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Poser sold to Rendo

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
It's what the avid posers wanted. They wanted to go their own way.. so go ahead. Honestly we haven't missed the Poser money.. it wasn't much when we stopped supporting the program, but A lot of people are still stuck in 2011, whining about the split... time to move on people. Like some of these commenters said, "If you want to use Genesis, use DAZ Studio".. your wish was granted. Can't be mad at that.
Again, I think you may saying more about yourself as a vendor than you realize. Both Daz Studio and Poser users read these threads.

I also think you're feeding an Us vs Them scenario that wasn't present here until now and it would be unwise to continue it.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
That's what I'm saying looking at this convo before I jumped in. Why even bring it up? Let rendo try to figure out the code and see if they can do better with it than the Portugal team. Don't put the cart before the horse and get into these wish lists and fights over third party figures. It's futile until they get a handle on putting out a bug fix, since they're a company that sells website software, not graphics.
It was brought up as an observation on what people are asking for and discussion followed explaining why people need to stop asking about this. Who are you to come in and tell us what we can and can't talk about here?
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
"It's what the avid posers wanted" Didn't the avid DAZ users want it as well?

No. They already had the figure.

That's why I said this is the same whining from 2011.
If something from 2011 is still an issue then perhaps more discussion and education is needed to put it to rest. Calling people whiners doesn't go very far in getting to that end.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Well, gee...I would call that an incorrect or unexpected result! The Morphing Tool is part of Poser, correct? If it's a third party add-on, then OK...but if it's part of Poser, then yeah, I'd call it a bug. No feature within an application should cause other functions of the application to "blow up".
Dana
Yes, the "Morphing Tool" is part of Poser. The info about it requiring unimesh geometry (which Poser doesn't support) came from Larry Weinberg himself, which explains why sometimes models explode (spike out) when using it to create and correct JCMs.

And they already addressed that issue Ken reported with the pre and post transform changes.

I have no idea what the future holds for Poser, but there's one thing I guarantee - they're not going to re-write the program so that it breaks every product ever created for Poser and say "just start over." I'd bet you can take that one to the bank.
I just wanted to clarify that those pre and post conversions are actually the workaround Larry kindly came up with to allow me to finish a product I was stuck with for months because of this issue. In his own words, this is NOT a fix, but just a workaround. It's quite cumbersome, and there were many occasions when I forgot to convert it back before posing the figure, which resulted into *permanently* destroying my morph correction. To put things in perspective, a JCM adjustment may take dozens of pose changes to test for distortions, and we are expected to convert between pre and post pending every time. Forget once, and your work is compromised. This is not acceptable, and they Poser dev team knows that. This is just ONE of the many ramifications of Poser using non-unimesh geometry internally. There are many other issues caused by this.

Another thing I wanted to clarify was that rewriting Poser from scratch does NOT mean making it incompatible with existing contents. That wouldn't even make sense. Remember DAZ Studio was rewritten to support the Genesis platform, and it still supports all legacy contents? That would be the same with Poser, except that now it would work with unimesh geometry internally, and they could take this opportunity to improve performance.

Now coming back to Earth, all this would be in the unlike event that Rendo decides to fix Poser at that level. The old dev team was very weary about doing it, because of the obvious complexity and time it would take. If we ask the general user, they probably won't care for this, and just want Poser 12 as soon as possible with shiny new features, which is what SMS was doing until now.

One thing I'd like to see Poser have is the ability to export and re-import rigged figures.
Poser can already export rigged figures. Just export your figure to FBX. However, importing it back would be a problem, because a lot of the weight maps info is lost when exported outside of Poser. Native Poser figures use TriAx rigging (I am borrowing the name from DS because in Poser it's the same, but it doesn't have a fancy name), and FBX uses "simple bone" with only a single map per joint, which is what the latest Genesis figures in DS are using these days. It's relatively simple to convert TriAx to simple bone, but the other way around is not trivial.
 

Janet

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
The only way I found to export it and import it is with a script from Colorcurvature on Renderosity. Glitterati told me about it.
 

tparo

Brilliant
QAV-BEE
Again, I think you may saying more about yourself as a vendor than you realize. Both Daz Studio and Poser users read these threads.

I also think you're feeding an Us vs Them scenario that wasn't present here until now and it would be unwise to continue it.
Sorry Lisa but the us vs them scenario is here and has always been. You are criticising one person for things they have said, if that was anyone else you wouldn't have mentioned it.
The whole Genesis thing was introduced by Rae 134 who was ''laughing'' at the people requesting Genesis work in Poser, a comment that came out of the blue but then when it sparks other comments and some people get slapped down.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
Sorry Lisa but the us vs them scenario is here and has always been. You are criticising one person for things they have said, if that was anyone else you wouldn't have mentioned it.
The whole Genesis thing was introduced by Rae 134 who was ''laughing'' at the people requesting Genesis work in Poser, a comment that came out of the blue but then when it sparks other comments and some people get slapped down.
The Us vs Them scenario is alive and well in every forum I have ever visited on any subject. So, no, it's not just here.

The person I responded to showed up at exactly the time Daz was mentioned and told us to stop talking about it. The discussion was about the technical aspects.

We strive to put our past differences behind us and move forward in a more unified way. We are not wrong to tell our story, defend ourselves, dispel myths, or to correct the record on anything that concerns our company.

You know what? I saw a lot of posts on social media and in other forums requesting Genesis in Poser and I was laughing, too. People just don't understand, after all of these years, why it's not so easy to do.

There was nothing out of line with the discussion until someone stepped in and said it had to stop.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
You know what? I saw a lot of posts on social media and in other forums requesting Genesis in Poser and I was laughing, too. People just don't understand, after all of these years, why it's not so easy to do.
I remember Smith Micro having publicly stated in more than one occasion that Genesis would NEVER be supported in Poser because of legal reasons - that's intellectual property of DAZ3D, and they cannot use it, even if they wanted to. However, there were no lack of people accusing SMS of avoiding the question, as if they haven't already answered it in public in official capacity. Sometimes it seems like people won't take the actual answer, either because they didn't read it, or because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

There were also myths and rumors about DAZ offering to help SMS to support Genesis in Poser, but that SMS had supposedly refused the offer. That has never happened, but we still have people strongly believing and spreading this as if it were true. Even nowadays, I sometimes still see people saying this in the forums. Having worked with SMS as a beta-tester, I've got insider (first hand) information that confirmed that this has never happened. It's just spread misinformation to cause confusion.
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I feel exasperation rather than humor with each comment I read requesting/demanding Genesis in Poser. Especially, the ones that imply any further development of Poser is a waste of time if the priority isn't getting Genesis in Poser.

I can understand ... and even almost sympathize with ... the people want Genesis in Poser because they don't really want to use DS, but are now using it so they can use DAZ figures and content. I can even understand the people who still use Poser, but are frustrated because they want to use Genesis for one reason or another. DAZ does have the biggest presence and have successfully positioned their store in the minds of many people as the preferred figure/content provider. A belief I personally find rather frustrating. Just as I find it rather frustrating that some of my favorite content creators now create content exclusively for Genesis or DS.

However, while HiveWire isn't as big a presence as DAZ, HiveWire is far more impressive. Rather than support the divide between Poser and DS by developing figures and content exclusively for one program while disregarding the users of the other program, HiveWire puts in the extra time and work to fully support both groups of users. HiveWire doesn't shift the blame to someone else or take the stance it can't be done because of different technology in each program. They did and do what was and is needed to provide versions of their figures that work natively in each program. This with an incredibly small staff. But that staff has an immense knowledge of both DS and Poser. They, as well as all the CAs here who support both DS and Poser amaze me, and I respect and admire each and every one of them.

Which sometimes (or often) makes me feel like a hypocrite or that I'm not pulling my own weight because I only support Poser. As I've mentioned before, I'm a programmer analyst, which means I do more than just write code. I'm also responsible for evaluating and determining my client's needs in providing, tracking, and electronic billing of case management, medical, and psychiatric services to people with severe mental illness, as well as researching and implementing program changes because of changing federal or payer requirements or regulations. I'm not just project lead, but the entire team. In addition, I support the programmer analyst who is creating the web version of the application. It's not at all uncommon for us to talk outside work about issues or problems he's encountering. This includes evenings, weekends, holidays, as well as days one or the other is home sick or on vacation. I'm so exhausted at the end of the work day and the end of the week from work, that I just don't have the energy to struggle with a program that doesn't make sense to me. I do intend to learn what I need to support DS, but realistically, it's probably going to be after I retire (and I again have a second computer because I am reluctant to install DS on my production computer).


Now, I need to go shop for a night guard for my teeth, because my periodontist informed me today I'm grinding my teeth at night! I've NEVER had that problem before. Apparently, it may be associated with high blood pressure or taking medication for high blood pressure. I'm not totally clear what she said when I mentioned I'm on medication for (not really that high) blood pressure. I've always had low blood pressure, so I was rather surprised when my doctor told me several months ago he was going to put me on medication. I hate taking medication (which is stressful to me), and it doesn't help that the FDA keeps expanding the recalls of blood pressure medication.
 

Hornet3d

Distinguished
I feel exasperation rather than humor with each comment I read requesting/demanding Genesis in Poser. Especially, the ones that imply any further development of Poser is a waste of time if the priority isn't getting Genesis in Poser.

I can understand ... and even almost sympathize with ... the people want Genesis in Poser because they don't really want to use DS, but are now using it so they can use DAZ figures and content. I can even understand the people who still use Poser, but are frustrated because they want to use Genesis for one reason or another. DAZ does have the biggest presence and have successfully positioned their store in the minds of many people as the preferred figure/content provider. A belief I personally find rather frustrating. Just as I find it rather frustrating that some of my favorite content creators now create content exclusively for Genesis or DS.

However, while HiveWire isn't as big a presence as DAZ, HiveWire is far more impressive. Rather than support the divide between Poser and DS by developing figures and content exclusively for one program while disregarding the users of the other program, HiveWire puts in the extra time and work to fully support both groups of users. HiveWire doesn't shift the blame to someone else or take the stance it can't be done because of different technology in each program. They did and do what was and is needed to provide versions of their figures that work natively in each program. This with an incredibly small staff. But that staff has an immense knowledge of both DS and Poser. They, as well as all the CAs here who support both DS and Poser amaze me, and I respect and admire each and every one of them.

Which sometimes (or often) makes me feel like a hypocrite or that I'm not pulling my own weight because I only support Poser. As I've mentioned before, I'm a programmer analyst, which means I do more than just write code. I'm also responsible for evaluating and determining my client's needs in providing, tracking, and electronic billing of case management, medical, and psychiatric services to people with severe mental illness, as well as researching and implementing program changes because of changing federal or payer requirements or regulations. I'm not just project lead, but the entire team. In addition, I support the programmer analyst who is creating the web version of the application. It's not at all uncommon for us to talk outside work about issues or problems he's encountering. This includes evenings, weekends, holidays, as well as days one or the other is home sick or on vacation. I'm so exhausted at the end of the work day and the end of the week from work, that I just don't have the energy to struggle with a program that doesn't make sense to me. I do intend to learn what I need to support DS, but realistically, it's probably going to be after I retire (and I again have a second computer because I am reluctant to install DS on my production computer).


Now, I need to go shop for a night guard for my teeth, because my periodontist informed me today I'm grinding my teeth at night! I've NEVER had that problem before. Apparently, it may be associated with high blood pressure or taking medication for high blood pressure. I'm not totally clear what she said when I mentioned I'm on medication for (not really that high) blood pressure. I've always had low blood pressure, so I was rather surprised when my doctor told me several months ago he was going to put me on medication. I hate taking medication (which is stressful to me), and it doesn't help that the FDA keeps expanding the recalls of blood pressure medication.

I don't feel you should have any feeling of being a hypocrite because you only support Poser, OK I use Poser but I would be saying the same thing it you only supported DS. The hypocrites are the ones who profess to want the best for Poser and then go on to tear it to shreds when they not only don't use it but never intend to. I admire Hivewire because they do support both Poser and DS and, although they are a small team, they are able to concentrate their time and effort to this aim. You on the other hand has a complex and clearly demanding job on top of any support for 3D art, the fact you support either is a benefit to the wider community.

I am not sure about other countries but in the UK the 'you grind your teeth at night' seems to the latest money maker here for certain dentists. I was with one dentist for over thirty years until he retired and went to a new dentist who told me the same thing. I was about to spend a lot of money when I bumped into my old dentist and we went for a coffee. He was a little annoyed to find I was considering having treatment for grinding my teeth and told me if he had seen any such evidence he would have told me. Strangely, since changing dentists I have has some work done (after he had shown my on my x-rays slides what issues I had) but has never once suggested I grind my teeth in my sleep. Since then a number of my friends and family have suddenly been advised the same thing so it is reaching epidemic proportions unless I live in the strange pocket of people.
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Thanks for your comment, Hornet.

I've no doubt some dentists use teeth grinding as a nice little source of additional income. Just like they do with the current teeth whitening fad. However, my periodontist explained why she felt I was grinding my teeth, then recommended I try an over the counter night guard. Consequently, she's not making any money from a diagnosis of teeth grinding. At least ... not at this point. She did say I might want to consider a customized night guard if I find the over the counter night guards don't last, and if I am able to tolerate a night guard. She said some people can't. But it's just as likely an over the counter night guard is all I will need.

Given I've started experiencing borderline headaches daily, and I feel a lot of tension in my neck and shoulders ... and jaw, grinding my teeth at night isn't really that surprising or unexpected. After thinking about it a bit today, I also remember noting a few times when I've been on the edge of sleep or waking up that I have been grinding my teeth. The night guard is only going to help prevent damage to my teeth, it's not going to solve whatever is causing the tension. That's what I will need to address. Since I see my doctor next week, I should probably discuss it with him. Although, even better would be if I start meditating again. Things like this are definitely signs I've let things get a wee bit out of control.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Sounds like meditation is called for Satira, though I'm quite the opposite. When I'm tense, the only thing that helps me get rid of the tension is to exercise, or in more recent years, take power walks for 1/2 hour. Fifteen minutes out, and fifteen minutes back, and by the time I'm home again, I'm pumped, but a good pumped, and I can then relax, enjoy dinner and the rest of the evening.

Unfortunately, power walks are on hold for the rest of the summer. This hot, humid weather is definitely not conducive enough for me to want to be out in it for any length of time, and especially not for a 1/2 hour.
 
M

Male-M3dia

Guest
omplished.
There was nothing out of line with the discussion until someone stepped in and said it had to stop.
I never said the convo had to stop; I was agreeing with your other members like Rae.

Also it is actually technically feasible to get genesis in poser, the biggest issues is the weighmapping and the subdivision. I think making content directly in Poser was the issue due to grouping and how Poser splits grouped items. Also there was code in Poser that ran genesis before the release of poser 2012. DAZ did fly their developers out to SM's California location several times to work with the old crew on that. Maybe if Rendo is curious they could see if that code didn't get thrown it out. It Also supporting Poser wasn't just my point of view alone.. yes, that's a lot of the PAs not wanting to support Poser even if genesis was include. Sorry if that upset you, but it is what it is. But you could ask vendors like 3DUniverse if they want to create a poser version of their products (he released a product on DAZ last week, perhaps you can convince them to make a Dawn version), you don't have to take my word on it. I'm sure it's very reasonable to think no one wants to go from making one set of iray materials (and maybe 3DL) to three or four sets and verify their rigging in two programs for the same amount of money.
 

Rae134

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Sorry Lisa but the us vs them scenario is here and has always been. You are criticising one person for things they have said, if that was anyone else you wouldn't have mentioned it.
The whole Genesis thing was introduced by Rae 134 who was ''laughing'' at the people requesting Genesis work in Poser, a comment that came out of the blue but then when it sparks other comments and some people get slapped down.
Perhaps I worded incorrectly (I've been sick and my concentration is not up to par), I wasn't laughing at the people, but all the "Genesis in Poser" comments being made on the Rendo Poser acquisition pages (and facebook) which is why I started this thread, to talk about the acquisition.

I've found HiveWire have always tried to be fair when there are opposing ideas/discussions, they will let the it go on while its civil but try to step in before it starts getting nasty if they can and shut it down if it doesn't stay civil.
People can have opposing opinions and not be wrong (or right) and "friendly" debate can be healthy (just my personal view), it can also be nasty and when that happens everyone can get hurt.
As a user of both programs I don't have a problem with either "side" (I personally think its silly to even have sides, as my philosophy is who cares how the art is made as long as people are creating).

:stopthewar:
 

Semicharm

Eager
Sigh... If you hear someone digging up the "what about Poser working with Genesis" dead horse to flog it again, just tell them it's Daz's problem, not Poser's, and Daz already addressed that with their DSON importer (well, attempted to address it anyway...) If they have any issues with it, take it up with Daz!

Simply throw the poor horse back into the hole, plow the dirt over and just be done with it. Admins have better things to do than scrub mud and bits of old horse off their boards. /s
 
M

Male-M3dia

Guest
Sigh... If you hear someone digging up the "what about Poser working with Genesis" dead horse to flog it again, just tell them it's Daz's problem, not Poser's, and Daz already addressed that with their DSON importer (well, attempted to address it anyway...) If they have any issues with it, take it up with Daz!

Simply throw the poor horse back into the hole, plow the dirt over and just be done with it. Admins have better things to do than scrub mud and bits of old horse off their boards. /s
Interesting that Lisa tagged me on a previous post to tell me I shouldn't tell people to stop discussing genesis in poser. I'm wondering what technical aspects of genesis in poser is being discussed on this post. Lisa?
 
M

Male-M3dia

Guest
Lisa,

Understand when I post, I'm pointing the DAZ PAs at the thread. I've been doing it for the last few days. (actually I do it every time I post) They've been watching through me. So they're seeing exactly what's going on.

Poser wants them to come back to their stable? You think this is welcoming them or enticing them to come back?
 
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