• Welcome to the Community Forums at HiveWire 3D! Please note that the user name you choose for our forum will be displayed to the public. Our store was closed as January 4, 2021. You can find HiveWire 3D and Lisa's Botanicals products, as well as many of our Contributing Artists, at Renderosity. This thread lists where many are now selling their products. Renderosity is generously putting products which were purchased at HiveWire 3D and are now sold at their store into customer accounts by gifting them. This is not an overnight process so please be patient, if you have already emailed them about this. If you have NOT emailed them, please see the 2nd post in this thread for instructions on what you need to do

Poser sold to Rendo

M

Male-M3dia

Guest
Thank you, Miss B! Let's get away from all this DAZ stuff and focus on Poser :)
 

Rae134

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
yes, didn't want to get into the old DS vs Psr crap, just that it was stupid of people to ask for Genesis+ to work in Poser. They have a free program that the Genesis figures work in if they want to learn it. Otherwise I think its great Rendo has a new figure in La Femme that utilises the new tech in Poser, now they just need to make a male and child version to help keep everyone happy. And of course our HW family works beautifully in both programs so I have no problems using both depending on what I want to do.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
One thing I am counting on was my last conversation with Larry Weinberg back in 2016. We have discussed the serious issues concerning Poser's inability to keep the geometry in one piece once loaded, where I have shown a long list of side effects that can break a content creator's workflow. He agreed with me, but made no promises because fixing this would require rewriting Poser from the ground up. It couldn't be done in a service release, but it could come up in Poser 12. Changes of that magnitude could break everything else in Poser. That conversation was a few months before SMS disbanded Poser's dev team, when Larry said they were about to get started with Poser 12.

Maybe Poser does indeed need to be rewritten from the ground up. Maybe this would be a good time to do it, since it's under new administration, and some of the old team may be coming back together. I don't think this could be done without at least some of them, and I would be more than happy to wait a little longer for a new version if that would be a REAL new beginning for Poser.

I am not sure how far Poser could keep going without internal support for unimesh geometry. For once, Reallusion has added support for the DS version of Dawn, but not the Poser version. Guess why? The exported geometry from Poser is different from the original, meaning all morphs and UVs end up invalid. They wanted to support Poser Dawn, but it would have to be unimesh, and Poser cannot work with that. The same goes with compatibility with DS and any other program - all morphs and UVs exported from Poser are broken.

This needs to be fixed. I know the dev team doesn't want to touch this lemon, but it's a reality nonetheless. I have hopes this could happen in Poser 12, but it will probably need a push from the community. For the most part, this only affects content creators. I wonder if it would be possible to get the community involved.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Otherwise I think its great Rendo has a new figure in La Femme that utilises the new tech in Poser, now they just need to make a male and child version to help keep everyone happy.
From what I've read at Renderosity, the Male version, don't recall the name if one was given, IS in the works. Whether they'll do a child version, not sure. We'll have to wait and see on that one.
 

Satira Capriccio

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
La Femme has a strange body shape to me, and I don't like how her arms look when bent. There are some rather nice characters with body shapes that aren't so strange, so clearly, La Femme has potential.

Then too, had HiveWire not come along, I'd not still be involved with 3D rendering, so I'd never have known about La Femme ;) I was rather frustrated with everything, and while I had learned how to work around V4's shortcomings, there's just no way I'd have spent another seven years using her. Since the Poser figures didn't appeal to me, and neither did any of the 3rd party figures, I'd have found something else to do with my time (and money).

Who knows ... I might even have decided to investigate renting space for a sculpture studio and started sculpting again. Or learned to play a Celtic Harp or even ... the Bagpipes! Maybe I would have written a book or a dozen. Or I might just have spent all my free time playing EQ2 and LOTRO.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
La Femme has a strange body shape to me, and I don't like how her arms look when bent. There are some rather nice characters with body shapes that aren't so strange, so clearly, La Femme has potential.

Hi Satira! Good morning. I just wanted to note for your reference that the La Femme developers heard your concerns and addressed them in the La Femme 1.1 update. She now comes with an additional set of morphs to adjust the arms when bent to your preferences. Here, I dialed them to 1.00.

ShouldersAdjust.jpg
 

3dcheapskate

Engaged
OK folks, I just read the latest . . .

"...We are building a tech advisory board and inviting some recognizable faces (or names at least) to join. Don't be surprised if Chuck "Nerd3D" Taylor, Larry Weinberg, Ted "bagginsbill" Czotter, or Stephan Werner make an appearance. (emphasis added)..."
Now if THAT isn't encouraging, I don't know what is!! :snoopydance::snoopydances::squee:
A triumph of common sense ! :applause:
 

Satira Capriccio

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Thanks Glitter. I did see yesterday there was an update and downloaded and installed it. I just haven't posed her since I installed the update, but I did notice the adjustments for the arms.
 

Hornet3d

Wise
Firstly I hope this thread will not get locked but I can understand why it might, but it is important for those who either use, or are interested in Poser to see where it going under new ownership. I also think we need to give Rendo a little space, it will take a while for them to complete the handover and set up a team to understand the beast and decide what needs to be done. As I have said before I do not see a new version of Poser, or even a service release, being just around the corner.

If Poser does have to be rebuilt from the ground up that is going to take time and it will create issues. My concern would be it must be done with some backwards capacity in mind, I am not suggesting we should go back to Poser 4 but what we have in Poser Pro 11 needs to be supported otherwise those buying it now are going to feel short changed very quickly.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Firstly I hope this thread will not get locked but I can understand why it might, but it is important for those who either use, or are interested in Poser to see where it going under new ownership. I also think we need to give Rendo a little space, it will take a while for them to complete the handover and set up a team to understand the beast and decide what needs to be done. As I have said before I do not see a new version of Poser, or even a service release, being just around the corner.

If Poser does have to be rebuilt from the ground up that is going to take time and it will create issues. My concern would be it must be done with some backwards capacity in mind, I am not suggesting we should go back to Poser 4 but what we have in Poser Pro 11 needs to be supported otherwise those buying it now are going to feel short changed very quickly.
I really don't think it is a valid concern, Hornet. Let me explain.

First, this "bug" isn't a bug at all.

From Wikipedia: A software bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

The meshes created by Poser's object save are usable inside Poser and causes no such failures. It is only 3rd party software that seems to have a problems with Poser saved object files - NOT Poser. So we have folks who use 3rd party products classifying things as bugs that are most certainly not bugs.

Therefore, I don't really foresee Poser's crew addressing things in a complete program re-write that don't affect Poser and Poser products.
 

Hornet3d

Wise
I really don't think it is a valid concern, Hornet. Let me explain.

First, this "bug" isn't a bug at all.

From Wikipedia: A software bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

The meshes created by Poser's object save are usable inside Poser and causes no such failures. It is only 3rd party software that seems to have a problems with Poser saved object files - NOT Poser. So we have folks who use 3rd party products classifying things as bugs that are most certainly not bugs.

Therefore, I don't really foresee Poser's crew addressing things in a complete program re-write that don't affect Poser and Poser products.


Thank you for the explanation, not being a creator I was not aware of nature of the problem.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
La Femme has a strange body shape to me, and I don't like how her arms look when bent. There are some rather nice characters with body shapes that aren't so strange, so clearly, La Femme has potential.
La Femme's body shape was familiar to me, as I have Gabe's (Blackhearted's) Girl Next Door 4.2 for V4, and it seems he likes that shape a lot, but yes, it was certainly different from what I was used to when I first got her.

Thanks Glitter. I did see yesterday there was an update and downloaded and installed it. I just haven't posed her since I installed the update, but I did notice the adjustments for the arms.
As Tracy mentioned, the update will make La Femme more like what you're used to working with.

Oh, and I, for one, am very happy you didn't give up on 3D, as your products, and artwork, are top notch. ;)
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
I really don't think it is a valid concern, Hornet. Let me explain.

First, this "bug" isn't a bug at all.

From Wikipedia: A software bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

The meshes created by Poser's object save are usable inside Poser and causes no such failures. It is only 3rd party software that seems to have a problems with Poser saved object files - NOT Poser. So we have folks who use 3rd party products classifying things as bugs that are most certainly not bugs.

Therefore, I don't really foresee Poser's crew addressing things in a complete program re-write that don't affect Poser and Poser products.

On one hand, this is not a "bug" on the strictest definition. Poser was designed from the ground up to work that way. However, this DOES affect functionality inside the program, though mostly for content creators. The Morphing Tool is one of my favorite tools, and it doesn't support split geometry as Poser uses internally. It expects geometry to be unimesh, but Poser doesn't support that.

The SMS dev team was very surprised when I reported this, and Larry Weinberg told me they didn't think of it, and were surprised nobody had noticed this until then. Well, I couldn't help noticing because I use the Morphing Tool to create and adjust JCMs, and my models were exploding, which caused significant delays in my store pipeline. I was basically stuck.

Larry has kindly offered a work around, which made it possible to finish the work, but added significant extra work to keep the models from exploding when adjusting JCMs and general shape corrections. Imagine you have to convert the model joints order every time, before and after any JCM adjustments. If you forget to convert it back after an adjustment, the work you've done until then will mangle up, and you have to start over. It's crazy!

There is also the issue of smoothing out JCMs over group boundaries with the Morphing Tool. This has the potential of spiking out your model - when it was supposed to smooth it out instead. Larry has suggested converting the mesh to Unimesh skinning beforehand, but when you convert back afterwards, the model can still spike out. When that happens, you've guessed - we have to start over from scratch. It's crazy!

All this because Poser was designed to split the models internally. Like you said, it's not a bug because it was meant to be like this. But let's not claim this doesn't have consequences inside and outside Poser. It does, and they are serious.
 

DanaTA

Distinguished
Thank you for the explanation, not being a creator I was not aware of nature of the problem.

I'm not sure what the "bug" is. If it is that exporting, which is meant to send something to another application in a prescribed format, is not working as desired, then it most certainly is a bug. After all, take for example MS Word. You wouldn't export a word document to be used in Word. If exporting a Word .docx document to a PDF format only worked when brought back into Word, that is a failure. It would, and should, be expected to work in any application that can import a PDF document. If it only imported back into Word...yes, that would be a bug.

If the export is not the "bug" being discussed, this does not apply.

Dana
 

DanaTA

Distinguished
On one hand, this is not a "bug" on the strictest definition. Poser was designed from the ground up to work that way. However, this DOES affect functionality inside the program, though mostly for content creators. The Morphing Tool is one of my favorite tools, and it doesn't support split geometry as Poser uses internally. It expects geometry to be unimesh, but Poser doesn't support that.

The SMS dev team was very surprised when I reported this, and Larry Weinberg told me they didn't think of it, and were surprised nobody had noticed this until then. Well, I couldn't help noticing because I use the Morphing Tool to create and adjust JCMs, and my models were exploding, which caused significant delays in my store pipeline. I was basically stuck.

Larry has kindly offered a work around, which made it possible to finish the work, but added significant extra work to keep the models from exploding when adjusting JCMs and general shape corrections. Imagine you have to convert the model joints order every time, before and after any JCM adjustments. If you forget to convert it back after an adjustment, the work you've done until then will mangle up, and you have to start over. It's crazy!

There is also the issue of smoothing out JCMs over group boundaries with the Morphing Tool. This has the potential of spiking out your model - when it was supposed to smooth it out instead. Larry has suggested converting the mesh to Unimesh skinning beforehand, but when you convert back afterwards, the model can still spike out. When that happens, you've guessed - we have to start over from scratch. It's crazy!

All this because Poser was designed to split the models internally. Like you said, it's not a bug because it was meant to be like this. But let's not claim this doesn't have consequences inside and outside Poser. It does, and they are serious.

Well, gee...I would call that an incorrect or unexpected result! The Morphing Tool is part of Poser, correct? If it's a third party add-on, then OK...but if it's part of Poser, then yeah, I'd call it a bug. No feature within an application should cause other functions of the application to "blow up".

Dana
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
And they already addressed that issue Ken reported with the pre and post transform changes.

I have no idea what the future holds for Poser, but there's one thing I guarantee - they're not going to re-write the program so that it breaks every product ever created for Poser and say "just start over." I'd bet you can take that one to the bank.
 

Janet

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
One thing I'd like to see Poser have is the ability to export and re-import rigged figures.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
I find the Poser talk about what DAZ must do interesting. Really they've done enough.

Yes, they have done enough, I think. I don't think anyone here in this thread is advocating for Genesis to work inside Poser at all, but are commenting on what people are saying elsewhere, with surprise as to how many people requested it. Customers make these requests as if it's such a simple thing to do but don't understand how really complex it is.

Then I see people doing their best to explain the how's and why's of what makes it complicated so that perhaps folks can finally understand 1) how big an ask it is, and 2) that it's unlikely to happen.

Yes let's let the genesis in Poser talk die, Rendo has enough on their plate trying to figure out the 20+ year old code base with the programming docs in german to be worried about getting 3rd party figures.

Well, yes, perhaps we can let it die when folks understand that it's pointless to bring it up and why that is.

Figuring out the code base doesn't appear to be an issue with the team Renderosity is assembling.

Why do you assume they'd even want to have Daz figures work in Poser? It hasn't happened in all these years for reasons that haven't changed. Why would they suddenly change now?

Besides a lot of vendors in DAZ aren't interested in supporting Poser even if Genesis was put in. DAZ vendors already done multiple textures for multiple programs and not interested in going back. We already have our workflows and don't really feel like adding to it. That's what several years of not doing poser stuff while Smith Micro ran the program into the ground will do.

Are you speaking for yourself or for all of your fellow Daz vendors? Because you're saying more about yourself as a vendor that I think you might realize.

Poser really is on their own, so let's see if Rendo can step to the plate.

Apparently they already have and are putting together a great team. Now to get the bases loaded and hit it out of the park.
 
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