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RELEASED Narrow Shoulders for Dawn

xyer0

Eager
Thank you! It went to the store without a DS version, but that doesn't mean there won't be one. I just need more time and more support from DS users. What I mean by that is that I have created DS versions of everything in my first 3+ years at HW, and they just sat on the shelves. Looking back at the numbers, they represented barely 8% of my sales, but 60% of additional production time since I am a Poser guy. At some point I just gave up trying, since the DS public was just not here for me. I hope you understand why it's not a priority to me like it used to be in the past.
I certainly understand. Of course, now that you have pulled me onto the Dawn bandwagon, I WILL be actively supporting the products you make for her, especially morphs that bring out her inner femme fatale, (which, thanks to narrow shoulders and Type 2 shall be INNER no more). Mind you, I'm only one customer; so, I might need your Patreon account in order to provide adequate incentive.;)
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
I certainly understand. Of course, now that you have pulled me onto the Dawn bandwagon, I WILL be actively supporting the products you make for her, especially morphs that bring out her inner femme fatale, (which, thanks to narrow shoulders and Type 2 shall be INNER no more). Mind you, I'm only one customer; so, I might need your Patreon account in order to provide adequate incentive.;)

Today I have tried to bring NS to DS, and though the shape has translated just fine, the arm skeleton has exploded. Under a closer examination, I have noticed the joint params in DS do not match the numeric values from Poser. It appears that each program uses a different numeric system to express joint positions. This means I can't just copy the values from Poser, and that is a problem because I can't determine in what position the arms will be when the morph is applied. In the image below we can see that Dawn's joint positions don't match between Poser and DS:

NumbersDontMatch.jpg

So to be able to produce a DS version, I first need to find out how to translate joint coordinates from Poser to DS. Not only the bone positions don't match, but the deltas seem to be in a different scale. It's things like this that explain why it usually takes me more than double the time to create a DS version.
 

xyer0

Eager
What a headache! I would hope that someone who does morphs for both programs might have a conversion table that they made to aid their own work. With as many ARs that come on the forums, surely there must be someone who can help. Perhaps Chris can put out the word for you/us.
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
Perhaps Chris can put out the word for you/us.

I suppose that would be Paul, for Chris doesn't do rigging. And this is not a morphing, but instead a rigging issue, because the morph moves the skeleton to a different place using animatable origins. I was caught by surprise when the origin coordinates didn't match between Dawn in Poser and in DS. It's the same figure, so I don't even know how that is possible. If Dawn was created in DS, and then exported to Poser, the 2 versions should have the joints in the exact same positions, but that's not how it is.

I have tried changing Poser unit from inches (default) to centimeters, for that's what DS uses. After exporting the morph, the numbers didn't change, so I guess it must be something else that is causing the numeric mismatch. I bet this is something really simple, but everything is easy after we know the answer. :)
 

xyer0

Eager
I suppose that would be Paul, for Chris doesn't do rigging. :)
I meant, that perhaps Chris could put out an all points bulletin to the hive to see if anyone knew the answers, or maybe that's Queen Bee's domain; I'm still a newbie in these parts.
 

Pendraia

Seasoned
Contributing Artist
Ken, can you use the bone tool, then right click and use the adjust to body shape command to adjust the skeleton? That's what I did with Diva. Sorry just waking up...I'm only up this early as I have a webinar on UV layout shortly. You would then need to use ERC freeze.

I'm assuming Dawn is exploding when you pose her?...I hope that's right.

Just had a quick look.

The icon in the layout I have is across the top of the screen on the right hand side. It's called the joint editor tool.

Dial in your morph

Your shoulder bones will probably show up at a different size to Dawn.

Right click on the viewport.

Choose edit/adjust rigging to shape.

This should adjust the bones to the same size as Dawn's shape.

You need to use ERC freeze on this to get it to stay when ever you use it.

Go to the parameters tab and find your morph.

Right click on the morph and select edit.

Right click again on the morph and you will get the edit menu.

Click on ERC Freeze. A dialogue box will pop up.

I normally just click accept...IIRC all the boxes at the bottom need to be ticked.
 
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Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
Ken, can you use the bone tool, then right click and use the adjust to body shape command to adjust the skeleton?

Thanks Pen! That was the first thing I tried, but it's something that rarely works on shoulders. It has worked with Body Type-2 because it doesn't change the shoulder bones, but it did a terrible job with NS. I wasn't particularly surprised, since it hasn't helped much with shoulder bones in the past. This is not new. The same happens in Poser when it comes to shoulder joints, so I had to spend most of the time adjusting until it worked reasonably well. I didn't want to do all that again in DS, since I already know the exact bone positions that best work with the existing weight maps.

I thought it would be a piece of cake to just copy the joint coordinates from Poser to DS. The problem is that the coordinates in Poser and DS look nothing alike. Dawn in Poser and DS have different joint coordinates. After everything else failed, I have tried adjusting by "eye-O-meter" by comparing the relative positions of the joint origins in Poser, and then trying to match it by hand in DS.

Below is an I-ray test render with Type-2 + 80% NS + Amelia face in DS. It's a pretty good match, but there are some slight differences in pose presets. Shoulder joints are VERY tricky to adjust. I would prefer to be able to copy the exact joint coordinates from Poser, but I can't find a way to do that. I have emailed Paul with hopes he could give me a hand.

NarrowShoulders_Type2.jpg
 

Pendraia

Seasoned
Contributing Artist
Hopefully Paul will be able to help...not surprising that they are different as they have different types of weight mapping. Shame that adjust body shape doesn't help...
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
Hopefully Paul will be able to help...not surprising that they are different as they have different types of weight mapping. Shame that adjust body shape doesn't help...

"Adjust rigging to shape" can do a great job in both Poser and DS, except when it comes to shoulder bones. Joint positions are independent from weight maps, since it just stores where the bones are placed at. I should be able to copy this from Poser to DS, no matter what kind of weights they use, but the coordinates don't match. This is why the body seems to explode when the morph is applied - the joint coordinates for Poser Dawn are way different from the DS version.
 

Pendraia

Seasoned
Contributing Artist
Would it help to compare the original shoulder joints between the two programs and use that information to set the DS version?
 

xyer0

Eager
Below is an I-ray test render with Type-2 + 80% NS + Amelia face in DS. It's a pretty good match, but there are some slight differences in pose presets. Shoulder joints are VERY tricky to adjust. I would prefer to be able to copy the exact joint coordinates from Poser, but I can't find a way to do that. I have emailed Paul with hopes he could give me a hand.

View attachment 36702
Thanks for going to all the trouble, Ken. She really looks aerodynamic, er, pneumatic. Excellent shape.
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
Would it help to compare the original shoulder joints between the two programs and use that information to set the DS version?

Paul has replied today, suggesting that the differences in Dawn joints coordinates are due to the scaling differences between Poser and DS. If that is the case, I should be able to convert one coordinates system to the other by multiplying by the scaling factor. I will give that a try and see how it goes. If it doesn't, I might do as you say, by finding out the scalar factor between the numbers from Poser and DS, and using that constant to do the conversion. Fingers crossed! ^^

Thanks for going to all the trouble, Ken. She really looks aerodynamic, er, pneumatic. Excellent shape.

Thanks! This has been a learning experience, since converting from Poser to DS tends to be almost impossible at times. If I can establish a way to convert joint coordinates from Poser to DS, that might be useful for future products because it's much easier to create them in Poser, thanks to the Morphing Brush. I use that to sculpt my morphs inside Poser itself - no external programs needed. The Type-2 body sculpt was entirely created with the Morphing Tool in Poser itself. In DS I have nothing to sculpt or correct morphs with, at least nothing in-house. This is why learning ways to convert joints from Poser to DS might come handy now and later on.
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
Ok, multiplication by the scaling factor doesn't work. Whatever the conversion method is, it's not this simple. I've noticed the deltas for animated joint centers are not in the same scale, so the problem is not just with the joint center positions. For example, if I translate a joint center by "1.0" in the X axis in Poser, it only moves a tiny bit. In DS, on the other hand, it jumps off the screen. In addition, the NS morph also changes the bones length, so I would have to recalculate the end points for over 50 joints all the way to the fingers. So maybe the approximation I've got is the best I can get.

There is one last thing I want to try. Maybe if I use "Adjust rigging to shape" to fix the joints below the elbow, and then manually adjust the shoulder joint, this could fix the pose preset differences that happen due to the bone lengths being different.
 

Ken1171

Wise
Contributing Artist
I have bad and good news. The bad is that I couldn't find a way to copy joint origins from Poser to DS. The good is that I have manually tweaked it to get a decent approximation, and the results look good. If we compare pose presets between Poser and DS, they will be slightly offset, since the joint positions are not precisely identical, but again, the differences are really small when we consider there are 20 bones between collars and fingertips.

The DS version has the same features as the Poser one, and I had it submitted for QAV today. When the product comes out, the DS version will be included. ^____^
 

Hornet3d

Renowned
I have bad and good news. The bad is that I couldn't find a way to copy joint origins from Poser to DS. The good is that I have manually tweaked it to get a decent approximation, and the results look good. If we compare pose presets between Poser and DS, they will be slightly offset, since the joint positions are not precisely identical, but again, the differences are really small when we consider there are 20 bones between collars and fingertips.

The DS version has the same features as the Poser one, and I had it submitted for QAV today. When the product comes out, the DS version will be included. ^____^


Great to hear though I wish it had not been so problematical for you.
 
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