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Dawn in Reallusion CC3!

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Thanks, Chris! I believe Reallusion seems the way to go for the amount of time, money, effort and tech they are putting into iClone - comparing to the rather stagnation we have experienced with Poser through the last decade. It has been a LONG time I haven't been quite excited about Poser, so it was good that iClone came out of the shadows to become what it is today. That doesn't happen by accident. It takes planning, direction, work, and will power to make it happen. SMS is still wondering where they want Poser to go, or what it wants to be, which is frustrating for vendors and customers. When I look at Reallusion, I can see clearly where it is going, what it wants to be, and how FAST they want to get there. I suppose it's a matter of management at the top levels - the guys who make the big decisions - what they want to accomplish and how much they are willing to invest on it.

It has been a while I have noticed 3DUniverse's presence at the Reallusion content store. I was always a fan, and I follow them wherever they go. They took advantage of the DAZ Genesis profile that has been provided by Reallusion for free to take their products into iClone and CrazyTalk. Since the DAZ profile is 90% compatible with Dawn, I have been using it to bring her into iClone with a few limitations (no hands or face rigging). I also pre-process Dawn with the Digimi decimator and texture atlas in DS beforehand, so I can place multiple Dawn's on scene with little performance impact. All of this will be greatly simplified with CC3, not to mention that InstaLOD seems significantly superior to the Digimi plugin from DS. It is also great to know that CC3 will work with quad meshes as well. That's a first.

I suppose it may not matter if my contents are for Poser or DS, since CC3 seems to have all the tools to make the conversion on its own. I know it's early to say, but that's the impression I had when I looked at the progress reviews. The hard part was to bring the base figure into iClone, but that is no longer an issue. I believe I will be able to bring even my Poser clothings into CC3, since I could already do it even without CC until now, using 3DXchange. I wish I could get up to speed with CC3 content conversions before the official release, like I did by creating contents for Dawn before the HW store was up and running. Those things take time to learn the ups and downs.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
@Chris , could you add some legal details?
If I understand correctly, with CC3:
a. existing [DS] content for Dawn family could be imported in CC3, probably not with 100% precision/all features (without guaranty), saved as iClone content and be used in iClone or exported for other apps. But the result can't be legally exported for redistribution.
b. a vendor could make a tailored CC3 product version and suggest it for RI marketplace (and probably HW) with an export license. (I presume Dawn family pack will have it too.)
c. but a vendor can not make a full Dawn-based character for IClone or licensed for redistribution. Or can with Dawn export license?
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I've been looking at Reallusion's site, but I'm still not sure what advantage there is to me for getting CC3. From what I've read, iClone is great for animators, but I don't see where it would benefit someone who doesn't do animations. Or, am I wrong about that?

CC3 looks really cool, but is it a useful tool for a content provider who creates characters for use in Poser and DS?
Just like Poser/DS, iClone can be used to render stills or animations. It's up to you. That becomes more obvious with the introduction of the I-ray plugin, which is quite suitable for still renders. And as Chris has stated, it apparently renders FASTER in iClone than it does in DS. Somehow ironically, Cycles renders faster in Blender than it does in Poser. I guess it's the way it is implemented that determines the performance. Since Reallusion works with real-time applications, it only makes sense that performance is important in their pipeline.

I am a Poser/DS content creator, and I see iClone not only as a new source of revenue, but also something that is flourishing like no other 3D hobbyist tool I know of nowadays. I miss the days when Poser gave me something to be excited about, and it has been a long time now. iClone is far from new, but it has become EXCITING, and I like that! It's good to keep the creative juices flowing. I don't know how profitable that content market is, but it's important to widen your portfolio in nowadays economy. Diversification is key, and I am all in to give it a try. I was already there as a user, and now I want to try the vendor hat as well.

Not to mention every time Reallusion showcases what's to come in the following months, they often baffle me with state-of-the-art technology you wouldn't expect to find in a hobbyist-level tool. The fact that I was a HW vendor when HW decided to join hands with Reallusion is more proof that I am working with the right people, who have vision and keep their eyes on the future.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I don't know the legal details, but I do know that iClone, 3DXchange and [most likely] CC3 have export limitations controlled by strict DRM protection. If you don't want something to be exported, it will be impossible to do so, no matter if you own the pipeline version or not. Therefore Reallusion has a pretty strong protection of how and where the contents can be used at. If you want your products to only be usable in iClone, the DRM can be used for that. If you want to charge extra, commonly even twice the price, to allow exporting to other applications, it can be done as well. If I remember this right, some contents at Reallusion have export licences available for purchase or upgrade from the regular license, and some others don't. When they don't, it usually means they cannot be exported at all.

When using 3DXchange, you can import and export your own models freely. It gives you an encryption key when you export, which has to be checked in when you import it back. If you export 3rd party contents, you have to own the export license, or else the operation will be grayed out. I am guessing here, but I think when you sell a product for iClone, you are given a choice to either set a price for the exporting license, or lock it from being exported instead.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
@Chris , could you add some legal details?
If I understand correctly, with CC3:
a. existing [DS] content for Dawn family could be imported in CC3, probably not with 100% precision/all features (without guaranty), saved as iClone content and be used in iClone or exported for other apps. But the result can't be legally exported for redistribution.
b. a vendor could make a tailored CC3 product version and suggest it for RI marketplace (and probably HW) with an export license. (I presume Dawn family pack will have it too.)
c. but a vendor can not make a full Dawn-based character for IClone or licensed for redistribution. Or can with Dawn export license?
Not sure I understand all of your concerns about licensed rights. But I do know this to start. Once our HiveWire content is converted to the iContent format and is republished by Reallusion, it will have their DRM proprietary protection attached to that product. This will prevent any illegitimate use or export to any external format without having license to do so. I hope this helps. It would appear that Ken may have answered your concerns in his previous post.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
For those that may be reading this thread and wonder if we're still going to be supporting Poser or not, the answer to that is a resounding YES. I personally (and a few other folks) have concerns on where Poser is going, and what are Smith Micros plans to keeping it moving forward in a significant way. Those concerns aside, HiveWire as it is now, does not have plans to abandon Poser, or the Poser users. We'll continue to do our best to make our HiveWire content compatible natively (when viable) in Poser and DAZ Studio, or as some call it DAZ.

We are very excited to finally be able to bring our HiveWire content offerings to iClone, Character Creator 3, and any other Reallusion software that makes sense for us. The Reallusion team is top notch and from what we see, and what we've been shown by them, there is so much that can be accomplished together.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
For those that may be reading this thread and wonder if we're still going to be supporting Poser or not, the answer to that is a resounding YES. I personally (and a few other folks) have concerns on where Poser is going, and what are Smith Micros plans to keeping it moving forward in a significant way. Those concerns aside, HiveWire as it is now, does not have plans to abandon Poser, or the Poser users. We'll continue to do our best to make our HiveWire content compatible natively (when viable) in Poser and DAZ Studio, or as some call it DAZ.
From my experience, I have been able to bring my Poser outfits into iClone using 3DXChange, which is not as friendly as CC3 will be, but it does the job. I understand Reallusion is in the process of phasing out 3DXchange by adding the functionality directly into CC3, which makes sense to me. That will reduce the number of programs involved in the conversion process, so we only have CC to deal with. While dealing with 3DXChange can be daunting, CC3 has a much more friendly interface to work with, similar to that of iClone, which is good for the sake of consistency.

If you are a Poser content creator, don't be discouraged by the DAZ Studio preference. If I could convert Poser outfits with 3DXChange, the process should be even simpler with CC3. I am guessing here, but if I could do it before, I am sure I will do it with CC3 as well. In one of the tech demos, Reallusion shows a pair of 3D shorts downloaded from some site, and then converted to the default CC3 figure using the in-house tools. That basically means that if you can load your mesh into CC3, you can convert it to CC3 Dawn using the same tools. If they have some kind of shortcut to make it easier from DS, good for them, but I understand it can be done with or without it. We will know better than CC3 is actually released and we can play with it and find out.

We are very excited to finally be able to bring our HiveWire content offerings to iClone, Character Creator 3, and any other Reallusion software that makes sense for us. The Reallusion team is top notch and from what we see, and what we've been shown by them, there is so much that can be accomplished together.
I think CrazyTalk Animator might be a target for HW figures. 3D Universe has already gone there with their toon figures. I can imagine how fun would be to have the HW Gorilla in CTA, where people can use him to create talking head animations of him saying things. The same goes for Baby Luna. I don't think they have a baby character in CTA.
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
I briefly looked into iClone about a year ago or so when it was offered for free briefly, but their 'Walled Garden' concept really turned me off. No dice. If I can't use the content I buy however I want, I ain't buying it ;)
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I briefly looked into iClone about a year ago or so when it was offered for free briefly, but their 'Walled Garden' concept really turned me off. No dice. If I can't use the content I buy however I want, I ain't buying it ;)
It's interesting that DRM only started with iClone 6, getting even more strict on v7. I am not a DRM fan, but I understand piracy can quickly eat your earnings and defeat your hard work to make the contents. DAZ has been gradually moving to DRM-locked contents, and Poser is the only remaining market that still doesn't use it. It's good on one side, but there is generalized content piracy everywhere. It's quite a blow on small fries like me. Almost twice every month somebody notifies me of thieves selling my models elsewhere. Sometimes they even try to sell my gallery renders at Photobucket, which is unbelievable.

So yeah, I hate DRM, but I understand why it's used.
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
Oh I do understand the concerns about piracy, I really do, but I still really dislike DRM and I think it's the wrong way to go about it. This is also one of the reasons I swore never to use DS again when they started the whole 'encrypted only' content. It's also interesting to see that they have seemed to drop that entirely, it's been over a year since they released anything encrypted only.

And while I do understand that creators want to protect their income from pirates, I am also a buying customer who have had legally purchased products become useless when the DRM on the product stop functioning for reasons (Games for Windows anyone??) but who thinks about MY rights?
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
If not for DRM, what other option do they have? And it's not that you can't export the contents, but instead you have to buy export licenses to do it. Even DAZ is doing that too, mostly because they have vendors selling contents at Reallusion as well. And considering I will eventually have my models running in iClone, I want to be able to have some control over where they will be exported to, because that often ends in commercial use. Hence the export licenses. The main reason why Poser doesn't care for DRM is because SMS doesn't make contents, so they have nothing to loose. Conversely, DAZ makes contents, and hence the DRM. Same with Reallusion. See the connection here?
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
If not for DRM, what other option do they have?
I don't know, but there must be ways of protecting their content without hurting their customers, it's time to think outside the box!
And it's not that you can't export the contents, but instead you have to buy export licenses to do it. Even DAZ is doing that too, mostly because they have vendors selling contents at Reallusion as well.
From what I can see, Daz only has extra licenses for using their content in games and such, because it actually redistributes the model. If you are not going to redistribute the model in any way, you can do whatever you want with it with a regular license
And considering I will eventually have my models running in iClone, I want to be able to have some control over where they will be exported to
Why? As long as I don't redistribute it, why does it matter where I use it? If I buy it for iClone, I can't use it in Blender unless I pay extra? That's just.. silly
The main reason why Poser doesn't care for DRM is because SMS doesn't make contents, so they have nothing to loose. Conversely, DAZ makes contents, and hence the DRM. Same with Reallusion. See the connection here?
Ans this is why I don't buy from them.

(Note: Not trying to 'pile up' on you Ken, I just really can't understand why this 'Walled Garden' is necessary)
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
I just want to state that I'm not trying to rain on the parade here for Dawn's release on CC3, I think that is great for HW! :wow:


I just wanted to point out that the concept is very restricted compared to what most folks here are used to.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
@Chris @Ken1171 thank you!
It was in the middle of the night for me, so I asked a rather convoluted question instead of the simple one.
The simple one is: how existed products for Dawn family could be redone for RI ecosystem from the _vendor_ point of view? Imported in CC3, refined and saved as CC3 products? I.e. customer should own CC3 and CC3 HW pack for CC3 to get, say, character to IClone/Crazy Talk?
(Got the trial versions and are trying to understand possible pipelines and how content works here now.)
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I just wanted to point out that the concept is very restricted compared to what most folks here are used to.
Just wanted to reiterate that the only reason Poser never cared for DRM is because the owners don't make contents. Every other company that does has to protect from piracy. As I said before, I don't really like DRM, and in some cases it tends to be excessive. Remember how many people complained about not being able to use Poser Pro when they are not online? How many times I was happily playing a Steam game, then lost internet connection, the game is NOT online, but it quit immediately anyway? I hate the guts of DRM, but still, I understand why it is there. I am eager for the day when someone will come up with something better than this, but until then, it is what it is. I truly hate it but it's a necessary evil, at least until someone comes up with a better idea.

The argument that Poser never had DRM may not go very far, for in case SMS sells it to another company, if they make contents, DRM will become inevitable no matter what we think of it. It's a delicate subject and DAZ has been walking on very thin ice trying to DRM their contents. I am with you that it sucks, but what is the better idea?

@Chris @Ken1171 thank you!
It was in the middle of the night for me, so I asked a rather convoluted question instead of the simple one.
The simple one is: how existed products for Dawn family could be redone for RI ecosystem from the _vendor_ point of view? Imported in CC3, refined and saved as CC3 products? I.e. customer should own CC3 and CC3 HW pack for CC3 to get, say, character to IClone/Crazy Talk?
(Got the trial versions and are trying to understand possible pipelines and how content works here now.)
The major part of the content conversions will be done in CC3, which has yet to be released in the coming weeks, so I don't know. Nobody has seen how it will work yet. Therefore looking at how the tools are now will not help much. However, I do know how it was done with 3DXChange until now, but that knowledge will not help with CC3 because brand new tools were added to simplify the process. So much that 3DXChange is planned to be phased out of the picture since CC3 should be able to do the job on its own. All I know is that CC3 will bring a new simplified workflow with brand new and better tools. In theory it should be easier than dealing with the cumbersome 3DXChange, but nobody knows the details. We will find out when they release CC3. :)
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
Got a quick question, I got the impression when I looked into iClone earlier, that if you want to sell content for iClone, you have to sell it through their store, you are not allowed to sell through other brokerages, like Rendo or HW, or even your own website. Is this still correct, or did i completely misunderstand this?
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Got a quick question, I got the impression when I looked into iClone earlier, that if you want to sell content for iClone, you have to sell it through their store, you are not allowed to sell through other brokerages, like Rendo or HW, or even your own website. Is this still correct, or did i completely misunderstand this?
I have no clue. Maybe Chris can clarify that?

Come to think of it, why would you want to sell it outside the Reallusion content store? That's where people go to look for contents, so it's the place your product will get the most exposure, and likely the most sales.
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
Come to think of it, why would you want to sell it outside the Reallusion content store? That's where people go to look for contents, so it's the place your product will get the most exposure, and likely the most sales.
Why would anyone look for content for DS outside the Daz3D store? ;)

I was just thinking about the vendors ability to have control over the conditions for their own work, where they want to sell it and what they get for it, and how much they have to share with a 3rd party. You know, options
 
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