Poser sold to Rendo

[Hornet3d]

Jenn Blake had mentioned, when I asked her about a few update options, that they were hoping for once a week for a while. The fact they're coming in more often means, at least to my way of thinking, things were found not to be as well set up with the first couple of updates. Not surprising since they had to get the first one out quickly to offset SM's closing down of their download server.

I'm thinking of unchecking the update option in Poser as well, as I have been regularly checking the Download page. Now if they would just update the date/time stamps, folks would more readily know if there's a new update, or not.

I think that is a fair point and if I did have an issue it is the policy on upgrading is not clear but it is a really minor point in the scheme of things. I may well be in the minority but I always look at the list of fixes on the update of any software and often do not update if the fixes are in areas that do not affect me. For example, if there was a fix for Poser that related to animation alone I would probably not update as I just don't do animation. I have a good reason for this, experience has shown me that often when something is fixed other parts are broken or old problems return.

 

[Hornet3d]

I understand that it's SMS who is shutting down their Poser licensing servers, which would cause Poser 11 and Poser Pro 2014 Game Dev to stop working. All I see is Rendo trying to make sure we get an update that stops that from happening. I see no evil on that for the Rendo side. They are just trying to protect our SMS licenses from voiding out, and I appreciate that they did it before the SMS servers went down, so we had no down time.

I am not trying to take sides here, but it was SMS who started the home calling thing - not Rendo. They just transferred the SMS licenses to their own servers to keep them alive. I think that's fair and square.

As I have made it clear in a lot of posts recently, I have had issues with Rendo in the past but there has been a lot of water gone under the bridge since then. I always try not to hold a grudge, life is too short, and I have nothing really but praise for what Rendo has done with Poser since they purchased Poser. Not holding a grudge though does not mean not seeing something as evil when it truly is and the licensing feature is a pure evil inflicted on us by SM. I have a lot of respect for SM who kept Poser going and added some nice features while Poser were in their hands. The licensing feature was not a good point and the underhand way it was introduced only made the situation worse making it difficult to stay loyal SM. I have always complained about the feature and even stopped using Game Dev as soon as I was aware of the feature and the problems it would cause both in on going problems and the horror it would cause if Poser was ever sold. Sadly I, along with many others, have been proved right to some degree but then you did not have to be a rocket scientist to see where problems could arise.

I firmly believe the horror could have been far worse and credit has to be given to Rendo for doing a great job of limiting the impact. It is clear that some have had problems but that would have happened with any new owner and those problems are created by SM's system and not the fix Rendo has provided.

 

[Hornet3d]

I think it's important to give Rendo/Bondware a little latitude with Poser. They put out the update in a couple of months after acquiring the Software, and putting together a development team. So I give them props , even though at times, I'm quite frustrated.

I agree 100%. I think their decision to have only one version of Poser was a great decision and gave everyone access to the Pro features either free or at a reasonable cost. I think the way they have treated those whose installations would have failed otherwise has been very fair. I do understand, to some degree, those who were happy with Game Dev who are now pretty well forced to use Poser 11.2 but at least they are not loosing features but gaining some along with a lot of content. The blame for this loss however, must lie squarely at the door of SM. The addition of so much content, including HiveWire 3D as another decision I fully support. Change is always difficult but I so far I what I have seen from Rendo has given me hope that Poser is in good hands and once they find around some of the road blocks SM left them, life should get a lot better.

 

[Semicharm]

I think the plan is to have updates on a almost daily basis and I really have better things to do with my time than continuous updates. If you are a beta tester or vendor that is another case entirely and I fully understand. For me, I have a working copy of Poser 11.2 with Bondware branding and with 'check for updates on launch' switched off. I intend to stick with this install until the powers that be tell me I have to install an update on convince me it is worth my efforts to do so.

I agree. If you're running OK with the earlier minimal "update" it'll be best to wait for the dust to settle and for more substantial updates that will come around...eventually.

 

[eclark1894]

IIRC, one of the earlier articles did say that the new Poser team was doing nightly builds, and one of the team, TIM has been posting to the Poser Forum and Rendo about fixes that they put out. I think they're trying to fix things that they may break as they go along.

 

[Hornet3d]

IIRC, one of the earlier articles did say that the new Poser team was doing nightly builds, and one of the team, TIM has been posting to the Poser Forum and Rendo about fixes that they put out. I think they're trying to fix things that they may break as they go along.

Lets face it, that is at least development, better than sacking a whole development team, moving countries, doing very little development and then selling the software lock stock and barrel.

 

[Glitterati3D]

As far as the "stable release on the 19th", those installers have been updated. If they were only for the beta testers, they shouldn't have been posted on the main Downloads page. The beta downloads are on the bottom of the Content downloads page.

I agree. They should have beta files inaccessible to the casual user.

This just confuses everyone and makes tech support more difficult and less reliable.

As for the changelog........I'm not touching that one with a 10 ft. pole as Jenn and I had that conversation during beta testing. :-(

As for supporting Bondware/Renderosity, I think everyone knows how I feel about the changes. And, Jenn took some time off after getting some tech support folks in place after the release. She's trying to get reacquainted with her family after 16-18 hour days for months.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Do you have a linkto the post(s) about fixes? I thought I looked through every possible topic in the Poser forum on Renderosity and must have missed that one.

IIRC, one of the earlier articles did say that the new Poser team was doing nightly builds, and one of the team, TIM has been posting to the Poser Forum and Rendo about fixes that they put out. I think they're trying to fix things that they may break as they go along.

 

[eclark1894]

He talks about fixes that are specific to issues brought up by users.

 

[RobZhena]

The tester notes indicate that the 9/26 files that I see on the main downloads page was an official release.

 

[Semicharm]

The tester notes indicate that the 9/26 files that I see on the main downloads page was an official release.

They need to get better at discerning which changes should be committed to the public releases. With the quick turnaround schedule they're under, they don't have time to get all of the changes working before the next release. Only fixes and updates that have been confirmed by testers should see the light of day. All other changes should be withheld by the dev team till the testers have approved each of them.

 

[Hornet3d]

They need to get better at discerning which changes should be committed to the public releases. With the quick turnaround schedule they're under, they don't have time to get all of the changes working before the next release. Only fixes and updates that have been confirmed by testers should see the light of day. All other changes should be withheld by the dev team till the testers have approved each of them.

I think they do need to sort this out, either by having it clearly listed on the changes or having one link for the official release and another for what I would call transient updates. That way users can make an informed decision on whether to upgrade each time. To me Poser is meant to be fun in creating art not providing a constant upgrade engine. The fact that it takes time to download and upgrade is one thing but others are paying good money for downloading the extra data as they are going over broadband limits. I know Rendo have a lot on their plate and it is to their credit they are trying to improve the software but the most pressing problem, that of installations deactivating, seems to be mainly rectified. Perhaps it is time to take a breath and work out how they progress in the longer term.

 

[Ken1171]

I am happy that Rendo is taking the time to *finally* fix the so many bugs that have plagued Poser for so long, and so many versions. SMS was capitalizing on adding more features instead of fixing the bugs. Just a pity this time I couldn't get into Poser beta-testing, since Rendo is not returning my messages. I alone have reported tons of critical bugs to SMS over the years, but that only has effect when done from the inside.

 

[RobZhena]

With fairly frequent updates. you're not that far behind the early adopters, Ken. Little problems remain, and any of us can put in a ticket.

 

[Hornet3d]

I am happy that Rendo is taking the time to *finally* fix the so many bugs that have plagued Poser for so long, and so many versions. SMS was capitalizing on adding more features instead of fixing the bugs. Just a pity this time I couldn't get into Poser beta-testing, since Rendo is not returning my messages. I alone have reported tons of critical bugs to SMS over the years, but that only has effect when done from the inside.

I give them a great deal of credit for what they are doing and it bodes well for the future, I would just like a better understanding of what they are fixing at each point.

 

[Ken1171]

Before becoming a Poser beta-tester, I used to submit bug reports and suggestions to SMS tech support (mostly John Csaki), which added a layer barrier between me and the dev team. It was usually a pretty waste of time, since John wouldn't understand what I was talking about for weeks, no matter how hard I tried to explain it. Once I joined the beta team later on, I could post the reports directly at Mantis, and get instant feedback from the devs. I could also follow the progress across a multitude of reports I had submitted, while with tech support I never went anywhere.

Dealing with the SMS tech support was an exercise on frustration, because there were tines when I really believed they were just playing with me. They said they used Poser, but that didn't match the responses I've used to get from them, when they clearly shown signs that they didn't have a clue on how to use Poser. Some other content creators told me they had the same kind of infuriating experiences with SMS tech support, and that's why it was so important to me to become a beta-tester.

As a beta-tester, many of my reports were addressed, and some of my suggestions were included in the next update, like the new "rotate" brush from the Morphing Tool. It was I who found out that the Morphing Tool malfunctioned when handling JCMs on non-unimesh geometry. I was shocked nobody else saw that when we can't create conforming outfits with JCMs in Poser without that. Now I have no idea how the truck loads of reports I had submitted at Mantis for years will follow up, or perhaps be discarded. Jenn has not been replying to my messages. It has been frustrating to be kept out when I was so involved. >___<

 

[Semicharm]

Before becoming a Poser beta-tester, I used to submit bug reports and suggestions to SMS tech support (mostly John Csaki), which added a layer barrier between me and the dev team. It was usually a pretty waste of time, since John wouldn't understand what I was talking about for weeks, no matter how hard I tried to explain it. Once I joined the beta team later on, I could post the reports directly at Mantis, and get instant feedback from the devs. I could also follow the progress across a multitude of reports I had submitted, while with tech support I never went anywhere.

Dealing with the SMS tech support was an exercise on frustration, because there were tines when I really believed they were just playing with me. They said they used Poser, but that didn't match the responses I've used to get from them, when they clearly shown signs that they didn't have a clue on how to use Poser. Some other content creators told me they had the same kind of infuriating experiences with SMS tech support, and that's why it was so important to me to become a beta-tester.

As a beta-tester, many of my reports were addressed, and some of my suggestions were included in the next update, like the new "rotate" brush from the Morphing Tool. It was I who found out that the Morphing Tool malfunctioned when handling JCMs on non-unimesh geometry. I was shocked nobody else saw that when we can't create conforming outfits with JCMs in Poser without that. Now I have no idea how the truck loads of reports I had submitted at Mantis for years will follow up, or perhaps be discarded. Jenn has not been replying to my messages. It has been frustrating to be kept out when I was so involved. >___<

If I were to guess, most complaints about the morphing tool and many other issues submitted by users and producers alike were ignored by costumer "service". How many on the old SM beta team were actual producers? The vast majority of render and animation artists don't dig that far into Poser to hit such bugs, but producers do everyday.

BTW only one of my bug reports that I could think of ever percolated up through the old SM dev team to a public release and it still took several updates to get there. And that was a simple and rather obvious content issue that effected everyone!

 

[Ken1171]

If I were to guess, most complaints about the morphing tool and many other issues submitted by users and producers alike were ignored by costumer "service". How many on the old SM beta team were actual producers? The vast majority of render and animation artists don't dig that far into Poser to hit such bugs, but producers do everyday.

BTW only one of my bug reports that I could think of ever percolated up through the old SM dev team to a public release and it still took several updates to get there. And that was a simple and rather obvious content issue that effected everyone!

I remember MANY of the beta-testers from the SMS time were content creators. I can't speak for the SMS tech support or the dev team itself, but I think the most active testers were content creators for the obvious reason - bugs can be showstoppers if they keep us from finishing a product. And when it comes to that, the original dev team was very conscious about this, and always took special care to address showstopping bugs FIRST.

I remember when I first reported the issue where JCMs couldn't be created with the Morphing Tool because it expects geometry to be unimesh (Poser doesn't support that internally), Larry Weinberg replied he would take care of that himself, and he came up with a workaround about a week later. They have never fixed it because Poser doesn't support Unimesh internally, so it cannot be fixed unless they rewrote Poser from scratch. Larry was considering this case when the whole team was disbanded, and I could never resume the issue with the dev team. That was just before they would start working on Poser 12.

This is a HUGE issue with Poser because chances are it will never be fixed. Chances are they won't rewrite Poser from scratch, so the consequences remain. Just last month Reallusion has failed to integrate the Poser version of Dawn into CC3 because, you guessed, Poser doesn't support Unimesh internally, so all of its exports are invalid. That's why CC3 only supports the DS versions of the HW figures, because DS supports Unimesh and Poser doesn't. I have talked to the guys from Reallusion, and they have tried, but the problem is with Poser broken exports.

I was the one pushing this issue with SMS, but now that I am no longer part of the beta, I don't know if Rendo will follow up with that. When it comes to integrating Poser with other programs, or even with content creation for Poser itself, this is a deal breaker.

 

[AnimaGemini]

I remember MANY of the beta-testers from the SMS time were content creators. I can't speak for the SMS tech support or the dev team itself, but I think the most active testers were content creators for the obvious reason - bugs can be showstoppers if they keep us from finishing a product. And when it comes to that, the original dev team was very conscious about this, and always took special care to address showstopping bugs FIRST.

I remember when I first reported the issue where JCMs couldn't be created with the Morphing Tool because it expects geometry to be unimesh (Poser doesn't support that internally), Larry Weinberg replied he would take care of that himself, and he came up with a workaround about a week later. They have never fixed it because Poser doesn't support Unimesh internally, so it cannot be fixed unless they rewrote Poser from scratch. Larry was considering this case when the whole team was disbanded, and I could never resume the issue with the dev team. That was just before they would start working on Poser 12.

This is a HUGE issue with Poser because chances are it will never be fixed. Chances are they won't rewrite Poser from scratch, so the consequences remain. Just last month Reallusion has failed to integrate the Poser version of Dawn into CC3 because, you guessed, Poser doesn't support Unimesh internally, so all of its exports are invalid. That's why CC3 only supports the DS versions of the HW figures, because DS supports Unimesh and Poser doesn't. I have talked to the guys from Reallusion, and they have tried, but the problem is with Poser broken exports.

I was the one pushing this issue with SMS, but now that I am no longer part of the beta, I don't know if Rendo will follow up with that. When it comes to integrating Poser with other programs, or even with content creation for Poser itself, this is a deal breaker.

@Ken so true. I had also a huge amount of reports because the obj import and export from Poser. At last I really give up on this .

 

[Ken1171]

@Ken so true. I had also a huge amount of reports because the obj import and export from Poser. At last I really give up on this .

No kidding! The simplest way to explain what the problem is to the regular user is this: the figure OBJ you export from Poser is DIFFERENT from the original one in the Geometries folder. Poser changes it, breaking each body group into separate, split geometry, so the vertex count is now different from the original. This has a wide range of ramifications:

* Every morph you export from Poser has a different vertex count from the original geometry. This makes Poser morphs incompatible with all other programs, even DAZ Studio.
* All OBJs auto-created by Poser are different from the original we first imported into Poser, no longer being Unimesh. These broken OBJs should never be used in commercial products.
* Rendering in external rendering engines (Octane, Lux, etc) may end up with holes between body groups because they are not welded.
* All figures exported to OBJ from Poser have split (broken) UVs, so those cannot be edited anymore.
* All figures exported to OBJ from Poser have split (broken) geometry, so editing them in external programs may open holes between the body groups since they are not welded.
* This also affects all of the Poser Fusion plugins, where all exported figures will have split groups with unwelded seams. These seams may show as artifacts in renders.
* The seams between groups may explode when edited with the Morphing Tool when the figure is posed. This happens because the Morphing Tool was designed assuming the geometry is Unimesh, but Poser doesn't support that. There is a workaround, but the issue itself cannot be fixed.
* We can sometimes see artifacts between body groups and textures in Poser renders because the figures have split groups with unwelded vertices. This affects both geometry and UV maps. We can resolve this by converting the figure skinning to "Unimesh" (Poser 11 only), even without subdivision.

This is a short version of a much longer list I have posted at SMS, but those issues alone are serious enough for concern. I first realized this when trying to create the JCMs for my "Superhero" outfit for Dawn, where the Morphing Tool ended up destroying the model instead of morphing it. That ended up delaying the product release for months. It had no solution in Poser 10, and was only "resolved" in Poser 11 in one of the many SRs with a workaround. Larry told me the only way to really fix this would be to rewrite Poser from scratch, but I doubt they would ever do it. LadyLittleFox has written at one of her paid tutorials that this was a major reason why she quit Poser and switched to DS. There was no solution in Poser 10, and she couldn't finish her product.

That was unacceptable, and to me, it still is. The workaround for editing or creating JCMs adds more work, making the process cumbersome. And again, it may never be fixed. Chances are the brand new Poser 12 will come out with the same decade-old broken core.