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Poser Rebelling. Need Help

Me195

Extraordinary
I have an unusual problem. I've used the Ruckus morph on Dawn to create a unique character without any issues. I haven't needed to use the match centers to Morph function or anything just load the morph and go. Yesterday I tried to load it and got this.
3.jpg
On the right is the character I made a couple of days ago. On the left is what I get when I load the ruckus morph now minus the smiley faces. At first glance you can see the shoulders and arms are distorted. It becomes more apparent when you move the legs. Like this.

2.jpg
The weird part is the character I made a couple of days ago still works. The only things that have changed on my pc is steam updated, windows updated, I installed a clothing pack for Dawn from renderosity, and I did re-download Dawn SE and replaced her files in my hivewire3d runtime just incase there were any updates. I've tried all of the normal things that one does when they are at a loss. I've reinstalled the old Dawn SE, I've uninstalled the windows update, I've installed Dawn SE and Dusk SE to a separate runtime with the ruckus morph, and I've even reinstalled Poser. Nothing seems to work. I'm probably just missing something simple and I'm just overcomplicating things. Any assistance or insight that is provided would be greatly appreciated.

PS the seams on the green female orc's legs and arms is from the way the preview works with normal maps. It looks fine rendered.
1.jpg


Thank you in advance to all who take the time read this and to those who respond.
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
So I have no clue on why it's happening, but I do have a partial theory on what is happening. Looks like the weight maps have gotten way off. Almost like they are on turned on double. Try selecting the new Dawn in your scene that looks bad, and then from the figure menu choosing Copy Joint Zones From. . . and choose the green Dawn figure from the drop down.

If you do that, and it fixes the new Dawn, we know that weight maps are the problem. However, I have no clue why they are doing that, or how you could get around it without having to load the saved figure and copy the joint zones every time. However maybe someone else would have an idea.
 

Me195

Extraordinary
So I have no clue on why it's happening, but I do have a partial theory on what is happening. Looks like the weight maps have gotten way off. Almost like they are on turned on double. Try selecting the new Dawn in your scene that looks bad, and then from the figure menu choosing Copy Joint Zones From. . . and choose the green Dawn figure from the drop down.

If you do that, and it fixes the new Dawn, we know that weight maps are the problem. However, I have no clue why they are doing that, or how you could get around it without having to load the saved figure and copy the joint zones every time. However maybe someone else would have an idea.

Thank you Gadget Girl for taking the time to reply. You are a genius. It worked. In fact if I just load another copy of Dawn SE and copy the joint zones it works. I check the messed up Dawn in the setup room and found her skeleton to be a mess, but I really didn't know what to do with that information as I don't have much experience with rigging in poser. The only thing I've ever rigged with poser was some old soul reaver 1 models. Anyway I still wonder why it just started to mess up all of the sudden. I have re-created the female orc figure several times testing textures. I only saved the Female orc character the last time I worked on her texture because I'm lazy err um I mean I wanted to be more efficient. So do you think that it could be trying to load Dusk's weight maps for some reason?
 

Pendraia

Sage
Contributing Artist
Interesting...is it because the rigging had been realigned on the Ruckus morph? I wonder whether any of the weight map was altered also?
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
So do you think that it could be trying to load Dusk's weight maps for some reason?

Yeah this is the part I have no answer for. I can't image why it worked easily the first time but not all the times afterward, unless you did some magical forgotten step the first time (which kind of is possible). The way to find out might be to load create one of these new Dawn/Ruckus figures. Then load in Dusk, and copy his weight maps and see what happens. If nothing changes, then yes, for some reason it's Dusk's weight maps.

Interesting...is it because the rigging had been realigned on the Ruckus morph? I wonder whether any of the weight map was altered also?

Pen might be on to something here. I would be almost positive that there were new weight maps for Ruckus, just because so much of weight maps do is make muscles look correct, and lets face it, muscles are kind of the point of Ruckus ;). That being said, the quest is did you get good Ruckus weight maps the first time, but it's not happening now, or do the Ruckus maps break things on Dawn?
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I don't have Ruckus, but i am betting that is from his JCMs.

If you have Poser Pro, you can alter those JCMs in place.
 

Me195

Extraordinary
Interesting...is it because the rigging had been realigned on the Ruckus morph? I wonder whether any of the weight map was altered also?

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Ruckus morph realigns the rigging. When I restore Dawn's rigging and weight maps to default the Ruckus morph works perfectly. So in theory if the Ruckus morph required re-alignment the Ruckus morph would be distorted by Dawn's weight maps and rigging. I think you're onto something though. I just wish I was smart enough to figure out what. Per your question I loaded a Ruckus infused Dusk's weight maps onto both a standard Dawn SE and a Ruckus injected Dawn SE. It distorted standard Dawn SE, but it did it differently. In the setup room the skeleton was not broken it was just too big. When Ruckus infused Dusk's maps were applied to Ruckus injected Dawn it actually fixed her broken skeleton, but the skeleton was too big. Since the skeleton was to bit it distorted Ruckus injected Dawn in the same new way as Standard Dawn SE. I'm not sure what that all means. I hope somewhere in there is some useful information. The question that has me mystified is why none of this showed up the first few times I injected the Ruckus morph into Dawn. Thanks again for responding and reading all of my rambling.
 

Me195

Extraordinary
Yeah this is the part I have no answer for. I can't image why it worked easily the first time but not all the times afterward, unless you did some magical forgotten step the first time (which kind of is possible). The way to find out might be to load create one of these new Dawn/Ruckus figures. Then load in Dusk, and copy his weight maps and see what happens. If nothing changes, then yes, for some reason it's Dusk's weight maps.

I very well could have forgotten a magical step. Sometimes when I am faced with a complicated problem everything makes sense and I blow through it without thinking. Then later when faced with the same problem it will confound me. My goto magic step with something like this would be Poser's Match Center to Morph function. I tried that with no success. Per your suggestion I loaded a Dawn/Ruckus and Copied Dusks maps over and It broke Dawn in a different way. It fixed her broken skeleton but the skeleton was now too big. The same thing happened when I copied the Ruckus/Dusk's weight maps over to Dawn Ruckus. Also I loaded a standard issue Dawn SE and Dusk SE and Ruckus/Dusk. I copied the maps from Dusk SE to Dawn SE and it broke her in a different way from the original problem but still with the oversized skeleton. The same thing happened when I copied Ruckus/Dusk's maps to Dawn SE. It was different from the original problem. The skeleton was again just too big. I'm not sure what that all means. I just know it means somethiong.

Pen might be on to something here. I would be almost positive that there were new weight maps for Ruckus, just because so much of weight maps do is make muscles look correct, and lets face it, muscles are kind of the point of Ruckus ;). That being said, the quest is did you get good Ruckus weight maps the first time, but it's not happening now, or do the Ruckus maps break things on Dawn?

That is a really good question.
 

Pendraia

Sage
Contributing Artist
Because Ruckus is so much taller than Dusk his rigging would have needed adjusting. Paul being the guru he is may have worked more magic than just realigning the rigging. I know that if I realign rigging in DS and don't use ERC freeze I have problems when reloading the file...that was why I asked. I don't truly understand how Poser rigging works.

If the skeleton was too big it sounds like it still had the full ruckus rigging and had perhaps overrided the Dawn rigging. Hope this makes sense...
 

Me195

Extraordinary
I don't have Ruckus, but i am betting that is from his JCMs.

If you have Poser Pro, you can alter those JCMs in place.

I would never bet against you. Unfortunately, I don't know much about JCM's other than what they are. I do know that the Ruckus Morph does load in a bunch of Ruckus JCM's into dawn. I do have Poser Pro 11, but don't really know how to edit the JCM. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I would never bet against you. Unfortunately, I don't know much about JCM's other than what they are. I do know that the Ruckus Morph does load in a bunch of Ruckus JCM's into dawn. I do have Poser Pro 11, but don't really know how to edit the JCM. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

Nerd3d (Chuck) did a video on the morph tools in Poser. This video is very informative, but if you want to understand just how to edit a morph in place, scrub the video to the 6:00 mark and he explains it very well.

 

Me195

Extraordinary
Because Ruckus is so much taller than Dusk his rigging would have needed adjusting. Paul being the guru he is may have worked more magic than just realigning the rigging. I know that if I realign rigging in DS and don't use ERC freeze I have problems when reloading the file...that was why I asked. I don't truly understand how Poser rigging works.

If the skeleton was too big it sounds like it still had the full ruckus rigging and had perhaps overrided the Dawn rigging. Hope this makes sense...

It makes perfect sense. It makes me think I am looking at this all wrong. I've been stuck on the belief that copying Ruckus/Dusks weight maps to Dawn should have the same effect to her weight maps as loading the Ruckus morphs. It's possible that when I restore Dawn's original weight maps it fixes the parts of the weight map messed up by the Ruckus Morph, but still keeps some the adjustments to the rigging. That would explain why it works when I restore Dawn's original weight maps. Of course that is all conjecture based mostly on my experience with programs other than poser. I don't truly understand poser's rigging yet either. I haven't rigged anything in poser since before it supported weight maps. Even if you don't completely understand how poser's rigging works you still know more about rigging in general than I do. Your input and insight is always welcomed and greatly appreciated.
 

Me195

Extraordinary
Nerd3d (Chuck) did a video on the morph tools in Poser. This video is very informative, but if you want to understand just how to edit a morph in place, scrub the video to the 6:00 mark and he explains it very well.


Oops, I forgot about those videos. Thank you very much. This will prove extreme useful.
 

Me195

Extraordinary
@Gadget Girl @Pendraia @Glitterati3D WOW! I just found the magical step I took that made it all work in the first place, and it was blind luck. You all three were correct. When you load Dawn then the Ruckus morph it makes adjustments to Dawn's weight map, Rigging, and overwrites some of her JCMs. When you load Dawn's Starter Morphs it fixes her weight maps, rigging and restores her JCMs, but does not overwrite the Ruckus adjustments or Ruckus JCMs. It works perfectly now. I just have to remember to load the starter morphs after I load the Ruckus morph. Thank you all so much. This mystery of why it worked the first time was racking my brain. I would have never figured it out on my own. Thank you Thank you Thank you.
 
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