Poser on borrowed time?

[eclark1894]

Having made a few attempts at making stuff myself, I don't dispute Bad KittehCo's quality or work ethic. Still, the last time I bought something of hers was when she was at Renderosity. After she left there, I lost track of her.

 

[Hornet3d]

Agreed hornet, just stating a few facts here that many seem to overlook, working closely with people such as Connie gave me a good inside look to what goes into making products like hers.. and I know it's breaking her heart to have to look for a fulltime job to pay the bills, as she simply doesn't get paid enough to live on by doing 3D fulltime. (just another nail in the coffin when you see her products being pirated like crazy)

I totally understand and, as I have said earlier in this thread, it is always nice to see the view of someone who is approaching the subject from a different angle.

On the wider issue, the bigger concern for me is when I see talented vendors like this struggle to make a profit due to a mixture of pirating, flooding the market with cheap goods and the short sighted outlook of the big companies. More and more vendors will just give up which risks leaving a market where only the cheap and poor quality is available. The loss of talented vendors harms both Daz and Poser in one way or another and while I want to see both survive, losing vendors will have a bigger impact on me that losing updates to my software.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Agreed hornet, just stating a few facts here that many seem to overlook, working closely with people such as Connie gave me a good inside look to what goes into making products like hers.. and I know it's breaking her heart to have to look for a fulltime job to pay the bills, as she simply doesn't get paid enough to live on by doing 3D fulltime. (just another nail in the coffin when you see her products being pirated like crazy)

And, again, my point was simply that *I* cannot afford those prices. I cannot, in good conscience, pay more for a 3D model than my monthly electric bill or cell phone bill. There are lots of folks like me who enjoy 3D but have to make choices like that. They may be very good quality, and I did not question that, but they are priced out of my budget.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

We really need a heavy dose of 'too nice' in the US! That and perhaps a few sessions of Kumbaya around a campfire :wink: Wouldn't hurt either if every elected official had the curse of pinocchio. Wouldn't that be ever so cool!


'Daz did this, SM did this and all the conspiracy theories' do get rather boring, don't they? As well as frustrating. I remember things differently from how others remember them. I have my own belief as to who is the villain in the story ... and nothing anyone says is going to change my mind.

What we believe is all heavily influenced by our set of filters, as well as experiences with both companies. Thing is ... most of what we believe ... not just about that whole debacle, but DS, Poser, Genesis, HiveWire figures ... etc., etc., etc., comes from what someone else (who often has no direct experience or accurate knowledge) presented as fact. I mean ... how many Poser and DS users absolutely believe the HiveWire figures are garbage?!? Usually based on statements presented as fact by people who have NEVER, EVER tried the HiveWire figures. Or who tried them once the first month, and decided they were garbage because they didn't have the bazillion morphs, clothing, characters, whatever ... they had accumulated over 5 years with V4. Or because Dawn was missing that little bit between her legs. Not that V4's little bit of geometry down there was all that impressive to begin with.


I love quality. I'd also love to be able to drop a fortune on high quality products (that work natively in Poser). But ... I don't have a fortune.

And if I did, it would first go toward ensuring my survival in retirement, purchasing property, and a right sized house (600-800 sq feet is actually overkill for me) ... preferably somewhere like the Oregon Coast, San Juan Islands, or a Scottish Island. I also have to wonder just how much time I would spend in front of a computer if I had that little right sized house with a garden filled with wonderfully scented herbs and flowers, fruit trees, and a thriving vegetable garden. Or would I be out in my own little studio sculpting amazing sculptures, wandering the beach collecting cool looking pebbles and sea glass (and then making amazing jewelry from them), relaxing in a hammock beside a babbling brook, gorging on freshly picked berries. Perhaps even ... gasp ... baking pies and sticking them on the window ledge to cool. (Yeah, that last wouldn't happen. I so would not be stuck in a kitchen like ... ever.)

I've rambled enough for the morning. I so need a cup of chai ... and a BLT! But sadly, a BLT isn't on the menu until after July 7. Nor is any other food (like chips!) that requires chewing. I'm really, really tired of eating mushy foods and would just about kill for a huge bag of caramel popcorn or bbq chips or a ... gasp ... steak. But, I'm not about to risk losing any bit of the temporary root canal filling. So ... mushy food and smoothies it is for 12 more days. TWELVE MORE DAYS?!? Oh lord. This is ... ridiculous.

 

[Ken Gilliland]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017. So SM is healthy enough to still have a pricey exhibition booth. For those unfamiliar with Siggraph, it is the yearly world-wide computer graphics convention and exhibition. There's some really cool stuff there like the latest developments in 3D technology (some big wows in this video), emerging technologies and their awesome Computer Animation Festival. I'll be there August 1 and 2 (Booth #1023 across from Microsoft's booth)

 

[Glitterati3D]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017. So SM is healthy enough to still have a pricey exhibition booth. For those unfamiliar with Siggraph, it is the yearly world-wide computer graphics convention and exhibition. There's some really cool stuff there like the latest developments in 3D technology (some big wows in this video), emerging technologies and their awesome Computer Animation Festival. I'll be there August 1 and 2 (Booth #1023 across from Microsoft's booth)

Very cool, Ken! I hope you have a great time showing off your animals, Poser and Hivewire!

I am very encouraged by everything I hear coming from SM at this point. Yes, we miss Chuck and Teyon and Deecey, and all the rest. If you run into any of them, please ask them to stop in and let us know they're OK.

 

[Glitterati3D]

I mean ... how many Poser and DS users absolutely believe the HiveWire figures are garbage?!? Usually based on statements presented as fact by people who have NEVER, EVER tried the HiveWire figures. Or who tried them once the first month, and decided they were garbage because they didn't have the bazillion morphs, clothing, characters, whatever ... they had accumulated over 5 years with V4. Or because Dawn was missing that little bit between her legs. Not that V4's little bit of geometry down there was all that impressive to begin with.

I will share part of a note I got from one of the recent Rendo vendors who participated in the Summer Fun campaign over there:

I have to admit that when I first made some clothes for Dusk and Dawn, when they first came out, they drove me nuts, so much so that I didn't want to have anything more to do with them. So renderosity doing the SE promotion has been brilliant as I wouldn't have tried them again otherwise and now I'm a total fan.

 

[NG Artplay]

Someone in a previous post commented that Smith Micro should figure out what they do best and exploit that in Poser. The one thing that Poser can do better than DS is Morph in Place and the morph brush. I love these tools. I wish that they would expound on that aspect as it's totally missing from DS. If DS ever gets a morph brush I might drop my Poser. DS is an incredibly powerful tool and they continue to improve it.
Yes, DS has bridges to ZBrush and Hexagon but I can't make the Hexagon bridge work (wish that I could) and I have to admit that I just can't use ZB yet and I would guess that most people don't own it.

Also a side note about vendor pricing at Daz. Daz 3D will sometimes change prices on products. Doesn't matter what price you put on your product submission. I'm sure it's to keep everyone competitive and better quality products with more options are priced a bit higher. I assume that they also take into account the discounts and sales that will apply. You don't want someone who has worked 4 months on a town scene with a ton of options to sell a product at $20 then have the 50% off sale halve that then multiple discounts and PC coupons to bring that down to $4. What was the point of working 4 months on the product? If vendors aren't making money or their items are being stolen for torrent (?) sites then what's the point of continuing to create?

When it comes to V4/M4 I've heard it said that the market is saturated and almost anything can be converted with some time and energy. I'm not sure that Daz would accept any new items for them, but that's just an opinion.

 

[Hornet3d]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017. So SM is healthy enough to still have a pricey exhibition booth. For those unfamiliar with Siggraph, it is the yearly world-wide computer graphics convention and exhibition. There's some really cool stuff there like the latest developments in 3D technology (some big wows in this video), emerging technologies and their awesome Computer Animation Festival. I'll be there August 1 and 2 (Booth #1023 across from Microsoft's booth)

Seems a good move to me, have fun.

 

[Hornet3d]

When it comes to V4/M4 I've heard it said that the market is saturated and almost anything can be converted with some time and energy. I'm not sure that Daz would accept any new items for them, but that's just an opinion.

I would suspect that there is a drop in demand for V4/M4 stuff but it would be interesting to see how much sells a Renderosity where there is still a lot being created for V4. I am certainly not against buying something for V4, whether or not it ever gets worn by V4 is another story.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Congrats Ken! That sounds REALLY exciting!!!

 

[quietrob]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017. So SM is healthy enough to still have a pricey exhibition booth. For those unfamiliar with Siggraph, it is the yearly world-wide computer graphics convention and exhibition. There's some really cool stuff there like the latest developments in 3D technology (some big wows in this video), emerging technologies and their awesome Computer Animation Festival. I'll be there August 1 and 2 (Booth #1023 across from Microsoft's booth)

Considering the title of this thread, that is very encouraging. You don't pour money into a dead product. Also I've read here that Poser Pro is too expensive. I don't know if people missed it but the sales regarding PP11 were pretty good. I've seen an upgrade as low 49 bucks American. I've seen 3D models at both sites that cost more than that.

@Ken Gilliland again. Have fun in MY neck of the woods, Ken! Don't be mad at the cost of parking. 20 bucks is considered cheap in downtown LA. I paid twice that much for parking when I attended the Anime Expo.

 

[eclark1894]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017. So SM is healthy enough to still have a pricey exhibition booth. For those unfamiliar with Siggraph, it is the yearly world-wide computer graphics convention and exhibition. There's some really cool stuff there like the latest developments in 3D technology (some big wows in this video), emerging technologies and their awesome Computer Animation Festival. I'll be there August 1 and 2 (Booth #1023 across from Microsoft's booth)

Thank you, Ken! And for the record, THIS is the kind of news and information that SM could let drop on the forums from time to time just to let us kknow they're still in the game! I wasn't talking about letting us know trade secrets.

 

[eclark1894]

Considering the title of this thread, that is very encouraging. You don't pour money into a dead product. Also I've read here that Poser Pro is too expensive. I don't know if people missed it but the sales regarding PP11 were pretty good. I've seen an upgrade as low 49 bucks American. I've seen 3D models at both sites that cost more than that.
.

I just came from the SM Blog page and the link to Poser Pro actually shows a $100 drop in price. Also, I got my PP11 upgrade for less than 90 bucks on sale. I had to wait to get it, but I got it on sale. Granted, it's not free, but hardly unaffordable.

 

[Glitterati3D]

One of my friends recently upgraded to PP11 for $49.00 during a sale.

 

[Miss B]

Yes, some of their recent sales have been priced very well. I sent a link to the last sale recently to a gal I've been chatting with in the Blender class I'm taking at Udemy, and she went and grabbed it up real quick.

 

[Miss B]

On a positive note, Smith-Micro has asked me to be one of their booth demo artists at Siggraph 2017.

Great news Ken, and I can't tell you how many years I've been wanting Siggraph to be held here at Javits Center in New York. I would absolutely LOVE it, but sadly I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

[McGyver]

Warning: The following does not represent the ideas or beliefs of Hivewire 3D, their employees, their families or pets.
In fact I'm not entirely sure it represents anything I think or believe...
It is merely an opinion and nothing more.

I really hope Poser doesn't go belly up.
I actually like Poser a bit more then DAZ Studio.
One thing I think Smith Micro has to comes to terms with is its presentation of Content Paradise.
It sucks.
I've never been inspired to buy anything there.
The crummy thumbnail image style thing was nice in 2002...
Not so much now.
I think for them to compete with DAZ and its splash-dashy style is they at least have to bump up the look of the store to something that looks at least like it was put together within the last decade.
I'm not knocking the visual style... It's the stupid thumbnail style... What, are their servers surplus TRS80s?
You get that feeling that they are trying to be stingy with the amount of memory the system is operating on...
That and charging for "extended download"... Really?
That's a little lame and technologically unsophisticated seeming.
I've always backed up anything I've gotten from them, but seriously it's very 1999 and not the kind of 1999 that makes me want to party like it.
Hivewire, which unless I'm totally not understanding what and who they are, is a much smaller company and they totally visually blow Poser's home store out of the water with both wings tied behind their backs (bee reference... Ya like that?)
Also... No forums?
There is a small lawn mower parts store that has its own forums...
Once again, I get it can be a nuisance to run one, but you grow a community you nitwits...
It's a small investment to cement a relationship with your products.
Especially now that DAZ figures won't work in Poser anymore.
How about not relying on fate and the love of the muses to get people to visit your site.
Really, how do people even find poser anymore?
If you read most 3D art magazines, online or made out of dead trees, you kinda get the idea (when they actually mention the "hobby" segment of 3D) that Poser might still exist... but... DAZ STUDIO IS THE BEE'S KNEES MAN... AND ITS FREE FREE FREE!
Come on... You are fighting a free program that is pretty close in capabilities and not even providing a forum for your long time devotees to hang out at and help convince new customers it's worth staying.
And running a content store that should be adding value to the built in figures that come with your program, yet if anything is confusingly antiquated looking and dull... is...
What's the word I'm looking for here?
Extremely short sighted.
I honestly don't know what they are thinking or if they care.
It would be a shame to lose Poser...
But sadly most companies chisel their playbook in stone and refuse to deviate from it... even as they are going over the falls, they'll swear it was a great idea.
As far as DAZ being in trouble, I had no idea, but they refuse to listen to what customers want and especially with that whole DRM nonsense a couple of years back, it wouldn't surprise me.
Whoever makes decisions there is gonna do what they are gonna do... Period.
You get this feeling they resent input...
A couple of years ago when I still cared, there was some issue with the store, several people noted it and mentioned it... It required you having to file a support ticket, which at the time was very wonky and hit/miss... So I suggested that if they couldn't fix the issue, make a sticky note on forums that explained the steps to avoid the problem.
No.
Instead they dumped the thread into a tread of other threads noting problems, thus insuring nobody would know of the problem unless they wade through hundreds of posts on widely assorted problems.
Then on top of that almost every time someone complained about the problem, they were met with a "yeah, it's a problem, we'll fix it someday" attitude like the person was stupid for encountering the problem... Definitely putting the blame on the customer not having psychic abilities and then complaining about having to file a support ticket that might or might not ever get addressed.
I wasn't the only to have suggested warning people because I did wade through hundreds of posts and saw dozens of other people making the same suggestion.
Why would you inconvenience customers for no good reason, deliberately, without even trying to warn them.
Now contrast that with my experience with Filter Forge
Where they had a sentence in an upgrade offer that was a little off...
It had implications of two meanings, and I assumed it meant the more realistic of the two, but wanted to point out some people might interpret it to mean a very unrealistic offer...
Which in the unrealistic world of the Internet might piss off some people, because even though it was a grammatical mistake, it's easy to fix and keep the peace.
One of the top filter forge programmers (I think he is one of the founders) who is often on the forums responded and asked "well, how would you say it"... To which I replied with a simple change in wording.
He thanked me and changed the wording.

Who looks better in a situation like that?

My step-grandfather once said this about a friend who owned a store... "You can only piss off so many people until you've pissed off everyone or gotten a reputation as a difficult person and are left with just those who tolerate you."

Megh...

It all is what it is, and long live Hivewire... The store with a heart!

 

[eclark1894]

Warning: The following does not represent the ideas or beliefs of Hivewire 3D, their employees, their families or pets.
In fact I'm not entirely sure it represents anything I think or believe...
It is merely an opinion and nothing more.

I really hope Poser doesn't go belly up.
I actually like Poser a bit more then DAZ Studio.
One thing I think Smith Micro has to comes to terms with is its presentation of Content Paradise.
It sucks.
I've never been inspired to buy anything there.
The crummy thumbnail image style thing was nice in 2002...
Not so much now.[QUOTE/]
No those thumbnails have always sucked.

I think for them to compete with DAZ and its splash-dashy style is they at least have to bump up the look of the store to something that looks at least like it was put together within the last decade.
I'm not knocking the visual style... It's the stupid thumbnail style... What, are their servers surplus TRS80s?
You get that feeling that they are trying to be stingy with the amount of memory the system is operating on...
That and charging for "extended download"... Really?[QUOTE/]

Yeah, that holds a lot of people back from buying.


That's a little lame and technologically unsophisticated seeming.
I've always backed up anything I've gotten from them, but seriously it's very 1999 and not the kind of 1999 that makes me want to party like it.
Hivewire, which unless I'm totally not understanding what and who they are, is a much smaller company and they totally visually blow Poser's home store out of the water with both wings tied behind their backs (bee reference... Ya like that?)

Also... No forums?
There is a small lawn mower parts store that has its own forums...
Once again, I get it can be a nuisance to run one, but you grow a community you nitwits...
It's a small investment to cement a relationship with your products.
Especially now that DAZ figures won't work in Poser anymore.
How about not relying on fate and the love of the muses to get people to visit your site.
Really, how do people even find poser anymore?
If you read most 3D art magazines, online or made out of dead trees, you kinda get the idea (when they actually mention the "hobby" segment of 3D) that Poser might still exist... but... DAZ STUDIO IS THE BEE'S KNEES MAN... AND ITS FREE FREE FREE!
Come on... You are fighting a free program that is pretty close in capabilities and not even providing a forum for your long time devotees to hang out at and help convince new customers it's worth staying.[QUOTE/]

Dude, where you been? Smith Micro has it's own forum now. Although I agree that not only should CP provide direct links to the forum, but actually, so should the software. I mean why not? There's a link to the CP store in Poser. Why not have a link to the forum?

[QUOTE/]

And running a content store that should be adding value to the built in figures that come with your program, yet if anything is confusingly antiquated looking and dull... is...
What's the word I'm looking for here?
Extremely short sighted.
I honestly don't know what they are thinking or if they care.
It would be a shame to lose Poser...
But sadly most companies chisel their playbook in stone and refuse to deviate from it... even as they are going over the falls, they'll swear it was a great idea.
As far as DAZ being in trouble, I had no idea, but they refuse to listen to what customers want and especially with that whole DRM nonsense a couple of years back, it wouldn't surprise me.
Whoever makes decisions there is gonna do what they are gonna do... Period.
You get this feeling they resent input...
A couple of years ago when I still cared, there was some issue with the store, several people noted it and mentioned it... It required you having to file a support ticket, which at the time was very wonky and hit/miss... So I suggested that if they couldn't fix the issue, make a sticky note on forums that explained the steps to avoid the problem.
No.
Instead they dumped the thread into a tread of other threads noting problems, thus insuring nobody would know of the problem unless they wade through hundreds of posts on widely assorted problems.
Then on top of that almost every time someone complained about the problem, they were met with a "yeah, it's a problem, we'll fix it someday" attitude like the person was stupid for encountering the problem... Definitely putting the blame on the customer not having psychic abilities and then complaining about having to file a support ticket that might or might not ever get addressed.
I wasn't the only to have suggested warning people because I did wade through hundreds of posts and saw dozens of other people making the same suggestion.
Why would you inconvenience customers for no good reason, deliberately, without even trying to warn them.
Now contrast that with my experience with Filter Forge
Where they had a sentence in an upgrade offer that was a little off...
It had implications of two meanings, and I assumed it meant the more realistic of the two, but wanted to point out some people might interpret it to mean a very unrealistic offer...
Which in the unrealistic world of the Internet might piss off some people, because even though it was a grammatical mistake, it's easy to fix and keep the peace.
One of the top filter forge programmers (I think he is one of the founders) who is often on the forums responded and asked "well, how would you say it"... To which I replied with a simple change in wording.
He thanked me and changed the wording.

Who looks better in a situation like that?

My step-grandfather once said this about a friend who owned a store... "You can only piss off so many people until you've pissed off everyone or gotten a reputation as a difficult person and are left with just those who tolerate you."

Megh...

It all is what it is, and long live Hivewire... The store with a heart!

Okay now here's where I get somebody's dander up. I agree with a lot of what you said, Mac. The best thing that SM could do is to put in a Gallery page at CP to feature Poser renders by their customers and using products purchase (not exclusively) from CP. Wouldn't hurt for them to require the artists who use products bought at CP to post links to the pages the products are found on. Come to think of it, wouldn't hurt for Hivewire to do the same.

 

[StudioMartillo]

eclark1894; You were saying?
Sheesh! Obstacle Course.