Poser on borrowed time?

[Miss B]

That's possible, though I wasn't really interested in rigging back then, so another reason I didn't need it at first.

 

[Semicharm]

I care about DAZ's fate as much as I do Poser's. I don't think DAZ and SM realize just how interconnected their fates are. I rarely, and I mean that in the sense of :"almost never" shop at DAZ any more because they don't really sell anything I need, or don't already have, or can't get or make somewhere else. Killing off Poser, whethere they do it or Poser whithers on the vine, does DAZ no good at all. If Poser's current user base isn't enough to keep it afloat, they're not really going to do DAZ much good. And there are always users like myself, who will simply move on to the next thing (Blender).

As I pointed out earlier, people were leaving Poser, and DS, long before the rift between SM and Daz started. Poser's old rigging system, renderer, UI, etc were getting long in tooth and competitors were eroding their userbase. Daz's flagship products where Poser figures and DS, essentially a Poser clone at the time. I remembered the days when the biggest sites had products for at least a dozen figures from many artist. Even by the time the Genesis bombshell hit, Daz figures were dominating. Their fate was completely tied to Poser and Poser's to Daz. However, things where shifting, even beyond the Poserverse, and Poser's fate still wasn't looking good. They tried working with SM, but ultimately went their own way to save themselves. Yeah, that sucked for everyone. It was not a decision made lightly. As much as I hate how it all went down, the competition did help push Poser forward, eventually for the better. I doubt that Poser would Daz has more connections outside of the Poserverse because of it. Daz also left a vacuum behind that others sought to fill, giving some much needed competition in the figure market.

Nowadays, where is Daz without Poser, or Poser without Daz? They still depend on each other, but far much less than they'd used to.

 

[Glitterati3D]

That's possible, though I wasn't really interested in rigging back then, so another reason I didn't need it at first.

I did because I learned rigging using DS3A. I used Poser 7 & 8 to test my products for Poser compatibility only.

It wasn't until the DS4 UI forced me to Poser that I moved to Poser only.

 

[Semicharm]

Then you will likely remember that DS4 was announced with the Pro version, the "temporarily" free version, until they could complete the final free version that would be ONLINE USE only.

But, the bottom line was simple. SM wisely refused to hook their software to the DAZ proprietary system just to make DAZ figures work in Poser. If they had gone down that path, they would have had to re-tool the software 3 times since DS4 was announced. First for Genesis, then Genesis 2, and now, Genesis 8.

In case you missed it, Genesis 8 is not even Triax weight mapped. Genesis8 is geared to the game industry, not the current DS base. They've just invited you folks along for the ride as long as you keep your credit card handy.

If they worked together, it wouldn't have been Daz's "proprietary" system. LOL

Instead, we ended up with two different systems. Daz still at least attempted to work in Poser, but it couldn't ever work 100% because Poser did things differently. Their online only scheme came much later, and was rightfully slammed by most users. I think I've only got one of their DRMed items by mistake, and it was a freebie. Nothing else I have is "online only". Even the freebies I got last week can be downloaded as zips, no "install manager" or DRM. The items that are Poser compatible can simply be unzipped to my Poser runtimes without ever touching DS. Guess you missed that part... And no, I'm well aware of Genesis 8, and don't care much for it, or Genesis 3 for that matter.

You also seem to forget that Poser has made many changes to their format over the years. Daz simply stopped updating support for Poser's own proprietary format. Yeah, that sucked! Till SuperFly came out, I'd hoped that someone would figure out how to get newer Poser figures working in DS, but DS users mostly didn't care. It was wall to wall Genesis! (ugh...) Genesis was nice, but I've always preferred a more diverse runtime. Even figured out how to get Miki3 in DS.

 

[Glitterati3D]

If they worked together, it wouldn't have been Daz's "proprietary" system. LOL

Instead, we ended up with two different systems. Daz still at least attempted to work in Poser, but it couldn't ever work 100% because Poser did things differently. Their online only scheme came much later, and was rightfully slammed by most users. I think I've only got one of their DRMed items by mistake, and it was a freebie. Nothing else I have is "online only". Even the freebies I got last week can be downloaded as zips, no "install manager" or DRM. The items that are Poser compatible can simply be unzipped to my Poser runtimes without ever touching DS. Guess you missed that part... And no, I'm well aware of Genesis 8, and don't care much for it, or Genesis 3 for that matter.

You also seem to forget that Poser has made many changes to their format over the years. Daz simply stopped updating support for Poser's own proprietary format. Yeah, that sucked! Till SuperFly came out, I'd hoped that someone would figure out how to get newer Poser figures working in DS, but DS users mostly didn't care. It was wall to wall Genesis! (ugh...) Genesis was nice, but I've always preferred a more diverse runtime. Even figured out how to get Miki3 in DS.

I don't think you understand what proprietary means. Genesis is proprietary to DAZ. Period. And will always be so unless they sell it to someone else.

They were going to "license" use of Genesis to Poser. Poser said no thanks because they refused to hook their software to a proprietary figure. As, BTW, did every other 3D company that was approached.

 

[Miss B]

Then you will likely remember that DS4 was announced with the Pro version, the "temporarily" free version, until they could complete the final free version that would be ONLINE USE only.

No, DS 4 came out with DS 4.0 Advanced AND DS 4.0 Pro at the same time. You had the option of "buying" which version you preferred. DS 4.0 Advanced "disappeared" when they made DS 4.0 Pro free, and everyone who purchased the Advanced version were able to freely upgrade to Pro.

 

[Glitterati3D]

No, DS 4 came out with DS 4.0 Advanced AND DS 4.0 Pro at the same time. You had the option of "buying" which version you preferred. DS 4.0 Advanced "disappeared" when they made DS 4.0 Pro free, and everyone who purchased the Advanced version were able to freely upgrade to Pro.

Right, but they announced that eventually the plan was to make the free version of DS online use only. That was the original announcement before they decided to give it away.

Here's the original announcement: DAZ 3D Ships DAZ Studio 4 Advanced and Pro Versions

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I believe I purchased DS4 Advanced, as well as as the Auto Fit Tool for DS4. The Auto Fit Tool was an additional $48.98, and I believe the price was going to increase after the intro period. I vaguely recall that the price would double?

I don't recall a free version of 4.0 being available when Advanced and Pro were released. However, within a few months, DAZ offered DS4 at no cost ... wasn't that to new customers originally? Which resulted in quite a number of upset customers. If you contacted customer support, you were able to to get a partial refund. But, I was also told not to discuss the amount of my refund with anyone. Since many of us talked to others outside the forums, we quickly learned the refunds varied, and that we were all told not to discuss the amount refunded with others.

Was an online version ever released? Or was that shelved when they decided to ditch Advanced and make Pro free?

 

[Glitterati3D]

I believe I purchased DS4 Advanced, as well as as the Auto Fit Tool for DS4. The Auto Fit Tool was an additional $48.98, and I believe the price was going to increase after the intro period. I vaguely recall that the price would double?

I don't recall a free version of 4.0 being available when Advanced and Pro were released. However, within a few months, DAZ offered DS4 at no cost ... wasn't that to new customers originally? Which resulted in quite a number of upset customers. If you contacted customer support, you were able to to get a partial refund. But, I was also told not to discuss the amount of my refund with anyone. Since many of us talked to others outside the forums, we quickly learned the refunds varied, and that we were all told not to discuss the amount refunded with others.

Was an online version ever released? Or was that shelved when they decided to ditch Advanced and make Pro free?

It was shelved before it ever saw the light of day.

 

[Miss B]

I believe I purchased DS4 Advanced, as well as as the Auto Fit Tool for DS4. The Auto Fit Tool was an additional $48.98, and I believe the price was going to increase after the intro period. I vaguely recall that the price would double?

I don't recall if the price went up that much, it was too long ago.

I don't recall a free version of 4.0 being available when Advanced and Pro were released.

I was using the Standard version when I bought Autofit for $48.98, and then that amount was deducted from the price of DS 4.0 Advanced when I purchased it. It was a short period after I started using the Standard version that the Advanced and Pro versions came out, so not surprising some folks don't remember it being available.

That said, I don't recall if DS 4.0 Standard was free. It's possible I paid for that, then bought Autofit, and only paid the difference between Advanced and Stardard MINUS what I had already paid for Autofit. It's been too long for me to remember all the facts. I'd have to dig out my Daz3d Spreadsheet to see, though I don't recall the dates, so it would take a while to figure it all out.

 

[Stezza]

I didn't buy it but did fall into the trap when they offered it to PC members for $20..... but I also bought Silo when it was on special for $10.... it's just something about that word 'SPECIAL' and the dollar being on parity at the time that gets me in!

with the $ being what it is at the moment it's not worth buying anything unless it is heavily discounted.

 

[eclark1894]

Wait, Genesis 8 isn't weightmapped, or it's just not TRIAXED weightmapped?

 

[Glitterati3D]

Wait, Genesis 8 isn't weightmapped, or it's just not TRIAXED weightmapped?

It is not TRIAX weight mapped. Only GENERAL weight maps - whatever that means in DAZSpeak.

 

[RAMWolff]

If she's General Weight Mapped then she should go into Poser as Poser supports General. There is another weight mapping procedure so it's probably that other one. I've learned to keep it simple with my stuff, General all the way baby!

PS, I did buy the full DS 4 Pro and paid up the wazoo for it but months later when it was made free everyone freaked and got angry... not me. I see it all as business and I've gotten some great deals over the years, including my license for ZBrush back when DAZ and Pixo worked out an intro deal, it was for ZBrush 3.0 but I didn't crack it open until it hit version 4, when Genesis 1 hit. So I can forgive DAZ for that rather abrupt change of heart from charging to making DS free. I'm like many, I don't carry grudges, they are too hard on my health and stress levels, it's just not worth it. I do feel that divide between the Poser and DS user communities and that's stressful and sad enough for me so I just mostly stay quiet when folks start slinging words back and forth.... just not worth it in my book. Onwards and Upwards my fellow Hive members. XO

 

[eclark1894]

Ahhhh, Earl, no one in corporate America operates like that. What you tell your customers, you tell your competition. We won't know a thing until it's near release.

To be honest, If Poser does consider DAZ to be their competition, all I can say is finally! I've only been saying that for the last 10 to 12 years.

 

[Semicharm]

Autodesk

I don't think you understand what proprietary means. Genesis is proprietary to DAZ. Period. And will always be so unless they sell it to someone else.

They were going to "license" use of Genesis to Poser. Poser said no thanks because they refused to hook their software to a proprietary figure. As, BTW, did every other 3D company that was approached.

A "proprietary" format merely means that a single company dictates the official "standard" and can change it anyway they want. An "exclusive" format is not only proprietary, it's completely unusable by any other company. The 3ds format is proprietary to the old 3D Studio. Though others have compatible software, the "official" standard still belongs to Autodesk. The max format is not only proprietary, it's exclusive to 3ds Max. People have tried for years to reverse engineer the max format. Any successes were ultimately fruitless when the next version rolled out.

Both DSON and Poser are proprietary formats. Other programs can read them, but whether they can use them depends on how much they bother to implement. As with any proprietary format, compatibility is still subject to the whims of the owner. Some of the older DS formats, such as dso, I believe where exclusive formats. People have occasionally asked about them, but Daz flat out refused to discuss any details. There's a huge difference.

 

[Hornet3d]

Skipping past the DAZ / SM bit because information from DAZ and SM varies greatly in who refused to do what ...

I started with Poser 5 (well ... after I'd been using DS for several months). That was back when DS was free, but you needed to purchase all kinds of addons to get a program comparable to Poser 5. Granted ... I will forever be grateful that I was able to dip my feet into 3D without spending a huge investment in a program. But ... I ended up spending the cost of a Prius at DAZ for content.

I too picked up just about every Stonemason product that came out. Even though it wasn't anywhere near as flexible as Faveral's or others. But when he stopped supporting Poser, I stopped buying his content. Just as when DAZ stopped supporting Poser, I stopped shopping at DAZ.

I have never regretted upgrading to Poser Pro 11. It is ever so much easier to rig clothing than it ever was in previous versions, so I'd consider Poser Pro 11 an essential upgrade for anyone developing content.

While I have yet to dip my toes very deep in Superfly ... it's certainly an improvement. The morphing tool was also improved, which makes it a lot easier to fix poke through or crinkled mesh.

If both SM and DAZ had the same mindset as HiveWire, we'd have a rather amazing little world here. Lot to be said for a company that values both its customers regardless of the software they use.

I too cut my teeth on Daz and the free software, if I hadn't have stumbled over 3D art and had the option to play for free I doubt I would have it as a hobby today. Daz lead me on to Poser but back in those days I still purchased a great deal of content there, now it is the very occasional item from the likes of Petipet as they are Poser compatible.

I have no axe to grind with Daz or Poser, although I became very board with the 'Daz did this, SM did this and all the conspiracy theories' discussed years ago and reaired on a regular basis. I do care about Daz and Poser but these days I am more interested in where we are than how we got here, based on the sure knowledge that you can only change where you are going, not where you have been.

I have stopped with Poser 2014 not because I think Poser 11 is bad, in fact there are a lot I would love to play with, I just cannot justify the price, the same would be true if Daz made Poser 11 and SM made DS. The same reason prevents me from using Genesis, I think it is a good figure but I cannot justifying the ongoing expense for limited improvements. Again I don't blame Daz for that but recognise the reality of diminishing returns. If you have a $500 sound system paying $1000 can provide massive improvement. If you have a $3000 system paying $6000 also has benefits but I suggest they are far more subtle than the $500-$1000 upgrade.

While I understand the drive for weight mapping and for photo realistic renders my view is this is misguided if done in isolation, no figure render is going to look photo realistic with the hair available to the hobbyist at this time. This, and the diminishing returns on new figures, explains why I have opted out at this point in time, at least from buying on any great scale.

"If both SM and DAZ had the same mindset as HiveWire, we'd have a rather amazing little world here." Amen to that, if we could take the Hivewire's approach and apply it to the wider world we could all live happier lives, well except maybe those that complain that the forums at Hivewire are 'too nice'.

 

[scatha]

Seeing as how I have never purchased a BadKitteh product (I'm sorry, prices are simply too high) I can't dispute anything you say here. But, frankly, some of these vendors are pricing themselves out of the hobbyist market - yes, I'm talking Stonemason, Aery Soul, BadKitteh, etc. If I DID use DS I wouldn't pay those prices.

Sorry, but what you are listing here are the top of the daz-vendors quality-wise.... I ought to know, I work with Connie and I am fully aware of why she left to RDNA. BadKittehCo is one of the few that doesn't use aids like marvellous designer in her stuff and aside from maybe Luthbel puts more morphs in her stuff then anyone else. What you pay for is QUALITY and a whole lot of working hours.

 

[Hornet3d]

Sorry, but what you are listing here are the top of the daz-vendors quality-wise.... I ought to know, I work with Connie and I am fully aware of why she left to RDNA. BadKittehCo is one of the few that doesn't use aids like marvellous designer in her stuff and aside from maybe Luthbel puts more morphs in her stuff then anyone else. What you pay for is QUALITY and a whole lot of working hours.

I wouldn't argue with that one bit and far be it for me to try and tell the likes of those quoted how to run their affairs. Something at a high price can be a bargain or good value for money when you see what is included but I think the point being made was not related to the value but the fact there must be a point where the price puts it outside what the average customer can afford. There are then a couple of options, break the product down so customers can buy the items a bit at a time. lower the price and hope the sales increase to make up for the drop or stay put and either hope the market changes or you live with the decrease in the profits. Which option is the best is down to, and different for, each vendor.

It is something that needs to be constantly reviewed as situations change. For example I am convinced some vendors started making for the original Dawn and they did not get the sales the expected and gave up. Dawn SE was a very much improved figure but some of the vendors stuck with the view that had of Dawn and never tried the new version and I think that may well have lost them potential sales.

 

[scatha]

Agreed hornet, just stating a few facts here that many seem to overlook, working closely with people such as Connie gave me a good inside look to what goes into making products like hers.. and I know it's breaking her heart to have to look for a fulltime job to pay the bills, as she simply doesn't get paid enough to live on by doing 3D fulltime. (just another nail in the coffin when you see her products being pirated like crazy)