Poser on borrowed time?

[eclark1894]

Fair enough. I do hope you're right, Earl.

It's just that when someone like Chris says he's deeply concerned, I'm deeply concerned. But none of us knows the future. Maybe if SM were to sell Poser to a company that will properly develop and support it and promote it will be the best thing ever to happen. Who knows.

I have a long history with Poser. The last time people were overly troubled by Poser's future, we ended up with DAZ Studio.

 

[James R.]

I have a long history with Poser. The last time people were overly troubled by Poser's future, we ended up with DAZ Studio.

Yup. I just barely remember that. I started with Poser around 2006 or so, messing around with it on a friend's machine.

Well... maybe this will be the kick in the pants that Poser devs need to do something super amazing.

Staying hopeful, despite my worries.

 

[quietrob]

In the thread, I read that DAZ is doing poorly when it comes to sales.

I said back when they driving off Poser users that it wasn't a good idea to drive off probably more than half of their user base. Not all have the patience for conversion of material. I, too, used to buy Stonemason and Ironman13 sets when they first came out. Now I just sigh and move on. I suspect most Poser users feel the same way.

DAZ used to giveaway their base figure, then slowly nickel and dime you to buy morphs and clothing and props. Now with their "BUY Something you don't want to get a sale price on something you MAY want" practice, driving away that user base has come back to haunt them. I do want DAZ to succeed. I also want Poser to succeed. Perhaps one should look at the other user base as a potential buyer instead of something to be shunned.

 

[Hornet3d]

In the thread, I read that DAZ is doing poorly when it comes to sales.

I said back when they driving off Poser users that it wasn't a good idea to drive off probably more than half of their user base. Not all have the patience for conversion of material. I, too, used to buy Stonemason and Ironman13 sets when they first came out. Now I just sigh and move on. I suspect most Poser users feel the same way.

DAZ used to giveaway their base figure, then slowly nickel and dime you to buy morphs and clothing and props. Now with their "BUY Something you don't want to get a sale price on something you MAY want" practice, driving away that user base has come back to haunt them. I do want DAZ to succeed. I also want Poser to succeed. Perhaps one should look at the other user base as a potential buyer instead of something to be shunned.

Despite the popularity 3D art, as a hobby, is still pretty small compared with other hobbies and, in my view, it needs all the help it can to survive. I am a Poser user so I want to see Poser survive but as a Poser user I want Daz to survive and be equally successful. With a little bit of care and consideration this hobby could be big enough to support both versions of software and make a fair living for some.

In the past I also used to buy Stonemason and Ironman13, well I purchased just about every thing was as that had an i13 in front of it. A quick search of my database shows over 92 hits not including tutorials produced with Fugazi1968 that I also purchased. Since the move to DS only I have not purchased a single item. I am not complaining, vendors have the choice to work in the software they choose but if you want to make money it seems making for the widest possible market of customers would not be such a barmy idea.

After 14 years of buying something for my hobby every month I have purchased nothing in the last three. To be fair some of that is because I will not shop at one site due to lack of security but i am missing very little. I have a few items in my wishlist here that I will pick up in the next week or so but it will be no where near the $100 I used to spend on content.

 

[Semicharm]

In the thread, I read that DAZ is doing poorly when it comes to sales.

I said back when they driving off Poser users that it wasn't a good idea to drive off probably more than half of their user base. Not all have the patience for conversion of material. I, too, used to buy Stonemason and Ironman13 sets when they first came out. Now I just sigh and move on. I suspect most Poser users feel the same way.

DAZ used to giveaway their base figure, then slowly nickel and dime you to buy morphs and clothing and props. Now with their "BUY Something you don't want to get a sale price on something you MAY want" practice, driving away that user base has come back to haunt them. I do want DAZ to succeed. I also want Poser to succeed. Perhaps one should look at the other user base as a potential buyer instead of something to be shunned.

The old schism over Genesis... DS started as a possible replacement for Poser, but then ended up being the redheaded stepchild. Eventually, Daz saw Poser's overall market share eroding, and theirs along with it. However, being stuck with Poser's quirky archaic rigging system, there was little they could do. They'd already stretched it as far as they could with V4. Daz begged and pleaded with SM to implement weightmap rigging, SM just wasn't interested. So, Daz had to make a hard choice, stay the course with Poser and continue to sink or implement weightmap and other new tech to grow their own marketshare independent of Poser. From what I understand, they continued pleading with SM while developing Genesis, but they just wouldn't budge. Their eventual response was adding "capsule" rigging zones to their old system in Poser8, which neither they or anyone else really supported. Up to this point, the schism wasn't Daz's fault. It was entirely on SM and Poser.

I'm not sure what eventually got SM to change course, but they did eventually take weightmap seriously and opted to shoehorn their own implementation into the old Poser format. Around the same time, looking to appeal to markets beyond Poser, Daz had decided to move to an entirely new DSON file format. Not wanting to invest in two formats, SM stuck with their implementation. Trying to bridge the divide, Daz did attempt to bring the new Poser9 format into DS4.5 (implementing parts of it), but eventually gave up and stuck with their own formats as well. Instead, Daz (sort of) buried the hatch with SM and worked to make an importer for Poser. That was, and still is, hit and miss because there are some advanced features that Poser doesn't support and likely never will. Though DS can read most Poser9 version weightmaps, it doesn't understand other changes in the rigging format.

That's basically what we're stuck with now. There's always been a rift between DS and Poser on some features and implementations. However, SM and Daz don't collaborate at all on new features. The current bridge isn't going to span the rift as it continues to grow. If SM wasn't such a stubborn mule, things wouldn't have gotten this bad between them.

 

[VortigensBane]

HOKEY SMOKES! Color blind? I can't believe that. Your renders are the GREATEST. How can a colorblind person create such beautiful art? Tell me it isn't true.

It's true. I don't see in monochrome, though, if that is what you are expecting. I just don't know which color is which. I might think something is red, and someone else thinks it is orange, green, or pink. It's happened before...

 

[Glitterati3D]

The old schism over Genesis... DS started as a possible replacement for Poser, but then ended up being the redheaded stepchild. Eventually, Daz saw Poser's overall market share eroding, and theirs along with it. However, being stuck with Poser's quirky archaic rigging system, there was little they could do. They'd already stretched it as far as they could with V4. Daz begged and pleaded with SM to implement weightmap rigging, SM just wasn't interested. So, Daz had to make a hard choice, stay the course with Poser and continue to sink or implement weightmap and other new tech to grow their own marketshare independent of Poser. From what I understand, they continued pleading with SM while developing Genesis, but they just wouldn't budge. Their eventual response was adding "capsule" rigging zones to their old system in Poser8, which neither they or anyone else really supported. Up to this point, the schism wasn't Daz's fault. It was entirely on SM and Poser.

I'm not sure what eventually got SM to change course, but they did eventually take weightmap seriously and opted to shoehorn their own implementation into the old Poser format. Around the same time, looking to appeal to markets beyond Poser, Daz had decided to move to an entirely new DSON file format. Not wanting to invest in two formats, SM stuck with their implementation. Trying to bridge the divide, Daz did attempt to bring the new Poser9 format into DS4.5 (implementing parts of it), but eventually gave up and stuck with their own formats as well. Instead, Daz (sort of) buried the hatch with SM and worked to make an importer for Poser. That was, and still is, hit and miss because there are some advanced features that Poser doesn't support and likely never will. Though DS can read most Poser9 version weightmaps, it doesn't understand other changes in the rigging format.

That's basically what we're stuck with now. There's always been a rift between DS and Poser on some features and implementations. However, SM and Daz don't collaborate at all on new features. The current bridge isn't going to span the rift as it continues to grow. If SM wasn't such a stubborn mule, things wouldn't have gotten this bad between them.

This is all a bit one sided, but who cares anymore?????????

Frankly, if DAZ wanted to, their figures would work in Poser, just like the Hivewire family does.

They don't want that. They told Poser users to take a hike. We did. End of story.

 

[Minyassa]

Ye gods, this is all terrifying and depressing. I'd be fine with Poser changing hands if someone hadn't brought up the nightmare scenario of DAZ buying it. Now I can just hope and pray that DAZ is too broke to afford it, because I feel that they *would* buy it just to kill it, if they could. They seem to be really into the "new lion takes over the pride and murders the cubs of the old one" thing. I know I'm biased against them, they kicked their Poser customers to the curb pretty damn hard and with no pretense of courtesy, but I don't think I'm exaggerating too much. I'm going to be sweating until I hear something comforting.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Skipping past the DAZ / SM bit because information from DAZ and SM varies greatly in who refused to do what ...

I started with Poser 5 (well ... after I'd been using DS for several months). That was back when DS was free, but you needed to purchase all kinds of addons to get a program comparable to Poser 5. Granted ... I will forever be grateful that I was able to dip my feet into 3D without spending a huge investment in a program. But ... I ended up spending the cost of a Prius at DAZ for content.

I too picked up just about every Stonemason product that came out. Even though it wasn't anywhere near as flexible as Faveral's or others. But when he stopped supporting Poser, I stopped buying his content. Just as when DAZ stopped supporting Poser, I stopped shopping at DAZ.

I have never regretted upgrading to Poser Pro 11. It is ever so much easier to rig clothing than it ever was in previous versions, so I'd consider Poser Pro 11 an essential upgrade for anyone developing content.

While I have yet to dip my toes very deep in Superfly ... it's certainly an improvement. The morphing tool was also improved, which makes it a lot easier to fix poke through or crinkled mesh.

If both SM and DAZ had the same mindset as HiveWire, we'd have a rather amazing little world here. Lot to be said for a company that values both its customers regardless of the software they use.

 

[Semicharm]

This is all a bit one sided, but who cares anymore?????????

Frankly, if DAZ wanted to, their figures would work in Poser, just like the Hivewire family does.

They don't want that. They told Poser users to take a hike. We did. End of story.

Sure, investing R&D trying to make Posers new rigging work in DS, and then investing even more in developing an importer to make their models work in Poser instead, is telling Poser users to take a hike... I use both Poser and DS, and watched the drama on both sides for years.

Who cares? Well, you do apparently. And does everyone who is affected by it.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Sure, investing R&D trying to make Posers new rigging work in DS, and then investing even more in developing an importer to make their models work in Poser instead, is telling Poser users to take a hike... I use both Poser and DS, and watched the drama on both sides for years.

Who cares? Well, you do apparently. And does everyone who is affected by it.

ROFL, I don't care one whit about DAZ nor what they do. They told Poser users to use DS or take a hike.

When Poser users took a hike en mass, they created the DSON importer to try and bring them back. They left just enough trouble in the DSON importer to make using their figures in Poser difficult, still trying to get Poser users to drop Poser.

Instead, Poser users said keep your garbage DSON and keep your figures. Bye, bye.

 

[Semicharm]

Skipping past the DAZ / SM bit because information from DAZ and SM varies greatly in who refused to do what ...

I started with Poser 5 (well ... after I'd been using DS for several months). That was back when DS was free, but you needed to purchase all kinds of addons to get a program comparable to Poser 5. Granted ... I will forever be grateful that I was able to dip my feet into 3D without spending a huge investment in a program. But ... I ended up spending the cost of a Prius at DAZ for content.

I too picked up just about every Stonemason product that came out. Even though it wasn't anywhere near as flexible as Faveral's or others. But when he stopped supporting Poser, I stopped buying his content. Just as when DAZ stopped supporting Poser, I stopped shopping at DAZ.

I have never regretted upgrading to Poser Pro 11. It is ever so much easier to rig clothing than it ever was in previous versions, so I'd consider Poser Pro 11 an essential upgrade for anyone developing content.

While I have yet to dip my toes very deep in Superfly ... it's certainly an improvement. The morphing tool was also improved, which makes it a lot easier to fix poke through or crinkled mesh.

If both SM and DAZ had the same mindset as HiveWire, we'd have a rather amazing little world here. Lot to be said for a company that values both its customers regardless of the software they use.

Using both DS and Poser, I'd wished they did get along better. Somethings work better in DS, others in Poser. And I agree that Poser 11 has at least attempted to address some of my pet peeves. However, the only reason I have it at all is because I won it in a contest. Couldn't afford Pro otherwise.

BTW, I curious what SM did actually do? I don't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes, mostly comments from various people in the middle and what SM decided to release with Poser 8, 9, 10, etc.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Using both DS and Poser, I'd wished they did get along better. Somethings work better in DS, others in Poser. And I agree that Poser 11 has at

You should probably take the time to remember back when DS4 and Genesis was released. DS4 was not free - in fact, it was $20.00 more than PoserPro10.

If you get your fondest wish to see Poser destroyed, you can say goodbye to free DS.

 

[Semicharm]

ROFL, I don't care one whit about DAZ nor what they do. They told Poser users to use DS or take a hike.

When Poser users took a hike en mass, they created the DSON importer to try and bring them back. They left just enough trouble in the DSON importer to make using their figures in Poser difficult, still trying to get Poser users to drop Poser.

Instead, Poser users said keep your garbage DSON and keep your figures. Bye, bye.

You insist you don't care, but you keep claiming to know so much about what they did and why. Like why they couldn't somehow make Poser's incompatible software work perfectly with theirs. LOL

If you know so much, why didn't SM move forward? They could have just as well implemented weightmaps and other features much sooner than they did, sooner than Daz. SM is a bigger company than Daz and the technology was hardly new in the industry. They could have left Daz and DS in the dust, scrambling to keep up.

 

[Glitterati3D]

You insist you don't care, but you keep claiming to know so much about what they did and why. Like why they couldn't somehow make Poser's incompatible software work perfectly with theirs. LOL

If you know so much, why didn't SM move forward? They could have just as well implemented weightmaps and other features much sooner than they did, sooner than Daz. SM is a bigger company than Daz and the technology was hardly new in the industry. They could have left Daz and DS in the dust, scrambling to keep up.

Until they released DS4, I was a DS3A user. I spent a fortune at DAZ until that awful DS4 interface gave me multiday migraines.

 

[eclark1894]

Sure, investing R&D trying to make Posers new rigging work in DS, and then investing even more in developing an importer to make their models work in Poser instead, is telling Poser users to take a hike... I use both Poser and DS, and watched the drama on both sides for years.

Who cares? Well, you do apparently. And does everyone who is affected by it.

Using both DS and Poser, I'd wished they did get along better. Somethings work better in DS, others in Poser. And I agree that Poser 11 has at least attempted to address some of my pet peeves. However, the only reason I have it at all is because I won it in a contest. Couldn't afford Pro otherwise.

BTW, I curious what SM did actually do? I don't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes, mostly comments from various people in the middle and what SM decided to release with Poser 8, 9, 10, etc.

I care about DAZ's fate as much as I do Poser's. I don't think DAZ and SM realize just how interconnected their fates are. I rarely, and I mean that in the sense of :"almost never" shop at DAZ any more because they don't really sell anything I need, or don't already have, or can't get or make somewhere else. Killing off Poser, whethere they do it or Poser whithers on the vine, does DAZ no good at all. If Poser's current user base isn't enough to keep it afloat, they're not really going to do DAZ much good. And there are always users like myself, who will simply move on to the next thing (Blender).

 

[Semicharm]

You should probably take the time to remember back when DS4 and Genesis was released. DS4 was not free - in fact, it was $20.00 more than PoserPro10.

If you get your fondest wish to see Poser destroyed, you can say goodbye to free DS.

My memory is just fine, thanks. I used the free version of DS4 when it came out. It's been awhile, but if you'd recall back then DS had a basic free version and a paid Pro version that was required for some types of content development. I couldn't afford DS Pro or Poser Pro at the time.

And yes, I'd slammed Daz for some of their decisions too. I'm also not the least bit happy about iray. I'd bought an incompatible video card just a few months before they'd announced it. The new shader previews were written for Nvidia cards too. Then they slowly been dropping support for their old renderer in their new products. Sure, Poser's SuperFly also requires nvidia boards for hardware rendering, but at least I could get usable render times without one.

sigh If you wish to continue this discussion, you could at least have the decency to actually read what I've said. Just because I wasn't happy with some of the decisions that SM made doesn't mean I have any ill will towards them or Poser. I have and use Poser 11 Pro regularly. LOL Because of SuperFly, I actually use Poser more than DS these days.

 

[Miss B]

I used the free version of DS4 when it came out. It's been awhile, but if you'd recall back then DS had a basic free version and a paid Pro version that was required for some types of content development. I couldn't afford DS Pro or Poser Pro at the time.

Actually, there were 3 versions of DS 4.0 when it first came out: the free basic version, DS 4 Advanced, and DS 4 Pro. I initially went with DS 4.0A because I didn't have any use for the Bridge to ZBrush, which was available in DS 4.0P. The Advanced version had the Layered Imaged Editor, which I did want to continue to use in the new version of DS. I only upgraded to Pro when DAZ decided to make the software free.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Then you will likely remember that DS4 was announced with the Pro version, the "temporarily" free version, until they could complete the final free version that would be ONLINE USE only.

But, the bottom line was simple. SM wisely refused to hook their software to the DAZ proprietary system just to make DAZ figures work in Poser. If they had gone down that path, they would have had to re-tool the software 3 times since DS4 was announced. First for Genesis, then Genesis 2, and now, Genesis 8.

In case you missed it, Genesis 8 is not even Triax weight mapped. Genesis8 is geared to the game industry, not the current DS base. They've just invited you folks along for the ride as long as you keep your credit card handy.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Actually, there were 3 versions of DS 4.0 when it first came out: the free basic version, DS 4 Advanced, and DS 4 Pro. I initially went with DS 4.0A because I didn't have any use for the Bridge to ZBrush, which was available in DS 4.0P. The Advanced version had the Layered Imaged Editor, which I did want to continue to use in the new version of DS. I only upgraded to Pro when DAZ decided to make the software free.

That's correct. And only the Pro version was capable of rigging.