Poser on borrowed time?

[Alisa]

Keep in mind that no vendor has the obligation to create for Poser and DAZ Studio, Firefly and Superfly, 3DL and Iray. As has been stated, it's a LOT of work to cover all bases.

Some may have started with one program and developed a customer base, and at some point then try the other program and find it easier and/or more profitable to create in, or don't feel they can do both.

While it's understandable to be disappointed when/if that happens, it may be a choice they feel the have to make to keep creating products at all.

 

[Glitterati3D]

You're right. Not always ... prop hair is a lot easier to convert than conforming hair ... and definitely easier than clothing (which is what I was talking about). Prop hair (I'm talking Poser HR2, not CR2) basically just needs to be morphed and positioned into place. No groups and joint centers and weight mapping to worry about.

PS ... nice character!

That's exactly right - some things take very little effort to make Poser compatible. I agree on clothing, none of that converts well, nor without a great deal of effort to make it commercial quality.

Thanks on the character - but that's just DawnSE with her Special Edition Face 2 dialed to 1.

 

[VortigensBane]

But certainly not always, Deecey. I recently bought and converted and AprilYSH hair from the object stage. I had the objects of the hair and morphs exported from DAZ and brought them into Poser Pro 11 and rigged the hair to Dawn. It took me all of 25 minutes to have working, morphing prop hair from a G3/G8 marketed hair.

Great job on this. Conversion worked very well.

 

[Hornet3d]

Well my last comment sort of stirred up the Hive which was not my intention. I was looking at it from the vendors point of view and making the point that customers that want the latest and greatest don't tend to hang around too long and you have to keep moving with them. If you have already locked out a certain part of the market then that could make the customer base very narrow.

I totally accept the point that each vendor has the right to decide which software they support and that the buyer should not have to do any conversion. The point I was making that if easy conversion is possible then the market might be slightly larger as some customer will buy and convert. I only buy and convert the easy stuff, I am not going to buy a scene and then spend hours or weeks creating or making the materials work.

I know I am biased as my firm belief is that SM should spend their development time on features rather than content. There is plenty of good content out there and if something like the fitting room gives allows you to better use that content I am all for it. That sort of makes me lean to a conversion argument a little more easily than others. It is my personal view and I know for others content from SM is more important and that is an equally valid point of view, or maybe more so depending on the viewpoint.

 

[Hornet3d]

Here's where i have a problem with conversions. I shouldn't have to convert anything. The vendor should. I'm paying money for all this hard work right? I don't buy much from DAZ anymore not because i hate DAZ, I don't, but because Daz doesn't sell much I can just install and use in Poser. When they want me back as a customer, let them make a Poser version I can use. If i have to convert to use in Poser then i should get a discount.

Sort of agree, it is up to vendor to decide if conversion is worth the effort but it they want to sell to Poser users I agree with you.

 

[Hornet3d]

>> Here's where i have a problem with conversions. I shouldn't have to convert anything. The vendor should.

Commercial quality conversions can be nearly as much work as the original figure. Modeling an outfit is actually the easy part ... rigging clothing for a different figure is an entirely different matter. Fitting room conversions may be good for personal use, but I would never release something that was "automatically" converted because there are usually things that need to be cleaned up. In addition to refitting the model (something I usually do manually to make sure it's clean), there is the regrouping, and converting all the morphs. "Copy morphs from" is a good start, but automatic morph conversions frequently need to be cleaned up and smoothed out in places. Weight maps have to be checked to make sure they all work correctly. By the time all of that is done, you might as well have created an entirely new piece of clothing to begin with.

Yep, I get that which is why, if someone wants something to work in another program they will put in the effort to make it work for them, it is the customer's choice. You do however have to have software that has enough features to make conversions possible. The customer deciding to convert is a far cry from asking the vendor to make a commercial quality conversions.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Great job on this. Conversion worked very well.

Thank you.

 

[Hornet3d]

But certainly not always, Deecey. I recently bought and converted and AprilYSH hair from the object stage. I had the objects of the hair and morphs exported from DAZ and brought them into Poser Pro 11 and rigged the hair to Dawn. It took me all of 25 minutes to have working, morphing prop hair from a G3/G8 marketed hair.

View attachment 27242

Nice render. I would be lost without conversions to V4 hair to use with Dawn, admitted most are converted by the vendor.

 

[Hornet3d]

Keep in mind that no vendor has the obligation to create for Poser and DAZ Studio, Firefly and Superfly, 3DL and Iray. As has been stated, it's a LOT of work to cover all bases.

Some may have started with one program and developed a customer base, and at some point then try the other program and find it easier and/or more profitable to create in, or don't feel they can do both.

While it's understandable to be disappointed when/if that happens, it may be a choice they feel the have to make to keep creating products at all.

Totally agree, it is their choice and from that decision will flow just how successful they are, that is the world of supply and demand.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Well my last comment sort of stirred up the Hive which was not my intention. I was looking at it from the vendors point of view and making the point that customers that want the latest and greatest don't tend to hang around too long and you have to keep moving with them. If you have already locked out a certain part of the market then that could make the customer base very narrow.

I totally accept the point that each vendor has the right to decide which software they support and that the buyer should not have to do any conversion. The point I was making that if easy conversion is possible then the market might be slightly larger as some customer will buy and convert. I only buy and convert the easy stuff, I am not going to buy a scene and then spend hours or weeks creating or making the materials work.

I know I am biased as my firm belief is that SM should spend their development time on features rather than content. There is plenty of good content out there and if something like the fitting room gives allows you to better use that content I am all for it. That sort of makes me lean to a conversion argument a little more easily than others. It is my personal view and I know for others content from SM is more important and that is an equally valid point of view, or maybe more so depending on the viewpoint.

I agree, the bottom line is simple, though. The conversion programs just don't get the job done for commercial quality.

I recently purchased some of Xurge3D's M4 clothing to convert to Dusk. And, while the conversion went well using Crossdresser, none of them are what I would consider commercial quality. They don't look bad at first glance, and small issues can be corrected in post work, but it would have been much better if I had the time to convert object in the modeler then rig to Dusk.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Nice render. I would be lost without conversions to V4 hair to use with Dawn, admitted most are converted by the vendor.

This one was a gamble. I saw the hair in the DAZ store and 2 things jumped out at me:

1) I've waited a long time to see a nice, tightly curled hair for a Poser figure and this one is excellent; and
2) when I saw the hair is just screamed "Dawn" to me because it would frame her face nicely.

Without both of those factors, I would have just passed it by. I do a lot of V4 hair conversions for Dawn using HCS and they work beautifully. This was the first time I ever even considered doing a Genesis conversion.

 

[Hornet3d]

I agree, the bottom line is simple, though. The conversion programs just don't get the job done for commercial quality.

I recently purchased some of Xurge3D's M4 clothing to convert to Dusk. And, while the conversion went well using Crossdresser, none of them are what I would consider commercial quality. They don't look bad at first glance, and small issues can be corrected in post work, but it would have been much better if I had the time to convert object in the modeler then rig to Dusk.

And of course not everyone would have the skill to do a conversions lat alone a commercial quality conversion.

This one was a gamble. I saw the hair in the DAZ store and 2 things jumped out at me:

1) I've waited a long time to see a nice, tightly curled hair for a Poser figure and this one is excellent; and
2) when I saw the hair is just screamed "Dawn" to me because it would frame her face nicely.

Without both of those factors, I would have just passed it by. I do a lot of V4 hair conversions for Dawn using HCS and they work beautifully. This was the first time I ever even considered doing a Genesis conversion.

Right on both pointa and your gamble paid off ......... well seen. I think this is really the case in point, I would never suggest that conversions should be the norm but where an artist finds something they really want they can try and convert. Clearly it is not going to be a commercial quality conversion but it their eyes their conversion is better than not having it at all.

 

[Deecey]

I'll confess that I've been seriously considering adding DS compatibility to Maisie, but I have rarely touched DS in the last 8 years and have no idea where to start. It would mean redoing the weight maps all over again, and then trying to figure out how to add all the other DS only features, as well as learning the material setups. I open DS and feel overwhelmed LOL.

And that may be part of the reason why DS content creators aren't doing Poser conversions. Many have rarely or ever touched Poser. So the hesitation goes both ways, I'm afraid.

 

[Glitterati3D]

I'll confess that I've been seriously considering adding DS compatibility to Maisie, but I have rarely touched DS in the last 8 years and have no idea where to start. It would mean redoing the weight maps all over again, and then trying to figure out how to add all the other DS only features, as well as learning the material setups. I open DS and feel overwhelmed LOL.

And that may be part of the reason why DS content creators aren't doing Poser conversions. Many have rarely or ever touched Poser. So the hesitation goes both ways, I'm afraid.

Well, if it's any comfort, the textures on the Karissa hair conversion are all April's originals. They worked just fine in Firefly and Superfly.

I'm doing a character for Dawn right now and all the painted textures work fine for both render engines, with small additions to look a bit better in Superfly on all the reflective surfaces (eyes, lips, nails, etc.)

It might not be as bad as you are imagining, but I readily admit I have absolutely zero experience with Iray.

ETA: Another consideration is the DS market overall - they have an abundance of toon figures pretty well established. Is there a market for another one?

 

[Deecey]

Yup, I get that. One of the reasons it wasn't done in the first place.

 

[eclark1894]

>> Here's where i have a problem with conversions. I shouldn't have to convert anything. The vendor should.

Commercial quality conversions can be nearly as much work as the original figure. Modeling an outfit is actually the easy part ... rigging clothing for a different figure is an entirely different matter. Fitting room conversions may be good for personal use, but I would never release something that was "automatically" converted because there are usually things that need to be cleaned up. In addition to refitting the model (something I usually do manually to make sure it's clean), there is the regrouping, and converting all the morphs. "Copy morphs from" is a good start, but automatic morph conversions frequently need to be cleaned up and smoothed out in places. Weight maps have to be checked to make sure they all work correctly. By the time all of that is done, you might as well have created an entirely new piece of clothing to begin with.

Interesting that you say that. You see the whole reason I started to learn how to model in the first place was so I could make things I wanted, my way. If I have to do all that work just to convert something... well who needs to buy?

 

[eclark1894]

Keep in mind that no vendor has the obligation to create for Poser and DAZ Studio, Firefly and Superfly, 3DL and Iray. As has been stated, it's a LOT of work to cover all bases.

Some may have started with one program and developed a customer base, and at some point then try the other program and find it easier and/or more profitable to create in, or don't feel they can do both.

While it's understandable to be disappointed when/if that happens, it may be a choice they feel the have to make to keep creating products at all.

And i understand that very well. That's why I gave up all pretense of trying to make stuff to work in DS. Rigging, Iray, 3 delight, texturing... no wonder I ended up in the hospital this year.

 

[eclark1894]

And of course not everyone would have the skill to do a conversions lat alone a commercial quality conversion.



Right on both pointa and your gamble paid off ......... well seen. I think this is really the case in point, I would never suggest that conversions should be the norm but where an artist finds something they really want they can try and convert. Clearly it is not going to be a commercial quality conversion but it their eyes their conversion is better than not having it at all.

Funny thing... in the real world we have tailors and shops that do alterations for you. Maybe it's time for someone to do commercial quality conversions for people. Just to clarify, I'm not talking about converting other people's stuff without their permision and then selling them. But say I bought a suit of armor for M4 and took it to a professional converter, who would do all the grunt work of professionally converting the armor to fit say, Dusk or Tyler.

Hmm, a suit of armor for Dusk....

 

[Lissa_xyz]

@eclark1894 Then you'd end up paying twice for it. You want vendors to discount their items if you need to convert it yourself, yet you'd pay a 3rd party to convert something you've already purchased? That makes zero sense. The cost for conversion alone would probably be more expensive than the product itself. Half the things that are sold in the shops are sold at nowhere near what they'd cost had you gone to a freelancer to have them do the same work for you custom.

 

[Deecey]

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think it would be advantageous to either side of that. The person doing the conversion would also have to have the model that is being converted ... and the fact that he or she couldn't sell it would mean that the work would be a "one-off" project. That will be costly.