Poser on borrowed time?

[quietrob]

I agree with this, honestly. As a vendor, I agree. Because of physical limitations, I don't use DS and I don't expect customers to buy to convert my products.

But, I think what rubs folks wrong is these former Poser vendors who moved to DS suddenly don't want Poser customers. They established their reputation on the backs of Poser customers and then abandon them.

Thank you!

I do feel abandoned. Yes, it's everyone's right to make what they want for the figure they want. However, I contacted a vendor recently who suddenly acted like they had never heard of Poser when their store is filled with Poser products. For those that rig both Poser and DAZ, does rigging the OBJ take longer on one than the other? How much longer?

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Yep. Me too. Feel abandoned that is. Which is why I don't shop at DAZ anymore. Actually ... if it's not sold at HiveWire, most likely I don't see it or don't buy it. I did shop more at RDNA than at Renderosity, but my purchases at RDNA tended to be things to help rendering, lighting, content creation, etc.. Fortunately, my favorite RDNA vendors came to HiveWire. I probably bought hair and merchant resources mostly at Renderosity. But, I prefer not to risk shopping there anymore.

What frustrates me more than anything with DAZ / DAZ vendors is that props don't involve rigging. So to stop supporting Poser altogether when your expertise is buildings and landscapes simply makes no sense to me whatsoever.

To be honest, I think highly of anyone who creates content for both Poser and DS. I'm just not that tenacious ... not when I have a full time job that drives me insane most days now. Well, it's not the job, it's our manager. That and the fact that we now are sharing offices and my office mate is either chewing gum (loudly) or she's on the phone. Really nice person, but the agency she supports are extremely demanding. Our lease is up in two years and if we stay, we lose the offices altogether and will be sitting in cubicles in an open area. We all expect productivity to take a big hit.

Ok. Off to pick up cat litter and shampoo from downstairs. I'm just sooo spoiled by Amazon!

 

[Glitterati3D]

What frustrates me more than anything with DAZ / DAZ vendors is that props don't involve rigging. So to stop supporting Poser altogether when your expertise is buildings and landscapes simply makes no sense to me whatsoever.

In the case where a DAZ vendor is making extensive use of instancing, then it does make sense. That, however, is usually limited to outdoor scenes with shrubbery, etc. where instancing is useful. In other cases where they only difference is in providing textures for use in Poser, then yes, I see it as an offense, honestly.

It is very rare that I have to make any changes to textures on Poser props from the DAZ store for Firefly or Superfly.

 

[eclark1894]

Well, it all depends on how much the converter is charging or if i get a discount. And yeah, I know a freelancer would cost more. That's why I use Blender and make my own stuff. And since I used a tailor as an example Deecy, I was thinking more along the line of the custoer or client, buying the product first, then taking it to the converter.

 

[Rae134]

That wouldn't be allowed eclark as you're not allowed to share stuff like that. And if I was in the positon to pay someone to convert something I'd for me, I'd rather commission to have something made just for me (I'd rather pay for something unique than to pay twice for a product other people have)

 

[Pendraia]

>> Here's where i have a problem with conversions. I shouldn't have to convert anything. The vendor should.

Commercial quality conversions can be nearly as much work as the original figure. Modeling an outfit is actually the easy part ... rigging clothing for a different figure is an entirely different matter. Fitting room conversions may be good for personal use, but I would never release something that was "automatically" converted because there are usually things that need to be cleaned up. In addition to refitting the model (something I usually do manually to make sure it's clean), there is the regrouping, and converting all the morphs. "Copy morphs from" is a good start, but automatic morph conversions frequently need to be cleaned up and smoothed out in places. Weight maps have to be checked to make sure they all work correctly. By the time all of that is done, you might as well have created an entirely new piece of clothing to begin with.

This is so true...I convert stuff all the time...mainly for my own use and have been trying to find a process where others can easily use it without going against copyright. It's easy when the outfit is for Dawn already and I'm just trying to provide morphs/Injections for Diva but when converting from V4 it gets more complicated.

That said, commercially viable product conversions are a lot of work and the expectations of the product quality are a lot higher.

I've also felt at times that it would be great to have a DS version for a lot of the Poser stuff that comes out for Dawn and feel frustrated that the only way I can do this is to convert products but at the same time I can totally understand why a vendor may struggle to do this for a variety of reasons ranging from lack of knowledge to the fact that it's too much work for the amount of sales they get. So I'll continue to do my own conversions.

I've recently come to the conclusion that I prefer to manually convert clothing myself in a modeller rather than use autofit it just has less issues if you know how to do it and you get a cleaner conversion.

I'll confess that I've been seriously considering adding DS compatibility to Maisie, but I have rarely touched DS in the last 8 years and have no idea where to start. It would mean redoing the weight maps all over again, and then trying to figure out how to add all the other DS only features, as well as learning the material setups. I open DS and feel overwhelmed LOL.

And that may be part of the reason why DS content creators aren't doing Poser conversions. Many have rarely or ever touched Poser. So the hesitation goes both ways, I'm afraid.

Totally agree...many of the new vendors who create at Daz have never owned Poser and personally I can say that I've found learning Poser a steep learning curve.

If you ever decide to take the jump with Maisie I would jump at buying a DS version as I've even considered picking her up to convert for my own use. She is a cutie!!

 

[eclark1894]

That wouldn't be allowed eclark as you're not allowed to share stuff like that. And if I was in the positon to pay someone to convert something I'd for me, I'd rather commission to have something made just for me (I'd rather pay for something unique than to pay twice for a product other people have)

You missed the part earlier where I said to get permission. As for commissioning someone, well if that's your choice.

 

[Deecey]

If you ever decide to take the jump with Maisie I would jump at buying a DS version as I've even considered picking her up to convert for my own use. She is a cutie!!

Aw thanks! We had a lot of fun working on her. Lots of giggles. Chuck did a great job with her rig!

 

[Pendraia]

She is very cute...: )

 

[quietrob]

This is so true...I convert stuff all the time...mainly for my own use and have been trying to find a process where others can easily use it without going against copyright. It's easy when the outfit is for Dawn already and I'm just trying to provide morphs/Injections for Diva but when converting from V4 it gets more complicated.

That said, commercially viable product conversions are a lot of work and the expectations of the product quality are a lot higher.

I've also felt at times that it would be great to have a DS version for a lot of the Poser stuff that comes out for Dawn and feel frustrated that the only way I can do this is to convert products but at the same time I can totally understand why a vendor may struggle to do this for a variety of reasons ranging from lack of knowledge to the fact that it's too much work for the amount of sales they get. So I'll continue to do my own conversions.

I've recently come to the conclusion that I prefer to manually convert clothing myself in a modeller rather than use autofit it just has less issues if you know how to do it and you get a cleaner conversion.


Totally agree...many of the new vendors who create at Daz have never owned Poser and personally I can say that I've found learning Poser a steep learning curve.

If you ever decide to take the jump with Maisie I would jump at buying a DS version as I've even considered picking her up to convert for my own use. She is a cutie!!

You know, I've been so closed minded regarding the loss of Poser content and the lack of conversion on items that I could use in Poser, I'd forgotten that DAZ may not handle everything meant for Poser or other software. To be honest, I thought if it worked in Poser, it would work in DAZ as well. DAZ still opens CR2's, doesn't it?

I hope you get your version, Pen!

 

[Pendraia]

If they are weightmapped they work correctly and need to be converted. If they are old style cr2's they work.

That said I bought the latest hair for Dawn with the goal to convert it. It loads but the morphs don't work. When I try and export the morph from Poser as a cr2 with it dialed in. (Which is the method I normally use for character morphs with no problem) The hair loads without the morph even though it was dialled in when exported. When I try exporting as an object from Poser so I can load the morph through morph loader it tells me the geometry doesn't match. Still playing around with it but it's driving me nuts.

 

[Lissa_xyz]

Daz can't do Poser weight mapping, it can't read any of it's fancy shader node stuff (ever try to use either of the Poser versions of Terradome in Studio? Good luck), and it can't inject PMD files.... just to name a few off the top of my head.

It's a lot easier for a Poser user to make things for DS as DS is free, but for a DS user to invest in Poser, only to not see any real financial gains, just isn't worth it. Daz PAs have said multiple times that they don't see enough extra sales to make including Poser content worth it anymore. For example, and these numbers are an exaggeration, not solid numbers, say a DS only set sells 100 times, that same set even with Poser compatibility may only sell 120 times, making it not worth the effort.

People have chosen to speak with their wallets over there, but aren't happy with the results. They want Poser compatibility, but not enough people buy the stuff when it does exist to make it worth it.

 

[eclark1894]

Daz can't do Poser weight mapping, it can't read any of it's fancy shader node stuff (ever try to use either of the Poser versions of Terradome in Studio? Good luck), and it can't inject PMD files.... just to name a few off the top of my head.

It's a lot easier for a Poser user to make things for DS as DS is free, but for a DS user to invest in Poser, only to not see any real financial gains, just isn't worth it. Daz PAs have said multiple times that they don't see enough extra sales to make including Poser content worth it anymore. For example, and these numbers are an exaggeration, not solid numbers, say a DS only set sells 100 times, that same set even with Poser compatibility may only sell 120 times, making it not worth the effort.

People have chosen to speak with their wallets over there, but aren't happy with the results. They want Poser compatibility, but not enough people buy the stuff when it does exist to make it worth it.

Truth to tell, I don't go to DAZ enough anymore to know Who or if they are making Poser stuff , Can't buy it if you don't know about it.

 

[Lissa_xyz]

If you're not going there anyways to look, why bother worrying about product conversions for products you have no intention of buying in the first place? lol

 

[eclark1894]

If you're not going there anyways to look, why bother worrying about product conversions for products you have no intention of buying in the first place? lol

I don't worry about it at all. It was just an idea spawned in response to a topic. I have them from time to time, you know.

 

[quietrob]

Daz can't do Poser weight mapping, it can't read any of it's fancy shader node stuff (ever try to use either of the Poser versions of Terradome in Studio? Good luck), and it can't inject PMD files.... just to name a few off the top of my head.

It's a lot easier for a Poser user to make things for DS as DS is free, but for a DS user to invest in Poser, only to not see any real financial gains, just isn't worth it. Daz PAs have said multiple times that they don't see enough extra sales to make including Poser content worth it anymore. For example, and these numbers are an exaggeration, not solid numbers, say a DS only set sells 100 times, that same set even with Poser compatibility may only sell 120 times, making it not worth the effort.

People have chosen to speak with their wallets over there, but aren't happy with the results. They want Poser compatibility, but not enough people buy the stuff when it does exist to make it worth it.

It's becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
DAZ went DAZ only with only a few products being offered for Poser. Just look at the splash screens. All the products look fantastic. However, almost all new products are not Poser ready.
Poser people see there isn't anything for them.
Poser people stop showing up.
DAZ PA's see the same set for Poser isn't selling by ten to one (And exaggeration, not solid numbers) and say, "See? Poser stuff didn't sale."

This ignores the fact that when DAZ wasn't making "DAZ Only" items and figures, Poser users comprised at least half or more of their sales base. You have to look at the way it was when Poser users were courted just as fervently as DAZ users. Some people switched to DAZ as they company wanted. A lot of people didn't. I am one of them. I belonged to the PC club and only left when I felt abandoned. Here is a basic fact about sales and customers.

It is four times as hard to regain a customer once lost then to keep one. Basic rule. Keep every customer you can.

It's been stated that's easier for a Poser user to make things for DAZ because DS is free. I'm still learning but I would think the effort would be the same to create for both products. but thanks to the factors above, the pool of people buying for Poser at that same location is way down thus you don't get the same financial gain. I still don't hate DAZ. When they put the same effort into bringing me back, I will return. When they make it worth it for a Poser user to join the PC club I will join. In the meantime, Rendo, Xurge, the Hive will have the attention of my wallet.

 

[Hornet3d]

Thank you!

I do feel abandoned. Yes, it's everyone's right to make what they want for the figure they want. However, I contacted a vendor recently who suddenly acted like they had never heard of Poser when their store is filled with Poser products. For those that rig both Poser and DAZ, does rigging the OBJ take longer on one than the other? How much longer?

I agree, I do feel abandoned, abandoned by those that I purchased their products on all but rare occasions when I had no use for that particular product. That meant I purchased around 90% of their output which dropped to 0% overnight when they decided to go DS only. I am not complaining and respect their right to do so but I also feel I have every right to feel abandoned.

Sad truth is though, it does not end there. Not so many years ago we had Poser being updated on a regular basis and we now know it will be quite a wait for the next update. Poser users could shop at Daz, RDNA , Renderosity and further back also include Content Paradise. Where can I go now, as a Poser user, to buy content safely, Hivewire (and than god for that and the team). The changes at Daz, the demise of RDNA had a bigger impact on Poser users than DS, CP is not longer fit for purpose and my experience at Renderosity suggests their security makes buying there a gamble, although in fairness, this is equally true for DS users.

I am not angry, I do not blame anyone but I do feel abandoned and, if I am truthful, in some cases a little bit cheated.

 

[Glitterati3D]

It's been stated that's easier for a Poser user to make things for DAZ because DS is free. I'm still learning but I would think the effort would be the same to create for both products.

Free doesn't make it easier. It might make it cheaper, but it sure as heck doesn't make it easier.

 

[Ken Gilliland]

I use and create both programs. Both have different strengths and weakness. I find the WM tools in Poser much easier to use and much more forgiving if you mess-up on the mapping. Perhaps I find Poser easier to create in because I've had it since version 1 and I come from a programming background (so I'm not afraid to dig into Poser code). I've also had DAZ Studio since its first version-- when it was simply an alternate way to pose and render Poser content. It has really grown-up as a product and hands down is better when trying to get clothes or other conforming items to fit a character. I think Poser's Firefly beat 3Delight but Iray renders can be jaw-dropping. I haven't played enough with Superfly to judge it fairly. Iray also allows you to set SubD levels on selected materials automatically-- a real smart piece of coding. Poser's Superfly has to be done manually. Poser, I think has easier to use, and superior animation tools. It also has the built-in sketcher renderer (which is hugely under-used) and some great comic book rendering abilities in Poser 11. The anime series, RWBY, was done in Poser.

My advice for content creators starting on the Poser side is to create your model standard rigging. When you are happy with the rigging, save the .c2 and then use to "Converted Standard Rigging to Weight mapping" option in Poser", clean up the WM as needed and save it as another file. Using your standard rigging cr2, load that into DS, run the SubD and Convert to TriAx tools and save that as a separate file in DS, cleaning up the WM as needed. The reason for doing the standard rigging version as the base is that both Poser and DS read them flawlessly. It's a huge time saver.

 

[RAMWolff]

>> Here's where i have a problem with conversions. I shouldn't have to convert anything. The vendor should.

Commercial quality conversions can be nearly as much work as the original figure. Modeling an outfit is actually the easy part ... rigging clothing for a different figure is an entirely different matter. Fitting room conversions may be good for personal use, but I would never release something that was "automatically" converted because there are usually things that need to be cleaned up. In addition to refitting the model (something I usually do manually to make sure it's clean), there is the regrouping, and converting all the morphs. "Copy morphs from" is a good start, but automatic morph conversions frequently need to be cleaned up and smoothed out in places. Weight maps have to be checked to make sure they all work correctly. By the time all of that is done, you might as well have created an entirely new piece of clothing to begin with.

Agreed hon. I don't think many folks realize just how much more work it takes to convert or to even support both platforms. I still think it's a shame that DAZ hasn't learned it's lesson or SM about working TOGETHER to make sure ALL content performs well ... more sales for everyone and an INCENTIVE to published artists to do that extra work but NOPE, both sides have their reasons for moving in opposite directions with the onset of weight mapped figures, clothing and accessories. It's a shame but it is what it is.