How The Hivewire Horse (harry) Came To Be.

[JOdel]

I am not convinced that the Indian ponies weren't descendants of European imports. Early imports, but still, not native to North America.
There were prehistoric equines in North America. They show up in the tar pits and other fossil records. But they were extinct before the Europeans turned up. (Or, quite possibly, the Asians over the land bridge to Alaska in later prehistory. But I'm not sure that they brought horses with them.)

 

[Dreamer]

@JOdel you are quite right, the Indian ponies were descended from the horses that came over with the first European explorers, (Spanish Conquistadors I think), and got loose. Over the years they adapted to their new home and became the wild horses/ponies of America.

 

[Rae134]

actually the Przewalski's was classified as extinct in the wild, now with the help of some captive breeding programs which releases some back they are listed as critically endangered.

With regards to the Native American horses, it is generally agreed by historians that the Spanish brought the horse to the new world in the 1500s. These horses were a mixture of Barb, Arabian and Andalusian blood and were considered the best horses in the world at that time. The Spanish Mustang is probably closest in type to what the original horses the Spanish brought over.
There are other theories that the original Native American horses where of Chinese origin or from the Scythian-Tartar Horse Tribes with a Tarpan Phenotype.

 

[Harimau]

For those of you who are interested in ice age horses, apparently there is evidence that some Pleistocene horses in North America had long, flowing manes. Here is a very interesting article by Darren Naish, a paleontologist, on ice age horses though mainly on European horses:

Spots, Stripes and Spreading Hooves in the Horses of the Ice Age

Dr Naish still uses Equus przewalskii for Przewalski's Horse though I think the latest nomenclature is Equus ferus przewalskii. Here is another article by Dr Naish on asses:

Fantastic asses

Here he mentions that Grevy’s zebra E. grevyi belong to a clade that also included the hemionines (Kiang and Onager) while Hartmann’s mountain zebra E. hartmannae (E. zebra hartmannae) belonged to a clade that also included asinines (African wild ass). The Quagga and plains zebras were off on their own. This concurs with the diagram that I photographed (above).

 

[carmen indorato]

Hi Carmen,

Glad to know we have a shared interest here. By the way, the Quagga that I referred above is the same Quagga that you that you have been pining for all this while. It is extinct now, although some people are trying to breed it from selected plains zebra that have lost some stripes at the hind quarters. Recent molecular genetic studies have shown that it is a subspecies of the plains zebra (in other words it is a plains zebra). That is why the species name for the plains zebra is now Equus quagga and not Equus burchellii (earlier name quagga has precedence). In the poorly taken photo above, the left column of zebras show actual variations of coat patterns in a living subspecies of the plains zebra, the maneless zebra. The middle column shows variations of the coat patterns of the recently extinct quagga taken from preserved skins, old photos and contemporary paintings, and the right column shows variations of the coat patterns of the long extinct Przewalski's type of Pleistocene horses taken from palaeolithic rock paintings. Apparently, the ancestral horse (for all species of Equus) was striped giving rise later to the various configuration of striping in the modern zebras and the loss of stripes in the modern horse and asses (See another badly taken photo below - the caption explains it).View attachment 18132

For anyone else interested here is a link on the Quagga Studies:

The Project

Quagga: Can an Extinct Animal be Bred Back into Existence?

 

[carmen indorato]

actually the Przewalski's was classified as extinct in the wild, now with the help of some captive breeding programs which releases some back they are listed as critically endangered.

With regards to the Native American horses, it is generally agreed by historians that the Spanish brought the horse to the new world in the 1500s. These horses were a mixture of Barb, Arabian and Andalusian blood and were considered the best horses in the world at that time. The Spanish Mustang is probably closest in type to what the original horses the Spanish brought over.
There are other theories that the original Native American horses where of Chinese origin or from the Scythian-Tartar Horse Tribes with a Tarpan Phenotype.

I was aware of this info and it might well be true. What I was referring to was the wilder rougher "look" of these Plains Indians horses and their size relative to the their riders compared to modern horse. What do you folks think could be considered in modern times "THE AVERAGE EVERYDAY HORSE if you had to pick a single breed to represent it?
Funny how man-unkind seems to make the same darn mistakes again and again and again...never learning from them....must be true we are a retarded beast as they say. We work so hard to make something extinct as is the case with the Quagga in South Africa, as well as the American Bison and the current plight of the American Mustang in America and hundreds and thousands of other cases where we played a prime part in species extinction, Justifying our actions in such shallow stupid ways like Clearing the competitive feeders of grasses needed for domestic herds or eliminating a nuisance only to turn around in seeming abject horror and try to bring them back as though we possessed the hand of God!

One of the articles I read actually discussed the Moral and ethical complexities of this train of thought asking if it was right!
What do you all think?

 

[Rae134]

Well, if you were thinking of the Spanish type then the closest would be the Sorraia, Sulphur and Kiger Mustangs. Or even the Crioulo and Konik.

There are several modern Native American horse breeds that may also be suitable. The Nokota, American Indian Horse and the Nez Perce Horse (I love these).
The Nez Perce Horse is a very recent breeding attempt to bring back the Native American type by using Akhal Tekes and Appaloosas. Today's American Appys seem to favour the more quarter horse type but the old foundation stock was not that heavy, think more like Thoroughbred in appearance so by adding the AT they are getting a lighter/finer boned horse that resembles the original type. (Black & White photo is the type they are trying to recreate, the other 2 pix are new breed which you can see is very similar in body type.)

I actually rode a TB stallion very much like that Indian horse, his name was Jetlag, he was so laid back for a stallion. So maybe you could even use the TB or AT as an example of type. (the Red Chestnut and the black Sabino are Thoroughbreds and the Liver Chestnut and Buckskin are Akhal Tekes)

 

[RAMWolff]

WOW.. that dappled brown and white horse above looks undernourished or it's the light playing on it's coat. Also that particular horse's hips seems different.. set higher or something..... bit odd looking to me...

 

[Rae134]

RAM, Do you mean the one that is almost black with the white patches through its coat? Its a racing condition TB, and I think the hip looks strange because of the shadow.
If you mean the NP with the appy coat (third in top row), those lines are just in the coat patern and the horse is resting its leg so the hip is raised.
If you mean the last pic with the golden coat, its an ATs and they are like Greyhounds of the horse world, the ribs you see are actually muscles (some racing TBs are like this too).

 

[RAMWolff]

First one. Cool looking but different!

 

[Dreamer]

I think its the light and angle of the photo RAM, could all so be the conformation too as the croup looks very sloped to me

 

[carmen indorato]

Well, if you were thinking of the Spanish type then the closest would be the Sorraia, Sulphur and Kiger Mustangs. Or even the Crioulo and Konik.

There are several modern Native American horse breeds that may also be suitable. The Nokota, American Indian Horse and the Nez Perce Horse (I love these).
The Nez Perce Horse is a very recent breeding attempt to bring back the Native American type by using Akhal Tekes and Appaloosas. Today's American Appys seem to favour the more quarter horse type but the old foundation stock was not that heavy, think more like Thoroughbred in appearance so by adding the AT they are getting a lighter/finer boned horse that resembles the original type. (Black & White photo is the type they are trying to recreate, the other 2 pix are new breed which you can see is very similar in body type.)

I actually rode a TB stallion very much like that Indian horse, his name was Jetlag, he was so laid back for a stallion. So maybe you could even use the TB or AT as an example of type. (the Red Chestnut and the black Sabino are Thoroughbreds and the Liver Chestnut and Buckskin are Akhal Tekes)

Seems the B&W of the natives o the horse is a bit more recent.....or does not seem like an older native image but one from a reservation thus a bit more recent.
The blanket appears to be with a more modern white man saddle as are the reins. Also the horse looks and sleeker taller than what I have seen in older images and paintings of the Native horses.
Here are some examples of the sizes in relation to the riders. It was that period between when they would have gotten the Spanish mustangs and when the Eastern Migration West of the white man I am trying to clarify in my own head. Would the horses in use then have been smaller than those introduced by the white men?
The color image I posted with the three riders show them with stirrups which were not too often used by earlier native Americans and the fact they are also carrying repeater rifles indicate a more recent historical interpretation. But what I refer to in all this is the size of the rider to the size of the horse. See how in most of them the feet of the riders hangs down lower than it would in a more modern horse and keep in mind too Indians/Native Americans from my readings were shorter in stature than the whites like the Indios of Mexico and South America. Which to my reckoning would mean the horses were also smaller.

 

[Rae134]

The Spanish Mustang ranges from 13.2 to 15 hands and the Sulphur Mustang averages around 14hh (Kigers are taller at 15hh). Bare in mind that Ponies are classified as under 14.2hh (although some breeds of ponies can be larger and some horses smaller than this guide).
So they would still fit in to what you are looking for in type.
So would ATs as they range from 14.3 to 16hh so a small one would work for a more lighter build. TBs stand around 15.2 to 17.0 but I've seen smaller. My neighbour had a racing TB that was only 14.2hh so you do get smaller ones.

The Sorraia Mustang ranges 14 and 14.3 and is very close in looks to the Tarpan (or Eurasian wild horse) which is an extinct subspecies of wild horse and is another possibility.

 

[carmen indorato]

Hi

Thanks for the species but what i still need is a good morph and texture set for one horse that fits the bill of early Indian pony either for the MilHorse or Harry. The one you posted is nice, which is it? This is more along the lines of what I am looking for but now I needa morph t/exture pak that will duplicate this look n Poser!

 

[Rae134]

Is this kind of what you are after?
It is Harry with 50% Shetland dialled in (also 100% roman nose), the coat is the Red Dunskin desaturated in photoshop, (100% Harry with the Red Dunskin in background for comparison). I've added Nataani for Dusk as he's shorter than normal Dusk.

you can always play more with the dials to get closer to what you are after.

(ignore the lighter ears, stuffed up, I forgot to look at the seams )

 

[carmen indorato]

Looks good!
I'll try these dial size morphs.
Don.t have Naatani but I have other M4 and V4 figures I have already been using.
Thanks.

Now if only we can get some native prehistorical tac for the horse I be happy happy happy!

 

[Freyfaxi]

From what I've read...the prehistoric horse in the America's went extinct before humans entered the continent..so there'll be no prehistoric tack for horses in the America's prior to the Spanish arrivals. But here's an interesting possibility ( highly unlikely, I'll admit) It seems the Eurasian horse evolved from American ones when they migrated OUT of the America's prior to their extinction there. What if the humans who migrated INTO the America's were already familiar with the Eurasian horses and had managed to take some of those along when they migrated into the America's ?

 

[Dragonsegg]

Something has been bugging me for a long time, and at the risk or seeming critical... Someone really needs to do a morph for Harry's head down/grazing that makes it more realistic or maybe the model itself needs to be modified. I can do it myself in blender and will, but every time I look at a render of Harry where his head is down the shape of his neck just makes me cringe. The neck is much too "cresty" at the base as it arches down. With a real horse the shoulder stands out and the neck hinges off of that and has a bit of a dip where the neck comes off the shoulder. I am probably not explaining it well but it just does not look right to me. If anyone is interested I can make a blender screenshot with a grazing horse image behind Harry's object while grazing so you can see what I am talking about.

 

[carmen indorato]

From what I've read...the prehistoric horse in the America's went extinct before humans entered the continent..so there'll be no prehistoric tack for horses in the America's prior to the Spanish arrivals. But here's an interesting possibility ( highly unlikely, I'll admit) It seems the Eurasian horse evolved from American ones when they migrated OUT of the America's prior to their extinction there. What if the humans who migrated INTO the America's were already familiar with the Eurasian horses and had managed to take some of those along when they migrated into the America's ?

Sorry for the historical GAF. I had a brain fart and could not think of how to describe tac from between the Spaniard interdiction and introduction to the Americas and the white movement West. Early Native American might been a better use of discriptives.
All the rest is pure conjecture. I have no idea of the historical details of migration patterns of humans and horses and who moved what. Just looking for a primitive tac.....rope and wood and rough cut and manufactured leather.

 

[carmen indorato]

Something has been bugging me for a long time, and at the risk or seeming critical... Someone really needs to do a morph for Harry's head down/grazing that makes it more realistic or maybe the model itself needs to be modified. I can do it myself in blender and will, but every time I look at a render of Harry where his head is down the shape of his neck just makes me cringe. The neck is much too "cresty" at the base as it arches down. With a real horse the shoulder stands out and the neck hinges off of that and has a bit of a dip where the neck comes off the shoulder. I am probably not explaining it well but it just does not look right to me. If anyone is interested I can make a blender screenshot with a grazing horse image behind Harry's object while grazing so you can see what I am talking about.

Been a problem since the P4 horse. I guess there only so many natural functions content creators can include in a Poser figure. Every user has a different thing he or she is fussy about. Mine is girls feet, buttocks, shoulders and hair. Others is the makep and facial features. Animal lovers are real particular about movements and body shapes/proportions in animals the horse lovers the most particular.
If I knew how I would fix all the problems i trip over in Poser figures as needed on the fly but alas I am horribly deficient in modeling so I can only pray my particular fetish or obsession is shared by someone else who can fix and hope like some beggar they fix it....for me.