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Grouping in DS and trouble with .cr2 export

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
So I'm trying to convert a DS item to Poser, and I'm having issues. I think it has to do with grouping in DS, but I'm not sure. So here's what's happening:

I can't get the the item to export correctly as a .cr2. When I open the exported .cr2 in Poser, I don't get any geometry. The rig has come over, I have the correct skeleton, but don't have any geometry.

So a couple things I tried, was first doing it on a different computer, because I do feel like there are some crazy software issues hiding in my laptop, but no, my desktop gives me the same result. I also tried exporting another item to make sure I wasn't missing a step (as well as rewatching some tutorials just in case) and I'm able to export other items just fine.

So I went and opened up the .cr2 file in a text editor to figure out what might be happening. Since I wasn't seeing any geometry, my first thought was that for some reason the path to the .obj file was bad. But I double checked it, and even switched it to not use the DS version of the geometry, but the .obj file included by the creator. Still no geometry.

Did some more digging in the .cr2 file and compared it to other .cr2 files and here's what I discovered. Here's what I get in the .cr2 for the item I'm having trouble with in the section right after the paths for the geometry and .pmd files are given:

Code:
actor BODY:1
    {

    }
actor rShin:1
    {
    }
actor rFoot:1
    {
    }
actor rToe:1
    {
    }
actor lShin:1
    {
    }
actor lFoot:1
    {
    }
actor lToe:1
    {
    }

It's a set of boots for Dawn, so I mostly have all the bones, although I feel like I'll need to fix the fact that the hip and the pelvis have gone missing, but ignoring that you'll notice that other than listing the bones, there isn't much there. Here's an example from another set of shoes that does load correctly:
Code:
actor BODY:1
    {

    }
actor hip:1
    {
    }
actor abdomen:1
    {
    }
actor pelvis:1
    {
    }
actor rThigh:1
    {
    }
actor rShin:1
    {
    storageOffset 0 0 0
    geomHandlerGeom 13 rShin 
    }
actor rFoot:1
    {
    storageOffset 0 0 0
    geomHandlerGeom 13 rFoot 
    }
actor rToe:1
    {
    storageOffset 0 0 0
    geomHandlerGeom 13 rToe 
    }

And so on. So I'm pretty sure the issue is that the exported .cr2 for whatever reason isn't brining over any info on how to group the geometry to the bones.

So what do I do to fix this in DS so it will export correctly? In this case I really want to export from DS because the base geometry doesn't match up to Dawn's zero pose, so rigging from scratch in Poser is not easy. Any ideas on why this is happening with this item and not other items?
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I can't help with this specific problem, but I will note for you that DS grouping has not aligned with Poser grouping since the advent of DS4. DS groups are all over the place when exported.

I would suggest you group the original object file for Poser grouping.
 

3WC

Engaged
Contributing Artist
Or just manually add in that "storageOffset 0 0 0 geomHendlerGeom 13 rFoot" etc. to your cr2. Usually this happens to me whenever I have spaces in the names of the DS groups. Don't know why. I usually just add the geometry to the cr2 manually in a text editor.
 

Pendraia

Sage
Contributing Artist
I can see two options, one persevere with the cr2 and trying to fix it or you could export the object from DS once you have conformed it using reverse source...(this can sometimes have issues depending on the item though)and do your groups in Poser. It does work some of the time using a cr2 but I do know that perfectionists like Traci and Ken do not like the way DS groups. No offense meant by the term perfectionist I have a lot of admiration for both of them and their knowledge of Poser. More a case of I don't know enough to know any better... ; )

Render of my tshirt for Dawn exported as cr2 in Poser. just colours no diffuse.
Untitled.png
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
I can't help with this specific problem, but I will note for you that DS grouping has not aligned with Poser grouping since the advent of DS4. DS groups are all over the place when exported.

Thanks for letting me know that. I figured it was something along the lines of that and I figured out this might be a good time to figure out some more of what DS does.

Or just manually add in that "storageOffset 0 0 0 geomHendlerGeom 13 rFoot" etc. to your cr2. Usually this happens to me whenever I have spaces in the names of the DS groups. Don't know why. I usually just add the geometry to the cr2 manually in a text editor.

Hmm, okay, so I take it the storageOffset should always be 0 0 0 and then there should always be a 13 before putting in the name of the body part? I'll have to try this and see what happens.

I can see two options, one persevere with the cr2 and trying to fix it or you could export the object from DS once you have conformed it using reverse source...(this can sometimes have issues depending on the item though)and do your groups in Poser.

I was actually thinking of a work around similar to what you are suggesting. I wasn't going to do the reverse source shape, just conform the item and zero Dawn, so that she's not in the high heel position. Then export out the .obj file and rig that in Poser.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'll be working on this this after noon and let you know what happens.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I can see two options, one persevere with the cr2 and trying to fix it or you could export the object from DS once you have conformed it using reverse source...(this can sometimes have issues depending on the item though)and do your groups in Poser. It does work some of the time using a cr2 but I do know that perfectionists like Traci and Ken do not like the way DS groups. No offense meant by the term perfectionist I have a lot of admiration for both of them and their knowledge of Poser. More a case of I don't know enough to know any better... ; )

Render of my tshirt for Dawn exported as cr2 in Poser. just colours no diffuse.

Not as much perfectionist as knowing that eventually we will have to group it correctly for Poser and lose a lot of work. If you re-group, in Poser you have to completely re-rig.

Even Poser's autogrouping does the same thing, so we just learned to do it before we start rigging to save a lot of hair pulling.

I've had one abdomen polygon grouped randomly in the forearm before and lost all the rigging I had done because of it. Learned my lesson.
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
Not as much perfectionist as knowing that eventually we will have to group it correctly for Poser and lose a lot of work. If you re-group, in Poser you have to completely re-rig.

I think had I gotten this to export as a working .cr2 (meaning one with the geometry) I'd have to re-rig anyway, since the DS skeleton doesn't seem to have bones for the hip or pelvis, it has the body as the root bone. I'm not sure if that would have worked in Poser.

Interesting it doesn't really seemed grouped in DS. I decided to conform it, zero Dawn, and then export the .obj file of boots in a zero Pose to rig in Poser. There's I think four different options when exporting an .obj out of DS for grouping and I tried them all to see what would happen. I tried them all to see if I could figure out what the DS groups were, and there really weren't any other than the material groups. The other groups I could export the .obj as just included al the geometry, so they weren't broken up by body part at all.

The good news is that Poser actually did a very good job of auto-grouping this for me when I sent it through the fitting room. I may clean up the grouping a little just to follow the edge loops of the geometry, but in this case, the auto-grouping that Poser did is usable (I often start by checking because if Poser does a good job I often find that the easiest way to go. If Poser has done a terrible job and the only thing I've done is sending the object through the fitting room once, I've only lost a minute or two of time.)
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I think had I gotten this to export as a working .cr2 (meaning one with the geometry) I'd have to re-rig anyway, since the DS skeleton doesn't seem to have bones for the hip or pelvis, it has the body as the root bone. I'm not sure if that would have worked in Poser.

Interesting it doesn't really seemed grouped in DS. I decided to conform it, zero Dawn, and then export the .obj file of boots in a zero Pose to rig in Poser. There's I think four different options when exporting an .obj out of DS for grouping and I tried them all to see what would happen. I tried them all to see if I could figure out what the DS groups were, and there really weren't any other than the material groups. The other groups I could export the .obj as just included al the geometry, so they weren't broken up by body part at all.

The good news is that Poser actually did a very good job of auto-grouping this for me when I sent it through the fitting room. I may clean up the grouping a little just to follow the edge loops of the geometry, but in this case, the auto-grouping that Poser did is usable (I often start by checking because if Poser does a good job I often find that the easiest way to go. If Poser has done a terrible job and the only thing I've done is sending the object through the fitting room once, I've only lost a minute or two of time.)

That's what I typically see as well with DS exports. I'm not sure, since I don't do DS rigging anymore, but I think DS is basically moving away from grouping completely. Not necessarily a bad thing unless you're trying to re-create the CR2 in Poser.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Here ya go, good example.........when Pendraia and I were working on the Diva wardrobe, she exported from DS for me. This is the grouping comparison I did because I found the DS grouping to be unusable. So, you can see why it's just better to group for Poser than fighting with it.

DSGrouping.jpg
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Just wondering can you edit grouping in Poser or do you have to begin from scratch?

You can edit, but it's much easier to just start over. The grouping tool in Poser is very hard to use with much precision. And, when you're done re-grouping, you have to export the object to retain the grouping and start rigging all over on the new object anyway.
 

Pendraia

Sage
Contributing Artist
Thanks for the info Traci...DS doesn't really do grouping as such. There is no need to group an item before rigging so totally an area I'm not familiar with.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Thanks for the info Traci...DS doesn't really do grouping as such. There is no need to group an item before rigging so totally an area I'm not familiar with.

You're welcome, Pendraia. I would strongly suggest, if you are going to be grouping Poser products, you invest in Auto Group Editor. It's available at Renderosity, and while not cheap, the time and effort saved by it is worth every penny.

I'm not sure if it runs under Windows10, but you can send an email to markdc at RO and ask if you are on Win10.
 

Pendraia

Sage
Contributing Artist
I'm on Win7 still...I'll look into it and see what I can afford. Still haven't gotten to the point of having anything I think worth converting but I'm working on revamping the tshirt and shorts that I did for Dawn with more morphs including one for Diva.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I'm on Win7 still...I'll look into it and see what I can afford. Still haven't gotten to the point of having anything I think worth converting but I'm working on revamping the tshirt and shorts that I did for Dawn with more morphs including one for Diva.

I hear ya (afford). I will say, though, it's the only Poser utility I purchased years ago that I still use. Most of them have been incorporated into Poser, but AGE makes grouping easier than anything I have used.
 

NG Artplay

Eager
Contributing Artist
Traci turned me on to AGE way back when and I found it to be a great tool. Thanks Traci! Poser's fitting room can be used too (it's like using DS's transfer utility) but I don't know many vendors who let Poser do the grouping. I've grouped in my modeler, grouped in Poser and AGE but I like AGE best.
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
You can edit, but it's much easier to just start over. The grouping tool in Poser is very hard to use with much precision. And, when you're done re-grouping, you have to export the object to retain the grouping and start rigging all over on the new object anyway.

It can defiantly be hard to use Poser's grouping tool, especially on things like pants where you have tricked to get to areas. I'm curious though, why do you have to export the object and bring it back in? I don't feel like I've had to do this. I usually use the grouping tool in the setup room because I find it tends to be too limited elsewhere. Don't know if that makes a difference.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
It can defiantly be hard to use Poser's grouping tool, especially on things like pants where you have tricked to get to areas. I'm curious though, why do you have to export the object and bring it back in? I don't feel like I've had to do this. I usually use the grouping tool in the setup room because I find it tends to be too limited elsewhere. Don't know if that makes a difference.

I'm talking about using the grouping tool in the Pose screen. In that case you have to create new groups, then assign the polygons. They do not remain so grouped unless you save the object.

Once you have a new object with new groups, you have to use THAT object to use THOSE groups.
 
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