• Welcome to the Community Forums at HiveWire 3D! Please note that the user name you choose for our forum will be displayed to the public. Our store was closed as January 4, 2021. You can find HiveWire 3D and Lisa's Botanicals products, as well as many of our Contributing Artists, at Renderosity. This thread lists where many are now selling their products. Renderosity is generously putting products which were purchased at HiveWire 3D and are now sold at their store into customer accounts by gifting them. This is not an overnight process so please be patient, if you have already emailed them about this. If you have NOT emailed them, please see the 2nd post in this thread for instructions on what you need to do

Discussion about content

Hornet3d

Wise
Just an example of what 3D models are sold for at TurboSquid: $229 for a female figure, rigged, textured, fixed hair, no morphs. And this is a cheap one.

3D woman jean model - TurboSquid 1334834

There is another similar one with facial expressions that goes for $999. No clothing, no body morphs.

Where is the market do you think, it is too expensive for the hobbyist market and I doubt it is useful enough for the professional user.
 

eclark1894

Visionary
You know, just to remind you, Dawn wasn't the only new figure that came out that year. Remember Animotions??? Or more importantly, Diane Thuregrif? She's a vendor at Rendo these days, but back then she closed Animotions and released a figure known as Mariko. Apparently, it didn't do very well. Most of you probably don't even remember her. BTW, she still has the figure for sale in her Rendo store. Like I said, about that time I was heavily into Roxie and Miki 4.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
Where is the market do you think, it is too expensive for the hobbyist market and I doubt it is useful enough for the professional user.

That was just to show the value of 3D work at one place and another.

You know, just to remind you, Dawn wasn't the only new figure that came out that year. Remember Animotions???

I could make quite a list of forgotten figures that didn't make it for one reason or another. They were all for Poser, and got the cold shoulder from the community. Even when there was nothing left besides old V4, the community still wouldn't support Dawn. Some decided to wait for years until PE came out, and failed soon after. Why not get the Dawn figure that was already there? They cared more about who makes the figure than the figure itself. Makes me wonder what kind of reception Dawn 2 will receive.
 

AnimaGemini

Living in the clouds
Contributing Artist
And exactly the same can be said of those who bash DS, Daz and the Genesis range, I remember the venom of the some Poser users when Genesis was first released, that got pretty personal as well. And here again we have a thread dedicated to bashing others choices and perpetuating rumours that suit their agenda.
While you are right that Poser users was also not bad with bashing DS and Genesis, this thread here is not bashing at all. It is just a simple discussions .Exchange of some different POV.
I personal , I like Genesis, use DS and spent a huge amount of money on the DAZ MP when Poser get dormant with the Poser 11 release from SM.
I become again interested after Rendero announce their buy out Poser and crossed finger ever since.
I Buy Poser 12 and will support it, but also will use DS when it suits my inspiration.
For me Poser does have a future and I do think Rendo have made a good start with their ownership, it is not to everyone's liking but at least they appear to have been upfront about their aims and plans for the future. I have been running Poser 12 virtually from the day of launch and I am happy with Poser 12, Dawn SE combination for almost all my renders. There are many that say there is limited content for Dawn but I can easily come up with over thirty different outfits and, if you add in the supplied texture variations I can easily double that figure and that without resorting to kit bashing. The same is often said for general Poser content but I have no problems spending my entire monthly budget every month on new content and I still have items in my wish list.

100% agree. Now that Rendero take Poser over, many people was hoping that they will do some magic and catch up the last view years where Poser was abandoned by SM . Well the "magic" did not happen, after all, those are only human like you and me who are working hard on fixing errors and put out new versions and not some kind of super beings. Many are disappointed , but they would be disappointed anyway. No matter what new fancy stuff comes with new Poser releases.
But the core is still there. So there is hope .
I know that feeling. Vendors being underappreciated has become common ground in this market. Like you said, it's hard work, in some cases expensive too. Takes years to learn. It's obviously too much work for the price it is sold for, and then we have to hear customers claiming it should be cheaper or even free. I have heard this the first time back in 2005, when Aiko3 was given away for free - that has changed everything. The rule of thumb has become to only buy on sales, which say something about what the market has become. We've got to a point where 3D has become synonym of "dirt cheap", at least in this market.
This is sad but so true. In the past, I buy tons of content which I after never use and even forgot .But it was "cheap" and in big sale. Just last year I cleaned out all my content hard drive and throw away gigabytes of very old stuff which never see the light of the render engine. And never will, because not up to date anymore.
Today, I buy my content differently. I become more responsive. I buy way less, but I am also willing to pay the full price. Have bought the last 2-3 years many stuff at the full price, because I liked it and want to do a render , or I had an inspiration where this particular item fit exact my needs.At the end, I spent less than in the past and have new content which I really like and will use more often instead to let it catch dust on the digital shelf.
 

AnimaGemini

Living in the clouds
Contributing Artist
That was just to show the value of 3D work at one place and another.



I could make quite a list of forgotten figures that didn't make it for one reason or another. They were all for Poser, and got the cold shoulder from the community. Even when there was nothing left besides old V4, the community still wouldn't support Dawn. Some decided to wait for years until PE came out, and failed soon after. Why not get the Dawn figure that was already there? They cared more about who makes the figure than the figure itself. Makes me wonder what kind of reception Dawn 2 will receive.
Well, lets make her famous. Don't give the mob any chance to bash her. As soon as she is released, support her. Post pics, talk about her positive sites, instead of what she is missing. Everybody who can, should support her. Free items, or for to buy. There are many ways to support her.
And at last, in case the flaming war begins again, stand up for her. Don't let again the mob win. :)
 

Hornet3d

Wise
Well, lets make her famous. Don't give the mob any chance to bash her. As soon as she is released, support her. Post pics, talk about her positive sites, instead of what she is missing. Everybody who can, should support her. Free items, or for to buy. There are many ways to support her.
And at last, in case the flaming war begins again, stand up for her. Don't let again the mob win. :)

I will certainly buy Dawn 2 but I have to admit at this point I am not sure how much I will use her irrespective of how good the figure is. I have a been trying for ages to come up with a story along with a set of renders to help tell that story. Problem then is my character is quite specific so a move to any other figure would be a major rework of what I have already to keep the character consistent through the story.
 

AnimaGemini

Living in the clouds
Contributing Artist
I will certainly buy Dawn 2 but I have to admit at this point I am not sure how much I will use her irrespective of how good the figure is. I have a been trying for ages to come up with a story along with a set of renders to help tell that story. Problem then is my character is quite specific so a move to any other figure would be a major rework of what I have already to keep the character consistent through the story.
Fair enough. But how I understand, Dawn 2 will be capable to use DawnSR stuff. Morphs, I am not sure. But maybe you get surprised :D
I am also working since a while on my own story .Till now , just written story line, sketches exist. Want to create it full in Blender, but therefore I need to learn how to model Character, , specifically toons. So and while I anyway want to learn character morphs, texturing for Poser, I bite the bullet and enroll a few courses to learn Stylized and toon character creating. For an hardsurface modeler quite challenging. But I make great progress so far :D
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
Dawn 2 will be capable to use DawnSR stuff. Morphs, I am not sure.

Dawn 2 will be a whole new figure, with new geometry, new UV maps, new everything. I don't know about DawnSE poses, but it is certain that textures, morphs, and clothing will not work with her. Maybe we can project DawnSE morphs to her, but we will have to see when the time comes.
 

AnimaGemini

Living in the clouds
Contributing Artist
Dawn 2 will be a whole new figure, with new geometry, new UV maps, new everything. I don't know about DawnSE poses, but it is certain that textures, morphs, and clothing will not work with her. Maybe we can project DawnSE morphs to her, but we will have to see when the time comes.
Ah yes, I misunderstand then. Thanks.
 

Rae134

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I'm sure I read somewhere that Chris was hoping for some compatibility, could be mistaken tho

Edited to add: very first bullet point on the first post of the Dawn 2 thread:
* We will provide a Dawn S.E. morph for backwards compatibility.
 
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Benjamin

Inspired
Contributing Artist
I have the impression the Poser community is very divided, and hostile against new figures. V4 was a good example of a very flawed figure that got extremely popular, while anything made by other people was immediately shot on sight. After a while, people just stopped trying to come up with new figures for Poser, because it was a lost cause. I have witnessed how unforgiving the Poser community was to new entries. That's the same people who later complain about the lack of Poser figures. That's one thing I have seen in first hand when it happened. Makes no sense, but that's how it went.

There was also the turf war between figure makers, like PE vs Dawn vs Pauline at the SMS Poser forums. They really wanted to sink the other figures to defend some that weren't even made yet - quite the loyal crowd. Neither PE nor Pauline have succeeded, but they managed to shoot Dawn down, so in the end, everybody lost. That's a classic example of how divided the Poser community has always been. I wonder if that would ever change.
Yes that is unforunately the case and it's a huge loss for everyone. I always supported the other figures, never went mainstream DAZ figures, with one exeption, a set for M4 that someone requested.
The issue might not ever change and personally I'm wondering how much of the Poser community is really left and how much will still sink they're money into Poser 12. Personally I won't, can't validate paying the $129 they ask for very little in return.
I agree that vendors and their work is undervalued but really cannot see how that will change at this point. The furniture industry is a good example where they started a sales war and discounted prices on three piece suites and the like and now no body expects to pay full price. While I am sure there are some very ungrateful Poser users out there and always have been I think, customers on the whole have become a lot more confrontational and aggressive. I am getting on in my years so my view of this could be put down to grumpy old man syndrome but I live in the UK and it is only in recent years that violence and aggression occurs almost every night in our accident and emergency units. It has been come so bad hospitals now often have their own police station or security guards on standby 24/7. I know that is an extreme example but having worked in retail for a few years before my retirement I saw the average customer get more demanding generally more aggressive over the period of my employment.
True, people seem to becoming more hostile over the years, but not everyone though. So far I've only encountered grateful and satisfied customers, but that might be due to the cartoon niche I'm in, where there's not a huge competition or large amount of content. Me retiring as a content creator has way more to do with the demand of stores. I'm getting older too and changing my render format and folder format yet another time is too much for me. Can't keep up anymore. I got a request by customers and store to revive my older products, but people don't realize the work that's involved in that. Being in a niche has of course another downside these days with less and less customers, the return rate is getting less and less. Creating content is fun, but really time demanding.
 

Benjamin

Inspired
Contributing Artist
I gave it up for many of the reasons you mention, plus the gradually worsening attitudes of some (not all) of the customer base (despite having been out of the game for a while now I still have some very, very solid die-hard supporters whom I am very, very grateful for!), plus a number of other factors. Like you I don't miss it much except to miss my long-time friends, supporters, and my mentors (Like BeyondVr and MrSparky) who got me started back before the community went to smash...

The work we have to do to create content as Vendors is greatly underapreciated and undervalued by both the shops and the customers far too often, and the greif and abuse we often have to take just to try and sell our products is often times not worth the effort that was put into the products in the first place... 18 hour days for days or weeks on end, and then days or weeks of beta-testing, QA Testing, tweaks and fixes, promo renders, advertising, customer relations, and, and, and... all for a 20-30$ item that after a store takes its cut we'll see 15$ (or far less) on and someone always finding something to complain about no matter what you provide or how much effort you took... It all drains away your will to create and the love of the hobby...

Then there's having to deal with copyright theft thanks to people stealing your works and uploading them to share or sell as their own, and a million and one other hassles that the customers never even hear about...

True...... that's why I liked CP so much :) so much less hassle, 70% cut for the vendor and people who know that you are bringing value would still buy from you there. Only the thought of moving my few remaining HiveWire3D items to Rendo just makes me nervous of all I have to deal with. So, no thank you, I'm not prepared with all the hassle they make me go through. I rather retire.

Actually, if I am recalling correctly, CP's biggest criticism was that it was almost TOO easy for anyone to be a vendor. All I ever heard was that there was no quality control there.

True, but customers who know me as a vendor from being at Rendo and RDNA at the time, had no issue buying my items. The huge advantage of CP was that the vendor could totally control the prices and got the largest cut. That allowed me to lower my prices a little. Not to even mention that CP allowed a nice sale each months. A bit like Prime flash, but for everyone and a longer period of time. That way not only new products did sell well, but also older products. RDNA had them at $5, Rendo something like that as well, but CP allowed items to go for $2, a bit like DAZ PC Club. That made my older products sell really well. There we months I made just a little from RDNA and Rendo (think around $50 for a store) while having quite a library of content at those stores..... while in that same month I would be top seller at CP (think 5-10 times the amount from the other stores). That not happening occasionaly, but often.

You can imagine I was sad when CP closed, even though I hadn't added many models for two years, the store still sold nicely each month. For years I've used that money to update software (Vue and Poser) and buy a new computer. By that time I already had shifted my business focus, but it still was nice to have a little extra to spent. The close came a little too early for me, if they only had kept the store open for another 1.5-2 years it would have made things easier for me.
 

eclark1894

Visionary
And exactly the same can be said of those who bash DS, Daz and the Genesis range, I remember the venom of the some Poser users when Genesis was first released, that got pretty personal as well. And here again we have a thread dedicated to bashing others choices and perpetuating rumours that suit their agenda.
I honestly haven't heard anyone bashing Genesis in this thread I don't think. Point 'em out, and I'll join you in criticizing them or at least ask them to explain themselves.
 

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
Dawn 2 will be a whole new figure, with new geometry, new UV maps, new everything. I don't know about DawnSE poses, but it is certain that textures, morphs, and clothing will not work with her. Maybe we can project DawnSE morphs to her, but we will have to see when the time comes.
I hope that Chris improved the eye geometry. I've just finished up Tommy and Tina for Poser (off to my beta testers today) and was reminded of one niggle.. the ring around the Iris is a bit problematic. I got it under control but any improvement in that are would be welcome!
 

Satira Capriccio

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Many DAZ and Poser users are hobbyists. I think that's rather safe to say. Non Professional users aren't always interested in "new bells and whistles" or advanced technology. The perceived lack of support (aka limited potential content) is one of the most important considerations for many users.

People often prefer to rely on information from a "circle of friends/acquaintances" rather than from those knowledgeable about a subject. Researching from legitimate sources seems to be a lost skill.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of concern over whether that information is accurate. If a Facebook friend (or forum acquaintance) says this is the case, or a lot of people agree, regardless of their qualifications, then it's true. The last four years certainly seems to indicate that for a lot of people, accuracy and legitimacy just isn't all that important.

Consequently, it's not surprising people based their decisions on whether Dawn was a good figure on what they heard from others. All it takes is for someone with a "presence" to state something is trash, and it's gospel. Years and years later, it's still gospel.

It doesn't matter whether someone is a DAZ user or a Poser user, the behavior is the same. They heard (or read) a comment from someone they "trust," so it's true.

Some of it is just human behavior, but some of it is a failure of the educational system. There were a whole lot of years where playing hacky sack or frisbees was far more important than boring things like history, reading, writing, research ...
 

Hornet3d

Wise
Some of it may well be down to the education system but then that leads on to another possibility in that a few may actually using those not well supported by the education system to met their own ends. Sadly I feel we have gone from a world of individual thinkers who would question and want to do something with their life to one where the aim is to be like everyone else so we can feel we belong. Some people today spend small fortune for designer clothing, ones with the right label, thus the aim is to dress like all the rest rather than be different. There is a dire need to be famous, doesn't matter why, if allowing yourself to be filmed while sleeping with someone you have only just met makes you famous, so be it. That clearly is equally valid as having found a cure for some disease that kills people, the aim is to be famous the reason why matters not one jot. It is a world where we pay small fortunes to people who entertain and a pittance to those that save lives. We are happy to see our sports people buy fast cars and planes but spend a virtually nothing on PPE that may save the lives of those risking theirs to try and tend us when we are sick.

I come from a world where having clothes that kept you warm was the goal, where if I made a statement that started with the words 'everyone knows' I was shot down in flames as clearly everyone did not know, what were my sources, how could I prove what I said had some validity. People were always more likely to question rather than accept but is somehow seemed not only a more friendly world but a more interesting world where you leant something every day. Thankfully I have lived most my life in a world full of leaders not a bunch of spinless wimps who's view on right and wrong is decided on the basis of which view keeps them in power. No wonder this spills over into the way we live and the hobbies we follow.
I learnt to question, was encouraged to ask and with that my understanding grew. I learnt new words, new ways of finding agreement and ways to approach people who had different thought but otherwise where much like me. Later in life people often sought my opinion not because they wanted to check if my views matched theirs but because I would tell them what I genuinely thought and they respected the fact that I would.

I am now in the final chapters of my life, it has been an enjoyable story, one of excitement and intrigue but for all that, sadly I will be leaving the world in a far bigger mess and than the one I was born into. I just think god I never had children but then that was by design because I could see the world we were creating and I did not want the responsibility of throwing another individual to suffer the world we have made.

That I guess is why I spend so much on Poser content, I am much happier living in my Poser world than I am in the real one and, thanks to our 'it will never happen' attitude, I now have plenty of time to spend in my Poser world.
 

KageRyu

Lost Mad Soul
Contributing Artist
Sadly I recall mostly being an outcast in school and told more than once by teachers I brought bullying on myself and deserved it because I "didn't try to fit in or conform". I learned far more outside of school by asking and researching what interested me, and questioning what I didn't understand than I did in school which seemed more focused on creating good little conforming drones that didn't ask questions or stand out.
 
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