• Welcome to the new Community Forums at HiveWire 3D! Please note that for security purposes our store and forum are on two separate servers so you will require a separate login for each. The store will ask you for your Real Name (WILL NOT BE displayed to the public) and the forum will ask you for a User Name (WILL BE displayed to the public). You may use the same email address and password for both.
  • We are having some issues with our customized styles. The forum will be open with the default style until we can correct the issues. Thank you for your patience.

Dawn 2.0 Underway

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
We are certainly creating more than large breasts. Did you see the small ones too, and the navel shapes, recent abdomen folds and other feature shapes?

Tparo, more is still coming, some of those will effect limbs, torsos and more expressions and visemes. However I was not planning on any limb or torso lengthening, but was planning on scaling to be used for ultimate customization. Is this an oversight? Would love to hear more feedback on that plan.
 

tparo

Engaged
QAV-BEE
Personally I think it is an oversight.
I'm not really interested in loads visemes and expressions (especially if there are face handles), I rarely use them as is but I really need morphs that alter the eyes etc more than those we have for Dawn at the moment. Yes I knoew there are other breast shapes and sizes but how many do you actually need?
As Dawn doesn't work the same as Genesis all the body morphs seem to do is create work for creators as they have to do all the morphs so clothes fit. to me concentrating on the face/head at least means Dawn can look different and distinctive pretty easily without worrying if clothing is going to fit.
Scaling is fine but its time consuming and fiddly, if I'm gong to do it I'm going to use a figure which enables me to do it quickly.
 

KageRyu

Lost Mad Soul
Contributing Artist
What I would like to see is shaping morphs, leg length, shin and thigh length, arm and torso length, sizing morphs wrist ankle knee and elbow that actually alter the size of the whole joint, I would like something that changes the proportions a bit like the Star 2 proprtion does on the Genesis 2 figure.
I concur - morphs to adjust length and overall figure proportions for Forearms, Arms, Shins, Thighs, Torso, and waist length as well as Neck length would be very useful. Finger length too would be nice. Especially handy for creating ultra-tall or emaciated looks. (Aliens, Light Worlders, Ghouls, Undead, some types of Elves and fae).

Some good suggestions there, but length and size is easily adjusted with scaling of each separate limb, don't really see the need for morphs for that.
While this can be done with scaling to an extent, using scaling for this in Poser is somewhat broken and often disrupts joints and causes many other issues - especially with clothing fitting. I have a few figures in Poser that handle this as morphs and it is far preferred/superior IMHO.
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
While this can be done with scaling to an extent, using scaling for this in Poser is somewhat broken and often disrupts joints and causes many other issues - especially with clothing fitting. I have a few figures in Poser that handle this as morphs and it is far preferred/superior IMHO.
While this is true for older figures, it is no longer the case for modern figures. There have been changes under the hood in Poser itself the last few years, and modern figures like PE and La Femme can be scaled as much as you want without issues. Joints work and clothes fit! This modern tech will also be used on Dawn2, so scaling shouldn't be an issue for her either.
 

KageRyu

Lost Mad Soul
Contributing Artist
While this is true for older figures, it is no longer the case for modern figures. There have been changes under the hood in Poser itself the last few years, and modern figures like PE and La Femme can be scaled as much as you want without issues. Joints work and clothes fit! This modern tech will also be used on Dawn2, so scaling shouldn't be an issue for her either.
I had the issues with scaling I speak of happen on newer figures: Dawn, Dawn SE, Dusk, Roxie, and even Pauline when I beta tested P11. The issues still very much exist. I tried using body part scaling in a recent image with Dawn SE and it broke joints, and it is causing me significant problems with my attempts at a Monster Gorilla I was working on. In fact one of the changes under the hood broke something that previously worked - i.e. if I had clothing parented to a figure and scaled a body part clothing used to auto-scale, now I need to do it manually as of P2012-2014 - this may or may not have been fixed in 11.2, I do not use it as my workstation will not run it, but was still true in the pre 11.1 betas when I left the beta program.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
While this is true for older figures, it is no longer the case for modern figures. There have been changes under the hood in Poser itself the last few years, and modern figures like PE and La Femme can be scaled as much as you want without issues. Joints work and clothes fit! This modern tech will also be used on Dawn2, so scaling shouldn't be an issue for her either.
I agree with Willowisp - scaling done in Poser figures is not best done with morphs, which creates a lot of work for clothing creators making those morphs work in clothing. Instead, Poser's native scaling works much better AND doesn't require a vendor to completely remake a scaled piece of clothing.

Scaled.jpg
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
I had the issues with scaling I speak of happen on newer figures: Dawn, Dawn SE, Dusk, Roxie, and even Pauline when I beta tested P11. The issues still very much exist. I tried using body part scaling in a recent image with Dawn SE and it broke joints, and it is causing me significant problems with my attempts at a Monster Gorilla I was working on. In fact one of the changes under the hood broke something that previously worked - i.e. if I had clothing parented to a figure and scaled a body part clothing used to auto-scale, now I need to do it manually as of P2012-2014 - this may or may not have been fixed in 11.2, I do not use it as my workstation will not run it, but was still true in the pre 11.1 betas when I left the beta program.
The figures you list here are not modern figures, they are becoming quite dated. Poser has been improved much since Pauline.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I had the issues with scaling I speak of happen on newer figures: Dawn, Dawn SE, Dusk, Roxie, and even Pauline when I beta tested P11. The issues still very much exist. I tried using body part scaling in a recent image with Dawn SE and it broke joints, and it is causing me significant problems with my attempts at a Monster Gorilla I was working on. In fact one of the changes under the hood broke something that previously worked - i.e. if I had clothing parented to a figure and scaled a body part clothing used to auto-scale, now I need to do it manually as of P2012-2014 - this may or may not have been fixed in 11.2, I do not use it as my workstation will not run it, but was still true in the pre 11.1 betas when I left the beta program.
I have been a big fan of body scaling for years, and by now I have already figured what works and what doesn't in Poser. You are right - scaling doesn't work in Poser if you parent the clothing to Dawn. I think it has been like this since Poser 9. It does seem to work with V4 (Legacy rigging) and Star (weight mapped), so this issue may be something particular to the original Dawn. I have discussed this with Paul, with hopes this will not happen with Dawn 2. This Dawn issue does not happen in DS, though, so it appears to be Poser-only.

However, Scaling does have issues in Poser even without parenting clothing to the figure. This may be in part because SMS has introduced animatable origins in Poser 9, but that didn't include the end-points. This was only resolved in Poser 10, so all content created before will have issues with the "Match end-points" checkbox. Clothing may or may not fit the figure when scaled with this option enabled.

Another issue with scaling in Poser has to do with conforming clothes created before Poser 11. That's because content creators were not able to copy the smoothing scale zones from figure to the clothing in P9 and P10, so scaling the figure would have conforming discontinuity issues, especially around the hip group. One way to resolve this would be to copy only the smoothing scale zones to older clothing, but unfortunately, SMS has declined to provide that functionality in Poser. I have tried a few different ways, but nothing has worked. The only available option would be to copy ALL existing zones, which results into resetting all the work we put into joint adjustments back to default. In other words, content creators would have to redo all the clothing rigging from scratch, which is rather discouraging in this day and age.

So yes, Dawn has a particular issue with body scaling if we parent clothing to the body, but all these other scaling issues are tied to Poser itself. One way to get around the Dawn body scaling with parented clothes in Poser is to use a grouping object instead. I like to parent clothes to the figure as means to reduce the clutter in the Hierarchy Editor (scene panel in DS), so using a grouping object has the same effect in the end, and it doesn't affect scaling. :)

PS: I haven't found a case where body scaling would break joints with Dawn so far, and I have shown LOTS of body scaling in my renders since 2013.
 
Last edited:

tparo

Engaged
QAV-BEE
...

PS: I haven't found a case where body scaling would break joints with Dawn so far, and I have shown LOTS of body scaling in my renders since 2013.
Do you not feel though that having a dial you could spin would be easier and quicker?
And things like elbows and wrists ankle doesn't really work with scaling as it can effect and do weird things to the rest of the arm/leg whatever, I also don't find it easy to scale the proportions of the whole figure to get the sort of effect you get with Star 2.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Do you not feel though that having a dial you could spin would be easier and quicker?
And things like elbows and wrists ankle doesn't really work with scaling as it can effect and do weird things to the rest of the arm/leg whatever, I also don't find it easy to scale the proportions of the whole figure to get the sort of effect you get with Star 2.
Have you tried "Shape of Dawn" by Lyrra?
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I've done some rather extreme scaling with Dawn, especially with my Brielo and her family, and I've never had problems with the mesh. I've primarily used dynamic clothing with them, which of course, is parented to Dawn.

Dawn Body Shapes already includes lengthen morphs. Arms Length, Hands Length, Fingers Length, Torso Length, Legs Length, Feet Length, Toes Length, and Neck Length. In addition, there are control dials to scale each foot, each hand, and the Head.

While I'm not adverse to additional morphs to lengthen/shorten individual body parts (such as thigh, shin, forearm, upper arm instead of a Legs and Arm Length), I'm not sure how adjusting a bunch of dials to lengthen each body part is all that much different than using the scaling dials on those body parts. It's easy enough to add in scaling to Legs/Arms Lengthen to lengthen/shorten the shins and lengthen/shorten the thighs if one wanted arms and legs that are not proportionately longer or shorter.

Rather than adding in "toon" features to Dawn 2.0, which may not be of any interest to most people, maybe we could get a Toon morph pack for Dawn, Dusk, and Luna.

Granted, I work in Poser, and it's been ages since I used DS, so it may be easier to adjust the scaling of individual body parts in Poser than it is in DS. I remember it was harder to do some things in DS than it was to do those same things in Poser, just like it was easier to do other things in DS than it was to do those things in Poser.

Brielo for Posting.jpg
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
I appreciate the feedback on morphs of limbs and torso verses scaling. It's been helpful.
 

KageRyu

Lost Mad Soul
Contributing Artist
I agree with Willowisp - scaling done in Poser figures is not best done with morphs, which creates a lot of work for clothing creators making those morphs work in clothing. Instead, Poser's native scaling works much better AND doesn't require a vendor to completely remake a scaled piece of clothing.

View attachment 54149
If your scaling the whole figure (as shown in your render) - yes, if scaling just body parts to different levels - no it still breaks joints.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
If your scaling the whole figure (as shown in your render) - yes, if scaling just body parts to different levels - no it still breaks joints.
Did you see what Satira posted with her unique Dawn render there? She hasn't had problems with scaling in Poser.
 
Top