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Dawn 2.0 Underway

CG Cubed

Technical Director
Staff member
HW3D Exclusive Artist
I thought I would chime in about the type of rigging...We were considering the pros and cons of the individual axis weight maps (TriAx) versus the general weight maps (industry standard). Individual axis weight maps give us better control with fewer bones, while the general weight maps give us ease of porting to other programs, like modo, maya, 3D Studio Max...Of course one of our priorities here at HiveWire 3D, is to offer our Dawn 2.0 in both Poser and DS. The most efficient way to do this while maintaining similar user experience, and limit the amount of work for creators that support both versions, is to go with the individual axis (TriAx) method of rigging. Currently it is the weight map system supported by both programs.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
The most efficient way to do this while maintaining similar user experience, and limit the amount of work for creators that support both versions, is to go with the individual axis (TriAx) method of rigging. Currently it is the weight map system supported by both programs.
I agree. The decision for the Genesis platform to move to general weights with dual quats was because DAZ has started a new division (Morph 3D) dedicated to creating contents for game engines, so their Genesis 3 and up had to be sacrificed to fit that profile. I have posted many observations of the pros and cons of using game engine standards in DS, and my general opinion is that this is not in the best interest of this market because things have to be sacrificed to comply with real-time game engine requirements. That is not what this market is about. People who want real-time contents would be better suited with Reallusion iClone and CC3, because that's what that market is dedicated to. Among the compromises comes poly reduction and topology simplifications that will require subdivision to render or sculpt morphs for. It also becomes harder to rig for a figure that has just a single weight map per joint, as opposed to 3 with TriAx, not counting the extra weights dedicated to bulging, smooth scaling and (in Poser) smooth translations. I think that was too big a compromise for DS users, even if they don't notice, because the cons were compensated with subdivisions, HD morphs and loads of corrective JCMs that blow up on content creators. In short, these figures became more suited for real-time game engines, and less suited for what DS was meant for.

If we want Dawn 2.0 to be the best it can be in Poser/DS, it should be rigged using what's best for us, not the real-time game engine market, which has nothing to do with us and what we do. Therefore Paul is correct to assume the best for us is TriAx. Even in the rare case where some of us may want to use the HW figures in real-time applications, Reallusion CC3 does the job independently of what the figure was rigged with, it's poly count, or even what topology it may have. And what's best, Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna and HW Gorilla are already supported natively in CC3, so they already have all the advantages of real-time environments without having to sacrifice the Poser/DS versions. This way HW figures have the best of both worlds with no compromises in either markets.

I thought that Poser didn't support Triax?
TriAx is the equivalent of Poser weight maps in basically all aspects. The only difference is that they are mutually incompatible due to the way they were implemented. But when it comes to how they work internally, they are basically the same thing, so it's Ok to refer to TriAx as the same rigging used in Poser.

PS: this is why V4 works natively in both Poser and DS: her weight maps are dynamically generated, and the feature set in Poser and DS are identical when it comes to joint weight maps. This is also how it is possible to convert figures from Poser to DS, and from DS to Poser. Even though the weight maps are incompatible, their feature sets are identical.
 
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Pendraia

Seasoned
Contributing Artist
Thanks for the answer Paul...I tend to prefer triax simply because I'm more familiar with it.
 
I agree. The decision for the Genesis platform to move to general weights with dual quats was because DAZ has started a new division (Morph 3D) dedicated to creating contents for game engines, so their Genesis 3 and up had to be sacrificed to fit that profile. I have posted many observations of the pros and cons of using game engine standards in DS, and my general opinion is that this is not in the best interest of this market because things have to be sacrificed to comply with real-time game engine requirements.
:roflmao: That's not it.

It was for creating a figure with standards that can be used across different platforms. That's why there's a DAZ-to-Maya plugin that could exist because Maya can't use triax weightmapping. Also the facial rigging wouldn't exist if triax rigging was used because the resource overhead. And that comes from the developers of genesis because I had asked. It's always good to ask before you say things that are false.

It really doesn't matter if the figure is in triax or general weight mapping to be honest. Both are supported by DS and neither are supported natively in Poser. If you want Dawn supported in more programs (FBX export), you would obviously go with dual quaternion; if you want just DS, then triax will work. General weight mapping is going to be lighter in resources, though you'll need more correctives. But with automorph generation, that's not too much of a problem. And although it's a learning curve for the transition from triax, it's obviously hasn't been an impediment to the flood of content in the stores.
 
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Pendraia

Seasoned
Contributing Artist
Interesting insights Ken and Male-M3dia, interesting to know that facial rigging relies on dual quaternion rigging...
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
:roflmao: That's not it.

It was for creating a figure with standards that can be used across different platforms. That's why there's a DAZ-to-Maya plugin that could exist because Maya can't use triax weightmapping. Also the facial rigging wouldn't exist if triax rigging was used because the resource overhead. And that comes from the developers of genesis because I had asked. It's always good to ask before you say things that are false.
Thanks for your added information. But, please be careful with the way you present your responses in this forum and thread. Though your experience and understanding may be correct, the manner in which you stated your response to Ken can certainly bring about defensive comments from your aggressive phrasing and accusatory tone.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I agree with Miss B, very good clean topology on the fingernails! :D

I don't know if it's just my impression, but the transition from fingers to hand seems a bit bumpy?

FingerToPalms.jpg
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
You know, I hadn't even noticed that, and it's not on the top of the hand, and it very well may be just underneath that one finger.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Maybe it's just from that perspective? It's hard to tell from a fixed render. The original hand shape had much thicker fingers, so maybe the transition just needs a bit of smoothing?
 

Desertsilver

Engaged
I agree with Miss B, very good clean topology on the fingernails! :D

I don't know if it's just my impression, but the transition from fingers to hand seems a bit bumpy?

View attachment 45982
My hand looks just like that in that area. This thread helps me appreciate the work that goes into making a base-a bunch of tricky choices between having character or being generic- or becoming too generic...following your artistic style or creating something others can build their style on top of.
 

DanaTA

Noteworthy
I have one observation. Between the thumb and the finger, there is normally some...ummm…"webbing"? See image. Am I the only one that has this skin? I kind of doubt it.

Never noticed it, could it just be a morph that I haven't noticed? That skin stretches tight when the thumb is moved all the way from the hand, and "sags" a little when the thumb is close to the fingers.

Dana
 

Attachments

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
Also the facial rigging wouldn't exist if triax rigging was used because the resource overhead.
Hmmm, so if Paul DOES keep with the TriAx rigging set up then facial rigging would still remain the same, meaning that poor Dusk will still suffer with having to jump through hoops to get beards and eyebrows (fiber mesh) to follow expression morphs? Please consider a different approach Paul! Thanks!
 

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
I have one observation. Between the thumb and the finger, there is normally some...ummm…"webbing"? See image. Am I the only one that has this skin? I kind of doubt it.

Never noticed it, could it just be a morph that I haven't noticed? That skin stretches tight when the thumb is moved all the way from the hand, and "sags" a little when the thumb is close to the fingers.

Dana
Nope, I have that little bit of extra skin in the between forefinger and thumb as well Dana! Not sure how that would behave though if Chris were to put that in!
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Nope, I have that little bit of extra skin in the between forefinger and thumb as well Dana! Not sure how that would behave though if Chris were to put that in!
I have it as well Rich, and I also wonder how it would behave, as Dawn's flesh isn't going to be dynamic.
 
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