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Dawn 2.0 Underway

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
Exactly. Perhaps there is a way to make that happen with some normal mapping or something like that
 

DanaTA

Noteworthy
I was thinking some kind of morph controlled by the movement of the thumb joint. But I don't know much about that kind of thing, so maybe I'm thinking of magic. :rolleyes:

Dana
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Hmmm, so if Paul DOES keep with the TriAx rigging set up then facial rigging would still remain the same, meaning that poor Dusk will still suffer with having to jump through hoops to get beards and eyebrows (fiber mesh) to follow expression morphs? Please consider a different approach Paul! Thanks!
LaFemme has full facial bone rigging, and she uses Poser weight maps, which is the same as TriAx in DS. Therefore the claims that general weights are required for that to work make no sense, because you can get LF and see for yourself right now. It just works. If there is a performance improvement with general weights, that is only relevant in real-time environments like game engines, which is unrelated to what we do in Poser and DS, and it comes with compromises - it doesn't come for free. As for Dual Quaternions, that is just another way to calculate joint rotations while avoiding gimbal locks. Besides that, it's functionality is absolutely identical to regular TriAx rotations. It's sole purpose is to avoid gimbal locks in joint rotations, and nothing else.

Therefore whether or not Paul decides to give Dawn 2.0 a bones facial rig, that has absolutely no relation with what kind of rigging the figure will use. Don't take my word for it - play a bit with LF's facial rig in Poser and see for yourself. That's TriAx and it works just fine. If you want to adopt general weights, it will still work, but you will have to deal with the compromises. They are not compromises in game engines, but they are in Poser/DS because TriAx is better suited for the way we use figures. There is a reason why TriAx received awards for technological achievement, and general weights did not. Like Male-M3dia has said, TriAx had to be sacrificed because DAZ needed Genesis to be used in other programs that have nothing to do with us, Poser and DS users.

Conversely, if real-time models are what you want, and you don't want to use Poser/DS, you can take full advantage of Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna and HW Gorilla in Reallusion CC3 and iClone, where these figures exist natively and are optimized to work in real-time. And what's most, this didn't require any kind of compromise on the native Poser/DS figures. They still benefit from native TriAx rigging in their native platforms, which was specifically meant for use in Poser and DS. This is a perfect example where we don't need to compromise on one thing to achieve another. It proves that we can have the BEST of both worlds with HW figures with no compromises. Kudos for Chris and Lisa for that amazing achievement! Let's not take that for granted.
 
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Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I was thinking some kind of morph controlled by the movement of the thumb joint. But I don't know much about that kind of thing, so maybe I'm thinking of magic. :rolleyes:
Dana
I have suggested adding an extra metacarpal ghost bone at the base of the thumb1 bone, as means to allow better bending on the hand palms against the base of the thumb. The reason a ghost bone would be beneficial is because they don't require a body group at an already crowded areas such as the hands. Whether or not an extra webbing geometry is added, this would allow for better hands posing on that area in specific.
 

esha

Member
Contributing Artist
For content creators TriAx means that for each and every bone you need to adjust 3 maps, and in many cases 2 additional bulge maps, too. With general weight maps you have only one map to worry about.
TriAx does have its advantages, for example (at least in DS) it allows you to overdrive the maps, so you can have ghost bones for skirts, sashes etc. without messing up the weights in the other bones. With Dual Quaternion you can't do that. But TriAx definitely slows down the rigging process for conforming items.
 
For content creators TriAx means that for each and every bone you need to adjust 3 maps, and in many cases 2 additional bulge maps, too. With general weight maps you have only one map to worry about.
TriAx does have its advantages, for example (at least in DS) it allows you to overdrive the maps, so you can have ghost bones for skirts, sashes etc. without messing up the weights in the other bones. With Dual Quaternion you can't do that. But TriAx definitely slows down the rigging process for conforming items.
Reducing the amount of maps to adjust was main reason there is facial rigging in the genesis character, and also allows the figure to have industry standards so the figure could used in the other programs without those programs adopting a different weighting system. But note, dual quaterion has always been in DS4 since release, it was just noted as "General weighting". Also it makes for a lighter figure in the program, especially considering weight maps work better on lower poly meshes (and are easier to rig) and Iray rendering and the memory use on cards to quickly render a scene... which saying the design choices for using genesis for games is incorrect. Even at their current poly count, they're still way too heavy for games.
 

Faery_Light

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
I have one observation. Between the thumb and the finger, there is normally some...ummm…"webbing"? See image. Am I the only one that has this skin? I kind of doubt it.

Never noticed it, could it just be a morph that I haven't noticed? That skin stretches tight when the thumb is moved all the way from the hand, and "sags" a little when the thumb is close to the fingers.

Dana
My hands have the webbing between the thumb and index finger.
Some have it less, my mother's sister-in-law had webbing between all her fingers and toes.
 

Mythocentric

Extraordinary
Just in case anyone else, like myself, is losing track of what this thread is about it is, in fact about Dawn 2, the upcoming development of Hivewire's existing figure. The OP is Chris, Dawn's creator! Hence the title...' Dawn 2.0 Underway'. Chris, as you may recall, probably has more experience in his chosen field than most of us can wave a stick at. Add Paul into the mix with his undoubted experience and rigging expertise and we have a pretty unbeatable team. So why, I have to wonder are we being treated to the sad sight of a pair of bantam cocks, strutting around the farmyard. chests like their over-inflated ego's puffed out, competing to see who can piss furtherest! All rather pointless really and to be perfectly honest, it makes for a rather pathetic scenario, because at the end of the day no one else cares! So might I suggest that the aforementioned bantam cocks retire to their respective corners and think very carefully about the following question? Given a choice, would you prefer to see Chris' work on Dawn 2.0 or watch a pair of geeks indulge in a thread highjack for the sake of their own little ego's? Of course, as Chris himself has stated, suggestions are welcome. After all, no one can think of everything. Showing off, for no other reason than you can't admit you might be wrong is, however, a whole other ballgame! Peace!

Edit: eclarke1894 got there before me, so my thanks to him. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in the hope that this thread can now resume it's original course!
 

esha

Member
Contributing Artist
I've just counted the products in my store. I've created about 29 products for TriAx weightmapping and 31 (including my current, unreleased WIP) with general weights. Based on this experience I can say that, for me, products with general weights, even if they involve a somewhat higher number of JCMs, are easier to handle and quicker to make.
I also do not think that one weight mapping system or the other, or the fact whether it needs a reasonable number of JCMs or not, defines the quality of a figure. Ultimately the question is, how good does it look, how well does it bend? The customer doesn't care what is going on inside the figure or how certain effects are achieved. Content creators, however, do have to work with and around the setup.

Mind you, I'm not advising against using TriAx. If that's the only way to make the figure work in both Poser and DS, so be it. Just be aware that these decisions will also affect the creation of add-on content, which is one of the key factors of a figure's success.
Sometimes figure creators, being all caught-up in their work of making a figure awesome, tend to overlook the needs of add-on creators, so I guess it's not a bad idea to voice our concerns now, before the rigging process starts.
In the end Chris and Paul will know best what road to take, after weighing all the pros and cons.
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Everyone, remember to report any posts you feel are not appropriate. There should be a Report link at the bottom of each post.

Thanks for your added information. But, please be careful with the way you present your responses in this forum and thread. Though your experience and understanding may be correct, the manner in which you stated your response to Ken can certainly bring about defensive comments from your aggressive phrasing and accusatory tone.
Yes, please don't Ken.
Male-M3dia and Ken1171, please take this discussion outside the HiveWire forums.

I've asked for your posts this week to be reviewed and suggested they be removed or moved out of Dawn 2.0 Underway.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
Just in case anyone else, like myself, is losing track of what this thread is about it is, in fact about Dawn 2, the upcoming development of Hivewire's existing figure. The OP is Chris, Dawn's creator! Hence the title...' Dawn 2.0 Underway'. Chris, as you may recall, probably has more experience in his chosen field than most of us can wave a stick at. Add Paul into the mix with his undoubted experience and rigging expertise and we have a pretty unbeatable team. So why, I have to wonder are we being treated to the sad sight of a pair of bantam cocks, strutting around the farmyard. chests like their over-inflated ego's puffed out, competing to see who can piss furtherest! All rather pointless really and to be perfectly honest, it makes for a rather pathetic scenario, because at the end of the day no one else cares! So might I suggest that the aforementioned bantam cocks retire to their respective corners and think very carefully about the following question? Given a choice, would you prefer to see Chris' work on Dawn 2.0 or watch a pair of geeks indulge in a thread highjack for the sake of their own little ego's? Of course, as Chris himself has stated, suggestions are welcome. After all, no one can think of everything. Showing off, for no other reason than you can't admit you might be wrong is, however, a whole other ballgame! Peace!

Edit: eclarke1894 got there before me, so my thanks to him. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in the hope that this thread can now resume it's original course!
Out of respect for Chris, I have removed several posts from this thread. This has gone beyond collaborative suggestion and into an escalating argument about who is right. Enough!

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each differently. ~Robert Evans.
I thought I would chime in about the type of rigging...We were considering the pros and cons of the individual axis weight maps (TriAx) versus the general weight maps (industry standard). Individual axis weight maps give us better control with fewer bones, while the general weight maps give us ease of porting to other programs, like modo, maya, 3D Studio Max...Of course one of our priorities here at HiveWire 3D, is to offer our Dawn 2.0 in both Poser and DS. The most efficient way to do this while maintaining similar user experience, and limit the amount of work for creators that support both versions, is to go with the individual axis (TriAx) method of rigging. Currently it is the weight map system supported by both programs.
We all want Dawn 2.0 to be the best she can be for both Poser and Daz Studio as well as for those who wish to create add-on content for her. We welcome people who create content to share their experiences and preferences so we can learn from each other, however, to do so respectfully.

Back to my weekend.
 

eclark1894

Distinguished
Out of respect for Chris, I have removed several posts from this thread. This has gone beyond collaborative suggestion and into an escalating argument about who is right. Enough!





We all want Dawn 2.0 to be the best she can be for both Poser and Daz Studio as well as for those who wish to create add-on content for her. We welcome people who create content to share their experiences and preferences so we can learn from each other, however, to do so respectfully.

Back to my weekend.
Must be nice to take long weekends. But I have a question. One of the things I used to notice was that V4 was turned into a mermaid. Was that a morph or a rig? While I have done this for Roxie or Miki 4 (I forget) does Dawn have a mertail morph or addon? If I could have figured out how to rig that stupid scuba tank she'd have that too... ah well.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
Must be nice to take long weekends.
I certainly is when I can get them!

But I have a question. One of the things I used to notice was that V4 was turned into a mermaid. Was that a morph or a rig? While I have done this for Roxie or Miki 4 (I forget) does Dawn have a mertail morph or addon? If I could have figured out how to rig that stupid scuba tank she'd have that too... ah well.
There was an add-on conforming tail as far as I recall. Someone made a mermaid tail for Dawn when she first came out. It needed a bit more work and never made it out. I will contact them and see if there is interest in developing one for Dawn 2.0.
 

eclark1894

Distinguished
I certainly is when I can get them!



There was an add-on conforming tail as far as I recall. Someone made a mermaid tail for Dawn when she first came out. It needed a bit more work and never made it out. I will contact them and see if there is interest in developing one for Dawn 2.0.
Thanks, since it was all the talk about webbed fingers that got me thinking, I did a bit more research. And since you've now told me that it was an add-on, not a morph, there's probably another way to go.

 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
Just in case anyone else, like myself, is losing track of what this thread is about it is, in fact about Dawn 2, the upcoming development of Hivewire's existing figure. The OP is Chris, Dawn's creator! Hence the title...' Dawn 2.0 Underway'. Chris, as you may recall, probably has more experience in his chosen field than most of us can wave a stick at. Add Paul into the mix with his undoubted experience and rigging expertise and we have a pretty unbeatable team. So why, I have to wonder are we being treated to the sad sight of a pair of bantam cocks, strutting around the farmyard. chests like their over-inflated ego's puffed out, competing to see who can piss furtherest! All rather pointless really and to be perfectly honest, it makes for a rather pathetic scenario, because at the end of the day no one else cares! So might I suggest that the aforementioned bantam cocks retire to their respective corners and think very carefully about the following question? Given a choice, would you prefer to see Chris' work on Dawn 2.0 or watch a pair of geeks indulge in a thread highjack for the sake of their own little ego's? Of course, as Chris himself has stated, suggestions are welcome. After all, no one can think of everything. Showing off, for no other reason than you can't admit you might be wrong is, however, a whole other ballgame! Peace!

Edit: eclarke1894 got there before me, so my thanks to him. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in the hope that this thread can now resume it's original course!
I've been out for a brief vacation with my family, so I've missed the last bit of banter back and forth. Thanks to Lisa for removing a few posts and saving me from having to be frustrated by all that. I also very much appreciate your comment to help bring attention back to our lady.

I hope to make more modeling progress again in a few days from now when I'm back in pocket. Until then, I'm off to the beach.
 

Vaskania

I break polygons.
For daz studio you could probably get away with doing this with a geograft. Not sure about Poser. I haven't used it since the game dev version.

Thanks, since it was all the talk about webbed fingers that got me thinking, I did a bit more research. And since you've now told me that it was an add-on, not a morph, there's probably another way to go.

 

eclark1894

Distinguished
For daz studio you could probably get away with doing this with a geograft. Not sure about Poser. I haven't used it since the game dev version.
I was thinking of a different route... at least for Poser. Regardless, I'd have to wait until Chris's Dawn 2.0 was finished.
 
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