They will get even better here within the next few days.
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Dawn 2.0 Underway
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
They will get even better here within the next few days.
Hornet3d
Wise
I agree, no matter how beautiful the shape there will not be much of a wow factor without a good texture. With both my more mature characters, using V4 and Dawn SE as a base, most of the maturity comes from the texture, not that I made them, that was down to someone who knew what they were doing. I blended a few to get just what I wanted but I was amazed at the impact a change of texture had.
Oh how I agree with you. I picked up a texture only set for Dawn by Sveva over at Renderosity quite some time ago, and just applying the skin, makeup and eye textures makes such a huuuuuge difference in how Dawn looks, without doing any morphing to change her features.
Yay! I think this may be the first time I will ever have a figure with double-sided fingernails! ^___^
Still on Dawn's hand, I have a question. The image below shows the "bump" I find unnatural when I pose Dawn's hand. I usually smooth it out with the Morphing Tool, because when I look at my own hand, the transition from palm to finger is pretty smooth. This is not particular to Dawn - many other figures have this. I was wondering if it happens because of topology or rigging? Can this be helped in Dawn 2.0?
That's something I have emphasized from the very beginning, at a time when some claimed they wouldn't use Dawn because they didn't like her default texture. I have posted a few renders of Dawn with V4 converted textures (using Texture Transformer), and people didn't even recognize it was Dawn. Besides, have any one EVER rendered V4 with her purple bikini default texture? I mean, EVER? Like you said, we don't even have to apply a morph to see the difference.
~CRINGE~
I did.
Though never for a REAL image.
Though never for a REAL image.
Perhaps the original Dawn texture may have been an issue because she didn't have many other textures to choose from at the beginning. I remember doing many renders with the original texture, and I wasn't very happy about it, especially because the upper and lower body had different tones. I wasn't very fond of the original hair either, but all that was resolved on Dawn SE. Just a pity it took 2 years for that to happen, which gave people plenty of time to be unhappy about it at a time when Dawn needed to be her best.
That's how important secondary items like the default texture and hair are. Dawn SE was a great improvement, but it has missed the "first impression" window of opportunity. In a way, it was good that those things happened, because Dawn 2.0 will benefit from the experience. This means her default texture will have to be on the same level as the current, and the same goes for her new default hair. There is only 1 chance to cause a good first impression.
However, Dawn 2.0 is being developed with community participation (thanks to HW generosity), so there should be no surprises here. It has been 6 years now, so we already know by heart all of Dawn's ups and downs, making it easier to know what needs improvement. V4 didn't become popular overnight - she had 3 older sisters before her to improve upon. The major difference here is that HW is creating Dawn 2.0 with community participation, so maybe we can get this new figure to evolve MUCH faster and better right on her 2nd generation. I believe this can happen. I have a lot of faith in these guys.
That's how important secondary items like the default texture and hair are. Dawn SE was a great improvement, but it has missed the "first impression" window of opportunity. In a way, it was good that those things happened, because Dawn 2.0 will benefit from the experience. This means her default texture will have to be on the same level as the current, and the same goes for her new default hair. There is only 1 chance to cause a good first impression.
However, Dawn 2.0 is being developed with community participation (thanks to HW generosity), so there should be no surprises here. It has been 6 years now, so we already know by heart all of Dawn's ups and downs, making it easier to know what needs improvement. V4 didn't become popular overnight - she had 3 older sisters before her to improve upon. The major difference here is that HW is creating Dawn 2.0 with community participation, so maybe we can get this new figure to evolve MUCH faster and better right on her 2nd generation. I believe this can happen. I have a lot of faith in these guys.
Looks like that tissue area on the palm can be lessened. When the finger is extended back like your image the palm tissue stretches and thins out as a result. So perhaps a JCM could be utilized here for optimum effect. We'll see.
I am hoping no JCMs will be needed on the hands, but my suggestion to add a ghost metacarpal bone to the thumbs still stands. One could think that "thunb1" could be used for that, but in most figures that doesn't have the desired effect. I only noticed this after I saw how LaFemme has the extra metacarpal ghost bone that works like a "thumb0" bone - that was one of these "a-ha" moments. I will leave this for later, when we get to Paul's turn. I just asked in case this could have anything to do with topology or the default hand shape.
Hornet3d
Wise
I did not use the original Dawn very much, perhaps all the hype, from every quarter, for the new figure gave me a level of expectation that could not be met. As my use was so limited I never really got to use or look at the default texture very much but as my needs were for a figure slightly more mature than the norm it it would not have mattered much to me anyway.
I love the way Hivewire are sharing everything here and are open to suggestions but we should keep in mind that not everyone will get what they want. From my point of view all I want is a figure that is good enough to be adopted by loads of artists which will then help to ensure that all that I want that is not already there will be provided by third parties. That has certainly been my experience with Dawn SE, around the time of her launch was when some really stunning textures came available and since then products like 'narrow shoulders' and 'perfect pelvis' have improved the figure, not to mention all the other great morph sets that are available. I doubt that this will be any different with the new figure except the bar will have been moved higher and the tweaks needed will be different.
@Hornet3d I am betting Dawn 2.0 won't need correction morphs because she will be rigged based on previous experience learned from DawnSE. I am assuming she already has narrower shoulders, though it's hard to tell from a T-pose. I remember posting a black silhouette front view comparison chart between Dawn and other figures, where Dawn had the broadest shoulders, and the thickest arms from the bunch. From a drawing book I use for reference, the author claims broad shoulders are a male feature that makes the difference when compared to a female silhouette.
This is the kind of subliminal message our brain looks for to identify gender differences. The human eye is always first driven to the head (eyes), and then the shoulders follow just below. In my personal character style, it's more about proportions than shapes. Our eyes perceive proportions globally, and then shapes locally. Therefore I believe one precedes the other. This is why "Narrow Shoulders" makes such an impact when the morph itself does so little. It affects proportions, which we perceive globally - it affects the whole. That's why I have used black silhouettes in my comparison chart - because I only wanted to see the proportions, ignoring the shapes completely.
Having that said, I believe Dawn 2.0 with narrower shoulders and thinner arms will be perceived as definitely more "female" than her older sister. There is also the artistic side, where aesthetics are more important than realism. 3D models allow for way more artistic freedom than real world photography, because we are free to reshape the world to our whim - whatever looks more attractive to the human eye. This is where I draw my line between realism and aesthetics. If it doesn't look good, I don't care how realistic it may be. In the real world, people buy art because of aesthetics. Even if the meaning of beauty is subjective, that's what artists aim to create.
Perhaps V4 is a good case study, where she has pleasant shape and proportions that many consider unrealistic. Nobody disputes how successful she still is nowadays, in spite of how poorly she has always posed. Conversely, some of her older sisters were highly criticized for having simian proportions. On this topic, I believe Dawn already has pleasant proportions, where those just need to be refined like Chris has been doing here. It's going the right direction.
This is the kind of subliminal message our brain looks for to identify gender differences. The human eye is always first driven to the head (eyes), and then the shoulders follow just below. In my personal character style, it's more about proportions than shapes. Our eyes perceive proportions globally, and then shapes locally. Therefore I believe one precedes the other. This is why "Narrow Shoulders" makes such an impact when the morph itself does so little. It affects proportions, which we perceive globally - it affects the whole. That's why I have used black silhouettes in my comparison chart - because I only wanted to see the proportions, ignoring the shapes completely.
Having that said, I believe Dawn 2.0 with narrower shoulders and thinner arms will be perceived as definitely more "female" than her older sister. There is also the artistic side, where aesthetics are more important than realism. 3D models allow for way more artistic freedom than real world photography, because we are free to reshape the world to our whim - whatever looks more attractive to the human eye. This is where I draw my line between realism and aesthetics. If it doesn't look good, I don't care how realistic it may be. In the real world, people buy art because of aesthetics. Even if the meaning of beauty is subjective, that's what artists aim to create.
Perhaps V4 is a good case study, where she has pleasant shape and proportions that many consider unrealistic. Nobody disputes how successful she still is nowadays, in spite of how poorly she has always posed. Conversely, some of her older sisters were highly criticized for having simian proportions. On this topic, I believe Dawn already has pleasant proportions, where those just need to be refined like Chris has been doing here. It's going the right direction.
Still on body proportions, here is a new black silhouette chart. We can see straight away that all 3 figures are roughly the same height, and have more or less the same proportions. As a matter of fact, Dawn and V4 have very similar proportions, except that Dawn seems overall wider, having the thickest and longest arms, and the largest hands from the bunch. Dawn also has the strongest waist-to-shoulders ratio, which is what some have considered "manly". I think this derives from the thicker arms and the wider upper torso combined. I personally believe Dawn 2.0 should have a narrower upper torso than this. Note that in this chart, I don't care for shapes - only proportions.
Compared to Dawn, V4 has a shorter hip, and G2F has slightly longer legs, much higher waist line, and shorter torso. In this category, Dawn and V4 are almost the same, while G2F is a bit stylized. Not sure if it's my impression, but Dawn's head seems the widest.
Besides Dawn's waist-to-shoulders steeper ratio, one of the reasons why the upper body looks wider is because of the way her shoulders were rigged. This is something I have learned when creating "Narrow Shoulders" for Dawn. In most other figures, good part of the upper arms get inside the torso when the arms are bent down. This doesn't happen with Dawn, making her upper torso look much wider when the arms are down because they don't intersect with the torso. It may seems like the upper arms shouldn't intersect with the torso, but in practice, that seems to make the proportions look better. That's probably why the upper arms intersect with the torso in most other figures. In theory, the way Dawn's shoulders bend should be better (no torso intersection), but in the end it affects the proportions. Something to think about.
This is why I wanted to see Dawn 2.0 with the arms down, to see how the new upper torso and thinner arms add up together to affect the proportions. This will depend on how the shoulders will be rigged - with or without torso intersection.
From this analysis we can see that most of Dawn's "manly" aspects are located on the thick arms, large hands, thick neck, and the wide upper torso. Chris has already reworked most of that on Dawn 2.0, though I am not sure about the upper torso - it's hard to tell from a T-pose. I don't recall if Chris has narrowed it, or just the arms. Also not sure if the arms will be thinned any further as well, or if the arms length were changed.
I believe smaller, more feminine hands are coming up next! ^___^
Compared to Dawn, V4 has a shorter hip, and G2F has slightly longer legs, much higher waist line, and shorter torso. In this category, Dawn and V4 are almost the same, while G2F is a bit stylized. Not sure if it's my impression, but Dawn's head seems the widest.
Besides Dawn's waist-to-shoulders steeper ratio, one of the reasons why the upper body looks wider is because of the way her shoulders were rigged. This is something I have learned when creating "Narrow Shoulders" for Dawn. In most other figures, good part of the upper arms get inside the torso when the arms are bent down. This doesn't happen with Dawn, making her upper torso look much wider when the arms are down because they don't intersect with the torso. It may seems like the upper arms shouldn't intersect with the torso, but in practice, that seems to make the proportions look better. That's probably why the upper arms intersect with the torso in most other figures. In theory, the way Dawn's shoulders bend should be better (no torso intersection), but in the end it affects the proportions. Something to think about.
This is why I wanted to see Dawn 2.0 with the arms down, to see how the new upper torso and thinner arms add up together to affect the proportions. This will depend on how the shoulders will be rigged - with or without torso intersection.
From this analysis we can see that most of Dawn's "manly" aspects are located on the thick arms, large hands, thick neck, and the wide upper torso. Chris has already reworked most of that on Dawn 2.0, though I am not sure about the upper torso - it's hard to tell from a T-pose. I don't recall if Chris has narrowed it, or just the arms. Also not sure if the arms will be thinned any further as well, or if the arms length were changed.
I believe smaller, more feminine hands are coming up next! ^___^
Hornet3d
Wise
@Hornet3d I am betting Dawn 2.0 won't need correction morphs because she will be rigged based on previous experience learned from DawnSE. I am assuming she already has narrower shoulders, though it's hard to tell from a T-pose. I remember posting a black silhouette front view comparison chart between Dawn and other figures, where Dawn had the broadest shoulders, and the thickest arms from the bunch. From a drawing book I use for reference, the author claims broad shoulders are a male feature that makes the difference when compared to a female silhouette.
This is the kind of subliminal message our brain looks for to identify gender differences. The human eye is always first driven to the head (eyes), and then the shoulders follow just below. In my personal character style, it's more about proportions than shapes. Our eyes perceive proportions globally, and then shapes locally. Therefore I believe one precedes the other. This is why "Narrow Shoulders" makes such an impact when the morph itself does so little. It affects proportions, which we perceive globally - it affects the whole. That's why I have used black silhouettes in my comparison chart - because I only wanted to see the proportions, ignoring the shapes completely.
Having that said, I believe Dawn 2.0 with narrower shoulders and thinner arms will be perceived as definitely more "female" than her older sister. There is also the artistic side, where aesthetics are more important than realism. 3D models allow for way more artistic freedom than real world photography, because we are free to reshape the world to our whim - whatever looks more attractive to the human eye. This is where I draw my line between realism and aesthetics. If it doesn't look good, I don't care how realistic it may be. In the real world, people buy art because of aesthetics. Even if the meaning of beauty is subjective, that's what artists aim to create.
Perhaps V4 is a good case study, where she has pleasant shape and proportions that many consider unrealistic. Nobody disputes how successful she still is nowadays, in spite of how poorly she has always posed. Conversely, some of her older sisters were highly criticized for having simian proportions. On this topic, I believe Dawn already has pleasant proportions, where those just need to be refined like Chris has been doing here. It's going the right direction.
It is quite clear that many people have learnt the strong point of the present Dawn and Dawn SE, along with the problems. Clearly Chris can see the shortcomings as well as he has decided to refine the figure and also take note of the experience of other people who have used the figure. I don't doubt therefore that you are correct in that Dawn 2 will not need the correction morphs but as everyone's conception of what is a perfect figure, or even attractive for that matter, I am sure there will be a number of 'change' morphs appear.
The reason for my comment was sort of personal in that there was a great deal of hype around the release of Dawn and for some very good reasons. The concept of a figure that would work in both DS and Poser came at a time when the two camps were, at best, drifting apart and, at worse, had artists of both camps at each other's throat. For many the concept of bringing the divide was a breath of fresh air for many who thought that it was the art that was important not the software used. From a very personal point of view I felt that the end result of the massive amount of hype was that a level of expectation was raised that could not possible be met by any figure. My comments were therefore, I guess, a word of caution in that not everyone will get what they want from the new figure. To pick on just one minor point, some artist would prefer a A default pose when, so far at least, the plan is for Dawn 2 will stick with the T default pose.
No figure, no matter how good, is going to please everyone but I see that as a positive not a negative in that it leaves vendors to make products (and money) for the requirement of others to supply what they need to those who do not have the skills to do it personally. I say that as someone who is definitely in that camp. I have already given an example of this in that I was not concerned with the default texture of the previous Dawn figures as I wanted something other than the norm but I need someone else too create it as I do not have the skills and, at my age, maybe not the time to learn them.
I am not suggesting for a minute that Chris should leave problem areas for others to fix and I know that Dawn 2 will not only be a big step forward but will incorporate many of the great ideas and experiences discussed her. I am 100% behind this process and indeed everything the Hivewire team have done so far, but I do not want to set a bar so high that they are bound to fail but then that may just be me being neurotic.
Hornet3d
Wise
,
I find you comments interesting, but then I always do. I remember way back as a kid watching a program in TV about one of the big car model manufactures, Corgi, Dinky or some such company of that ilk. They were discussing the a particular scale model or a car and the interviewer asked it it was an exact scale model and, I think to his surprise, the company rep said no. He went on to explain that if every thing was scaled precisely that some items such as 'A' pillars did not look right and were made slightly thicker than the scale would suggest. Despite my years of playing with 3D knowledge of figure creation and anatomy is pretty slim but I wonder if there are some areas where the modeller needs to break from real anatomy to make a 3D figure work and look right in the software we use.
I'm still working over the hand and fingers. I have all the fingers done now, as far as the overall topology layout. I still have to reshape them now. I need to decide how to best handle the knuckles still. I still need to create the fingernails as well. But right now I'm working on the transition from fingers to the hand or palm. Nothing worth showing just yet.
I will scale down the hand after reshaping it. I will also shorten the whole arm.
I will scale down the hand after reshaping it. I will also shorten the whole arm.
Desertsilver
Busy Bee
@Male-M3dia : I d love to see you make some of your beautiful morph packs, even if it is only faces, for the new Dusk when he comes about.