Dawn 2.0 Underway

[Ken1171]

But ... depending on what you did to the face/eyes, wouldn't you also need to create morphs for the eyelashes so they follow the head/face/eyelid morphs.

If the lashes are conformed to the figure (like they are in Genesis 8), Auto-Follow can be a great way to make them fit the new morph shape automatically, not to mention what many said above - the lashes don't get in the way of sculpting the face. Even if Auto-follow doesn't produce a perfect result, it's still a better starting point than nothing. We would still have to fix blinking morphs, it conforming lashes would help with the above.

Plus for those of us that create free and for sale content being able to import Dawn and eventually Dusk 2.0 into ZBrush or Blender or what ever software your using to create your new character you can leave the lash geometry out of the equation and do your thing without having to hide those extra 4 layers of geometry to see what the heck your doing around the eyes. Lashes that came in as part of the main model were always very off putting to my creative process.

I create most of my morphs in Poser with the Morphing Tool, and there I don't have the option to exclude the lashes like we can in zBrush, so that is a problem. Even if I hide the lashes in Poser, they STILL get affected by the brushes. That would be an additional reason to keep the lashes separate from the head.

As for the facial rig with body handles, that would save me TONS of morph corrections when creating masks, cowls, and other kinds of faceware for Dawn. When I made that "Superhero" outfit for Dawn, it included 2 masks and 1 cowl, where each required like a hundred facial morph corrections, which was insane.

Depending on the custom morph, you'd still need to fix lashes, including making sure they don't overlap when eyes are closed. Since Poser needs to be supported, they probably should stay part of the mesh as automorph generation doesn't exist to help conform the lashes to the figure. Also on that note, when making characters vendors should be creating eyeclose fixes if their characters are custom.

Yeah, we would still have to fix blinking morphs, so that would be the same in Poser and DS. When it comes to Auto-Fit, Poser Pro can copy morphs from the figure, so that wouldn't be a problem. Besides, that part would be done by content creators, so when the lashes are conformed to the figure, they automatically trigger the morphs already in use. Users won't have do do anything on their part because content creators will already provide lashes with the respective morphs in place. This is called Auto-Follow in DS, where in Poser this also works automatically with "super-conforming" items. Super-conforming works in Poser whether or not the user has Poser Pro or not, so that is not a problem. Whenever a face morph is created, the morph has to be made for the conforming lashes as well. Even in DS, Auto-fit is not a guarantee of perfect results, especially not for commercial products. It's a good starting point, though. It's the same in Poser Pro's copy morphs.

 

[Ken1171]

Fabi likes to be able to show translucency thru the nail to the nail bed. Also likes the nails to have UVs for normal length and a separate UV set for elongated or morphed nails to minimize stretching of maps.

We are trashing out super long lashes that don't really get used and are just in the way. We will keep the 2 upper and 2 lower lash sets. I will defer thoughts on conforming lashes to Paul's insights and thoughts. But I like your thinking.

Ohh, I see - translucency! I am not so sure that alone would be reason enough for this. IMHO, the effects of SSS or translucency on fingernails are rarely visible in a significant way in renders, unless in extreme close-ups. It's so subtle that we won't notice unless we pay specific attention to it because we know it's there, and we have a trained eye for 3D effects, but even then I am not sure it's noticeable because nails are so small.

However, I have thought of another reason for making fingernails separate geometry - so we can have nail polish on only ONE side, and not the other. I find it very odd and unrealistic when nail polish shows on the other side of the nails. Of course, this would only work if you would model nails as a shell, and not a plane.

As for conforming lashes, it's a great advancement to remove the large ones since I haven't seen them ever being used in all these years, but they certainly get in the way when making face sculpts. We could just stretch the normal lashes when needed, since lashes textures extend to the same direction of the stretch, we won't see any distortions.

When it comes to sculpting facial morphs, I use mostly Poser's Morphing Tool, and it doesn't allow excluding the lashes like we can in zBrush. Even if I hide them by material name, they still get affected by brushes in Poser, so that is a problem. The only possible solution would be if the lashes could be conforming instead of being part of the head. So that's another reason. I am eager to hear from Paul on ALL of these subjects when his turn comes.

 

[eclark1894]

I believe Teyon Alexander made separate Lashes for both Tyler and Roxie as part of an upgrade, but I can't honestly remember what he did as far as morphing for the face.

 

[Male-M3dia]

Yeah, we would still have to fix blinking morphs, so that would be the same in Poser and DS. When it comes to Auto-Fit, Poser Pro can copy morphs from the figure, so that wouldn't be a problem. Besides, that part would be done by content creators, so when the lashes are conformed to the figure, they automatically trigger the morphs already in use. Users won't have do do anything on their part because content creators will already provide lashes with the respective morphs in place. This is called Auto-Follow in DS, where in Poser this also works automatically with "super-conforming" items. Super-conforming works in Poser whether or not the user has Poser Pro or not, so that is not a problem. Whenever a face morph is created, the morph has to be made for the conforming lashes as well. Even in DS, Auto-fit is not a guarantee of perfect results, especially not for commercial products. It's a good starting point, though. It's the same in Poser Pro's copy morphs.

The term is auto morph generation. Autofit is the process of fitting clothing from a different figure generation to another figure via clones. Autofollow is when a morph is enabled to affect a conformer like a dress. Figure morphs, which are defined as "modifier/shapes" are set for autofollow as a default, but can be turned off. Items set for auto follow are sources for auto morph generation, unless that morph already exists in the target/conformer.

Although not having eye lashes as part of the base mesh can be easier to make face morphs, fixing them will be more difficult since you would have to fix the eyelash at the default pose, the eye close and the eyelash when the eye is closed. Also you will need the proper tool (zbrush since the issue with exporting grouped meshes from poser as an obj would cause problems, and GoZ is the best way to fix without those issues) and some vendors may not have proper tools to do it. But it varies per morphs, my previous released product I had to touch all of the eyelashes with correctives, then my current product I only had to touch one head morph. And that fix included making the lash morph, the corresponding empty morph on the figure that was set for autofollow and tied as an ERC to the head morph via the Property Hierarchy.

 

[Ken1171]

The term is auto morph generation. Autofit is the process of fitting clothing from a different figure generation to another figure via clones. Autofollow is when a morph is enabled to affect a conformer like a dress. Figure morphs, which are defined as "modifier/shapes" are set for autofollow as a default, but can be turned off. Items set for auto follow are sources for auto morph generation, unless that morph already exists in the target/conformer.

I was referring to Auto-Follow as to how the conforming lashes would fit the figure, assuming they have matching morphs (Super-conforming). Lashes are not clothing, but the principle and the results are the same. And BTW, Auto-Fit in DS will work with or without clones. Poser doesn't auto-generate morphs like DS does. We have to explicitly ask Poser to do it, and in a way, that gives me more control over the process. As for Auto-Follow, that's the equivalent of "super-conforming" in Poser. In DS they can be disabled, but in Poser, as long as the names match, it will super-conform whenever the morph is present. This last one is a concept that doesn't exist in DS, since all morphs always exist. In spite of the naming and functionality differences, conforming lashes should work the same in both programs.

Although not having eye lashes as part of the base mesh can be easier to make face morphs, fixing them will be more difficult since you would have to fix the eyelash at the default pose, the eye close and the eyelash when the eye is closed. Also you will need the proper tool (zbrush since the issue with exporting grouped meshes from poser as an obj would cause problems, and GoZ is the best way to fix without those issues) and some vendors may not have proper tools to do it. But it varies per morphs, my previous released product I had to touch all of the eyelashes with correctives, then my current product I only had to touch one head morph.

Like you said, it varies depending on the morph. None of these things would be more or less problematic in Poser or DS. Eye closing morphs would have to be fixed in both cases, going through the exact same steps. Auto-Fit in DS can only be used for personal use, or as a starting point for fixing the morphs when it comes to commercial products. Same thing with Poser Pro's "Copy Morph From". The rare cases where Auto-Fit or Copy Morphs would produce a usable shape are rare and random. Lucky us when it happens, but don't count on it.

In addition, there is no need for external tools, since Poser ships with the Morphing Tool, which is what I use to fix such things. There is indeed the issue of group splitting when exported OBJs, but in this particular case, that is irrelevant since the fixing can be done internally, without the need to export anything. Conversely, DS doesn't have any editing tools, so external tools may be the only option there. In my case, I create the morph corrections in Poser with the in-house Morphing Tool, and then export the morphs to use in the DS versions. Other people may prefer to use zBrush if they like. If you develop for both Poser and DS, you can create your morphs in Poser, so zBrush becomes mostly a matter of personal preference. As an example, I have created my entire "Body Type" series using just Poser in-house tools, and the DS versions used the shapes exported from Poser. Everything worked beautifully in both programs when it comes to mesh sculpting, to include JCMs, just using Poser in-house tools. However, if you only have DS, then yes, you will need zBrush or another external tool of your choice.

 

[Male-M3dia]

I was referring to Auto-Follow as to how the conforming lashes would fit the figure, assuming they have matching morphs (Super-conforming). Lashes are not clothing, but the principle and the results are the same. And BTW, Auto-Fit in DS will work with or without clones. Poser doesn't auto-generate morphs like DS does. We have to explicitly ask Poser to do it, and in a way, that gives me more control over the process. As for Auto-Follow, that's the equivalent of "super-conforming" in Poser. In DS they can be disabled, but in Poser, as long as the names match, it will super-conform whenever the morph is present. This last one is a concept that doesn't exist in DS, since all morphs always exist. In spite of the naming and functionality differences, conforming lashes should work the same in both programs.



Like you said, it varies depending on the morph. None of these things would be more or less problematic in Poser or DS. Eye closing morphs would have to be fixed in both cases, going through the exact same steps. Auto-Fit in DS can only be used for personal use, or as a starting point for fixing the morphs when it comes to commercial products. Same thing with Poser Pro's "Copy Morph From". The rare cases where Auto-Fit or Copy Morphs would produce a usable shape are rare and random. Lucky us when it happens, but don't count on it.

In addition, there is no need for external tools, since Poser ships with the Morphing Tool, which is what I use to fix such things. There is indeed the issue of group splitting when exported OBJs, but in this particular case, that is irrelevant since the fixing can be done internally, without the need to export anything. Conversely, DS doesn't have any editing tools, so external tools may be the only option there. In my case, I create the morph corrections in Poser with the in-house Morphing Tool, and then export the morphs to use in the DS versions. Other people may prefer to use zBrush if they like. If you develop for both Poser and DS, you can create your morphs in Poser, so zBrush becomes mostly a matter of personal preference. As an example, I have created my entire "Body Type" series using just Poser in-house tools, and the DS versions used the shapes exported from Poser. Everything worked beautifully in both programs when it comes to mesh sculpting, to include JCMs, just using Poser in-house tools. However, if you only have DS, then yes, you will need zBrush or another external tool of your choice.

Your terminology is still off, but it gets away from the point that the work will be more involved and you need the proper tools to do precision work as a content provider. Poser isn't it, especially for precision work. DS isn't either. This isn't a poser/ds battle. You need the proper tools regardless especially if your base of the eyelashes need to be adjusted to the edge of the eyelids.

 

[Ken1171]

@Male-M3dia You can control the Morphing Tool brush precision by setting its "Magnitude" parameter. It can be as broad stroke or precise as you want. I am not just saying it out of whim - I have been using it with commercial products for years. I have zBrush, but I rarely need it for things like morph adjustments, because the in-house Poser tools can handle them just fine. I am not sure from where your concern about precision is coming from, but if I could handle this with the in-house tools, you could too. Not only morph corrections, but full mesh sculpting as well. If you check my "Body Type" series of full body shapes for Dawn, those were entirely sculpted with in-house tools. I have also created hundreds of feet morphs for Genesis 3 and 8 using the Morphing Tool, down to individual toenails and knuckles. There was no lack of precision when I did those. Of course, some people are more comfortable with zBrush, but again, that is a personal preference. Just pick the tool you are most comfortable with.

 

[Male-M3dia]

@Male-M3dia You can control the Morphing Tool brush precision by setting its "Magnitude" parameter. It can be as broad stroke or precise as you want. I am not just saying it out of whim - I have been using it with commercial products for years. I have zBrush, but I rarely need it for things like morph adjustments, because the in-house Poser tools can handle them just fine. I am not sure from where your concern about precision is coming from, but if I could handle this with the in-house tools, you could too. Not only morph corrections, but full mesh sculpting as well. If you check my "Body Type" series of full body shapes for Dawn, those were entirely sculpted with in-house tools. I have also created hundreds of feet morphs for Genesis 3 and 8 using the Morphing Tool, down to individual toenails and knuckles. There was no lack of precision when I did those. Of course, some people are more comfortable with zBrush, but again, that is a personal preference. Just pick the tool you are most comfortable with.

Ok so you have done a dozen or more conforming eyelash fixes? I have, so if you haven't I've giving you first hand experience that you don't have. And the morph brush will not cut it for rotating and moving the small section of mesh that connects the eyelash and eyelid. We're not talking body shapes, I've done those for almost a decade (including fat creases, muscle flexes, etc) .. these are small areas that need fixing and you need a precision tool to do that.

 

[Male-M3dia]

Keep in mind my comments are based on experience of making conforming eyelash fixes, and I'm saying other people will have difficulty doing the fixes properly. Also Eclarke mentioned that Roxie and Rex had those conforming eyelashes, and Teyon went back to the attached mesh ones in Pauline because of the difficulty of supporting those in Poser. And it comes down to ease of use when developing content, development is better served with having them attached because not everyone will be able to fix them in both programs.

 

[Male-M3dia]

For example, are you saying in this example, you can freeze one part of the mesh and pull out the other so both lashes are corrected and in the same spot using the morph brush?

 

[eclark1894]

Keep in mind my comments are based on experience of making conforming eyelash fixes, and I'm saying other people will have difficulty doing the fixes properly. Also Eclarke mentioned that Roxie and Rex had those conforming eyelashes, and Teyon went back to the attached mesh ones in Pauline because of the difficulty of supporting those in Poser. And it comes down to ease of use when developing content, development is better served with having them attached because not everyone will be able to fix them in both programs.

Well, I did mention Rex and Roxie, but it should remembered that the changes were made BECAUSE they were causing a problem with the Face Room. It wasn't recognizing the figures. I made one character based on the Face Room, but I had no problems what-so-ever, and that was before the change.

 

[Chris]

Okay there folks. Perhaps we move this conversation along. I don't want this thread getting out of hand like the thread talking about the latest SM Poser female figure.

I'm sensing tension that simply doesn't need to exist. Folks need to be able to share ideas and give input in this thread about Dawn 2.0 without having to feel defensive about those ideas and methods.

My Dawn thread here is getting steered in other directions now that I don't prefer.

If a couple of you want to private message each other and share your personal emails so you can discuss your methods and processes, feel free to do so, but not in this thread.

This won't become a pissing match!

 

[Chris]

Work continues on re-topo for Dawn 2.0. I've now done the thumb and first finger. The nails are now removed as well. Once I finish out the rest of the fingers, I'll reshape those fingers and the hand and palm. I'll also finish making quads on the rest of the hand. Then move on to the ankle and foot.

 

[Ken1171]

Work continues on re-topo for Dawn 2.0. I've now done the thumb and first finger. The nails are now removed as well. Once I finish out the rest of the fingers, I'll reshape those fingers and the hand and palm. I'll also finish making quads on the rest of the hand. Then move on to the ankle and foot.

Looking good, Chris! I am wondering is the fingernails will be double-sided, so we can can apply nail polish to one side only.

 

[Chris]

Yes, for sure double sided nails.

 

[eclark1894]

Now that I mull it over a bit, separate nail geometry might be best. You actually have another add-on product for the store as with Lee's Press On Nails. And longer nails will definitely feminize those hands.

 

[eclark1894]

BTW, Chris, something I've noticed recently as people try to add more realism, do you plan to add more ridges to the knuckles or is that more of a displacement move?

 

[Chris]

BTW, Chris, something I've noticed recently as people try to add more realism, do you plan to add more ridges to the knuckles or is that more of a displacement move?

I'll do some reshaping for sure. Probably add in more loops for better bends on knuckles. I may try to add in some geometry for a "knuckle look". But yeah, I think a good texture and displacement would perform nicely, don't you?

 

[RAMWolff]

Those hands look just beautiful Chris!

 

[eclark1894]

I'll do some reshaping for sure. Probably add in more loops for better bends on knuckles. I may try to add in some geometry for a "knuckle look". But yeah, I think a good texture and displacement would perform nicely, don't you?

I do. I'm learning a lot from modeling.