Dawn 2.0 Underway

[Ken1171]

No figure, no matter how good, is going to please everyone but I see that as a positive not a negative in that it leaves vendors to make products (and money) for the requirement of others to supply what they need to those who do not have the skills to do it personally. I say that as someone who is definitely in that camp. I have already given an example of this in that I was not concerned with the default texture of the previous Dawn figures as I wanted something other than the norm but I need someone else too create it as I do not have the skills and, at my age, maybe not the time to learn them.

All good points. We can't please everyone. I have actually tried once, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, but it didn't take long until I felt like hitting my head on a wall. The difference here is that we have something to compare to - figures that we know were successful and have please the majority of people. I believe V4 fits the role, because she is still on stores today, in spite of newer figures having departed from legacy rigging, and the fact that she has never even posed well.

I think there are 2 major factors here:

1) Her default shape/proportions, and
2) The magnets rigging that has eliminated 100% the need for JCM adjustments.

Considering V4's poor posing didn't keep her from becoming popular, it is reasonable to believe that the default shape may be MORE important than how well she poses. Don't even get me started on how ugly her default (orange & purple) texture was, but note that wasn't a factor for V4. And yet, it was for Dawn. There is a balance between those factors that may cause the scale to tip to one side more easily. With the new default shape Chris has been working on, would that make Dawn 2.0 harder to tip the scale when people will compare the factors?

Some have claimed that V4 proportions are unrealistic, and some have claimed that Dawn looks more realistic. However, look at the chart posted above - Dawn and V4 have almost identical proportions. Keep in mind that historically, V4 has pleased most people. The major difference is that V4 is the slender, skinnier type. I suppose that means that's what MOST people like. I know we cannot please everybody, but we also know what has pleased most people in this market by just looking back in history. This is a VERY unforgiving market. How many brand new figures have died in the way? DOZENS! I saw many of them rise and fall overnight. If V4 has survived all this even without decent posing, it's definitely a case study.

Now changing the subject to the head, I believe what Chris has done by removing the strong "Dawn character" traces from the default shape will have a big impact on character sales. As an example, I personally don't buy character morphs if I can still see Dawn's default face on it. The default head should be generic, not a character with strong, very recognizable features. This is very important. Character artists are the ones to add the strong features, instead of first having to remove them before they can start their work on it. These changes Chris has done on the head will make Dawn 2.0 a better "blank slate" to create upon. This means character morphs made with Dawn 2.0 should no longer have the embedded and recognizable "Dawn face" on them, which has the potential to increase sales and make character creation easier.

Now, back to what makes V4 successful, we have factor #2: the magnets rigging that removes the heavy work with pesky JCMs. On the Dawn side, she only has a couple of JCMs, so it's easier to create contents for her than it is with most other mainstream JCM-heavy figures. Here's a delicate balance - how many JCMs does it take to make a figure unpleasant to work with? The more JCMs, the more accurate the posing, but the harder to rig clothing for it. However, Paul had demonstrated with Dawn that it is possible to get a darn good shoulder posing with zero JCMs. I bet a lot of people take that for granted.

I believe Dawn has enough JCMs on the thighs, but her thigh joint centers were misplaced (too low). What the JCMs are doing is to compensate for that, instead of concentrating on correcting the thigh shapes when bent. So perhaps what Dawn 2.0 needs is a better joint center placement on the thighs, so the JCMs can be dedicated to do the job they were supposed to do. My "Perfect Pelvis" can only correct some of the issues that came from this, but obviously not all. The legs rigging on Dawn 2.0 should concentrate on preserving the crotch shape, and providing a smoother bend between the pelvis and the thighs, without collapsing the mesh at the bends.

For that to happen, I am not sure if the topology needs changing, or if additional JCMs should be required. This makes me a little anxious because I don't want more JCMs, but sometimes that becomes a necessary evil. After all, all other modern figures have succumbed to it. The art here will be to achieve the most with the least JCMs. However, I have seen plenty of examples where JCMs were added to compensate for poor topology and joint adjustments. Looking at the current Dawn 2.0 topology here, that looks unlikely. Getting thigh and shoulder ball-joints to bend well have always been a challenge with any figure, but with Dawn 2.0, my major attention will be on the thighs.

Now back to the main subject - the default shape that pleases [almost] everybody. Considering V4 and Dawn share more or less the same proportions, it seems like the new Dawn 2.0 slender shape should give [most] people what they want. Looking back in history, that seems like an educated opinion. When I take a peek at the other side of the fence, basically ALL of the Genesis went that way as well, so that is a trend there. I suppose that means that what Chris has been doing with the default shape is straight on target.

 

[Ken1171]

I'm still working over the hand and fingers. I have all the fingers done now, as far as the overall topology layout. I still have to reshape them now. I need to decide how to best handle the knuckles still. I still need to create the fingernails as well. But right now I'm working on the transition from fingers to the hand or palm. Nothing worth showing just yet.

I will scale down the hand after reshaping it. I will also shorten the whole arm.

About the knuckles, there were plenty of complains regarding LaFemme's hands having pronounced knuckles on her default shape. I have personally found that unattractive, like the hands of an old bony lady. People had to be reminded many times that there was a morph to smooth out the fingers. Perhaps that should had been the default setting. I understand there were requests for more detailed hands on Dawn 2.0, but perhaps it's best to be subtle. Below is an example of default finger knuckles that have displeased some people (me included).

 

[Hornet3d]

About the knuckles, there were plenty of complains regarding LaFemme's hands having pronounced knuckles on her default shape. I have personally found that unattractive, like the hands of an old bony lady. People had to be reminded many times that there was a morph to smooth out the fingers. Perhaps that should had been the default setting. I understand there were requests for more detailed hands on Dawn 2.0, but perhaps it's best to be subtle. Below is an example of default finger knuckles that have displeased some people (me included).

View attachment 45863

That does not look good and, as you say if there is the ability to smooth the hands I wonder why that was not the default. The pronounced knuckles make the fingers look weird to me they have profile of a miniature big dipper to my eyes.

 

[eclark1894]

That does not look good and, as you say if there is the ability to smooth the hands I wonder why that was not the default. The pronounced knuckles make the fingers look weird to me they have profile of a miniature big dipper to my eyes.

And we come to a major "eye of the beholder moment" because that looks fine to me and quite realistic. Could actually stand a few more ridges. And I was looking down at my own hand when I brought the subject up to Chris. I also went looking for some womens' hands. I liked what I saw. Still, I'm not an insistent person with only one way to do things. If smooth hands is what does it for you...

 

[RAMWolff]

Now changing the subject to the head, I believe what Chris has done by removing the strong "Dawn character" traces from the default shape will have a big impact on character sales. As an example, I personally don't buy character morphs if I can still see Dawn's default face on it. The default head should be generic, not a character with strong, very recognizable features. This is very important. Character artists are the ones to add the strong features, instead of first having to remove them before they can start their work on it. These changes Chris has done on the head will make Dawn 2.0 a better "blank slate" to create upon. This means character morphs made with Dawn 2.0 should no longer have the embedded and recognizable "Dawn face" on them, which has the potential to increase sales and make character creation easier.

That's why it took me so long to make Tommy and Tina for Dusk and Dawn. I didn't want to see ANY trace of the default face OR body! I succeeded but because I was only supporting DAZ Studio my sales were less than spectacular.

 

[DanaTA]

That's why it took me so long to make Tommy and Tina for Dusk and Dawn. I didn't want to see ANY trace of the default face OR body! I succeeded but because I was only supporting DAZ Studio my sales were less than spectacular.

Well, that's a sad statement!

Dana

 

[RAMWolff]

It's the truth though. My old brain just can't remember all the rendering engines and how to set up shaders for two programs. So I had to bite the bullet and just support the program I use daily, DAZ Studio! Tis what it tis I'm afraid!

 

[Hornet3d]

And we come to a major "eye of the beholder moment" because that looks fine to me and quite realistic. Could actually stand a few more ridges. And I was looking down at my own hand when I brought the subject up to Chris. I also went looking for some womens' hands. I liked what I saw. Still, I'm not an insistent person with only one way to do things. If smooth hands is what does it for you...

As you said, in the eye of the beholder and if there is a morph to change it then we could both be happy. It is not the detail of the knuckles that I don't like it is the concave nature of the upper part of the fingers. It would look great on an elderly witch character though.

 

[Hornet3d]

It's the truth though. My old brain just can't remember all the rendering engines and how to set up shaders for two programs. So I had to bite the bullet and just support the program I use daily, DAZ Studio! Tis what it tis I'm afraid!

I can relate to that, the only reason I do not use DS is because I would have to learn and remember new ways of working and, at my age, the latter is the more difficult. Which is why it is so great that Dawn, and the upcoming Dawn 2 does\will work in both programs.

 

[Ken1171]

It's the truth though. My old brain just can't remember all the rendering engines and how to set up shaders for two programs. So I had to bite the bullet and just support the program I use daily, DAZ Studio! Tis what it tis I'm afraid!

Yeah, I've got to that point as well, where there are so many rendering engine materials to support that I can't handle it anymore. It's hard enough to handle FF and SF in Poser, and I have never learned how to make I-ray MDL shaders for DS. If I make something that needs materials, I can't make it for Poser and DS anymore. That's the thing I was mentioning in the other thread, that as product prices are going down, the complexity of making them keep going up. That was the main reason why some of my products don't have a DS version. You're not alone on that, pal!

As you said, in the eye of the beholder and if there is a morph to change it then we could both be happy. It is not the detail of the knuckles that I don't like it is the concave nature of the upper part of the fingers. It would look great on an elderly witch character though.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Hornet3d]

Yeah, I've got to that point as well, where there are so many rendering engine materials to support that I can't handle it anymore. It's hard enough to handle FF and SF in Poser, and I have never learned how to make I-ray MDL shaders for DS. If I make something that needs materials, I can't make it for Poser and DS anymore. That's the thing I was mentioning in the other thread, that as product prices are going down, the complexity of making them keep going up. That was the main reason why some of my products don't have a DS version. You're not alone on that, pal!

I know it is hard for people struggling if their finances and not being able to have the latest software, well at least Poser users, and those with a reluctance or inability to grasp new ideas but I think there has to come a Point when we have to let the past go. It has already reached the point where some cannot use some latest figures as their version of software does not support weight mapping. It would seem unfair to expect vendors to support every possible render engine when you consider how low the prices are. Look at the prices in other marketplaces where the content only supports one software and often only one render engine, that is the sort of prices that will come to pass on every marketplace if we as customers press for all options content. Either that or the vendors will give up and walk away as so many already have.

 

[Desertsilver]

These hands are already looking so good- it really shows your understanding of the structures underneath. I think it was ken that mentioned that we instinctively know when something is 'off' about a face, even though we are not clear on what it is of we have not studied drawing or anatomy. I believe it is the same with hands.

 

[RAMWolff]

Boy, isn't that the truth. I think this community (DAZ Studio / Poser) is quite fortunate that we have the price structure we have. Beyond this community are some prices that would make most here go WTF! LOL

 

[Desertsilver]

I don't think the hand is actually too bony, it's that the structure under the skin is not correct. As soon as a finger makes the tiniest bend, the flesh underneath should 'wrinkle' or indent. The bones in the thumb are curved in a way I've never seen on a real hand.

 

[Desertsilver]

You are so right, Hornet. I see one wonderful artist, BadKitteh Co, lamenting on facebook how much she misses making 3d models. She had to take a 'real job'.
I'm really grateful for all the artists who make these models and textures for us, often as more a labor of love.

 

[esha]

Considering V4's poor posing didn't keep her from becoming popular, it is reasonable to believe that the default shape may be MORE important than how well she poses.

I've been following this thread with interest but until now I've refrained from commenting; since I don't work with Dawn or Dusk I don't really feel entitled to chime in.
I do have considerable experience with V4, though, so I would like to add my thoughts to this statement.

We mustn't forget that at the time V4 was released she was the best figure available. Her posing was superior to all previous versions and I'm quite sure that it has been one of the reasons for her success. But compared to newer figures her bending is really not very good, as you've pointed out yourself. People still use her because they don't want to switch to Genesis for various reasons and don't want to use any of the other Poser-compatible figure either, also for various reasons. So yes, in V4's case her reasonably pleasing shape combined with a ton of available content (and massive content collections on users' harddrives) outweighs her posing problems.

In my personal opinon Dawn is the only viable alternative to V4. The other female figures all have issues, either in the overall look, in their technical performance or in content support. Dawn 2.0 looks even better than Dawn 1, so this looks really promising, especially for Poser users
However, I also think that the conclusion "nice shape is more important than good posing" is the road to failure. If you end up with a figure that has a nice shape but poses just as badly as V4 you will have gained nothing. Users will simply stick to V4. To make them give up (more or less) on the content they've already collected for V4 the new figure must present huge advantages over V4, otherwise they won't make the switch. So yes, good posing is very important for a figure, especially nowadays where it won't be the only available one but has some competition.

But I'm sure the HW team knows all these things very well

That said, I really don't know why the arms are such a problem in 3D figures. I just checked in a mirror: my shoulders are about as wide as my hips, and when I lower my arms I can feel the inside of my upper arms touch my ribcage but it doesn't feel squished - and it certainly doesn't intersect
I don't know a lot about anatomy but I wonder why this natural movement can't be replicated in 3D figures. They all have issues with their arms lowered, and if you add a bit of heavy morph the issues get worse. And these are serious issues as they interfere a lot with cloth simulations (no simulation engine likes self-intersecting meshes with fabric in between).
I'm very curious to see how Dawn 2.0 will be rigged in the end

 

[DanaTA]

I know it is hard for people struggling if their finances and not being able to have the latest software, well at least Poser users, and those with a reluctance or inability to grasp new ideas but I think there has to come a Point when we have to let the past go. It has already reached the point where some cannot use some latest figures as their version of software does not support weight mapping. It would seem unfair to expect vendors to support every possible render engine when you consider how low the prices are. Look at the prices in other marketplaces where the content only supports one software and often only one render engine, that is the sort of prices that will come to pass on every marketplace if we as customers press for all options content. Either that or the vendors will give up and walk away as so many already have.

I have one problem with "let the past go." Many in this community don't have the funding to get the latest hardware in order to run dynamic simulations, use Iray, or use the higher end figures. When they try these new items and techniques, they wait for sometimes more than a full day to get a single render out. Sometimes they don't even succeed, because their computer crashes. People on fixed incomes can't upgrade their computer. Can't replace their "massive" content libraries. They use what they have, happily. Yes, they sometimes grumble about not being able to get an Iray render out in ten minutes. But they know their financial limitations. If faced with "upgrade or do without", many of them will simply find another hobby.

I love progress in technology, but I find myself in this category to some extent. I can't afford to upgrade my video card to one that has hundreds or thousands of cores. I can't get more RAM for my Core2Duo motherboard, it's too expensive. At least I have been able to do some simple Iray renders, but I don't know what will happen if I have several figures in the scene, and furniture and other props.

Just some thoughts.

Back on track...I think the updates to Dawn 2 are looking really good. I agree with Desertsilver about the fingers, though. And Esha makes a good point about the arms intersecting the torso, especially for draping dynamic cloth.

Dana

 

[eclark1894]

I have one problem with "let the past go." Many in this community don't have the funding to get the latest hardware in order to run dynamic simulations, use Iray, or use the higher end figures. When they try these new items and techniques, they wait for sometimes more than a full day to get a single render out. Sometimes they don't even succeed, because their computer crashes. People on fixed incomes can't upgrade their computer. Can't replace their "massive" content libraries. They use what they have, happily. Yes, they sometimes grumble about not being able to get an Iray render out in ten minutes. But they know their financial limitations. If faced with "upgrade or do without", many of them will simply find another hobby.

I love progress in technology, but I find myself in this category to some extent. I can't afford to upgrade my video card to one that has hundreds or thousands of cores. I can't get more RAM for my Core2Duo motherboard, it's too expensive. At least I have been able to do some simple Iray renders, but I don't know what will happen if I have several figures in the scene, and furniture and other props.

Dana

Okay, once again, we're drifting off the main topic course so I will add this as I have been doing it for years. It's not impossible to "upgrade" but it may be difficult to buy new. You don't have to have the Bat Computer to run Poser or DS. Just a competent one. In all my years of using Poser and computing, I've actually only bought two of them from stores. All the rest have been from Flea Markets, Used Computer Stores or State Surplus Stores.

If you wish to know more, I'll gladly help with what I know, but only in a thread for that purpose.

 

[Hornet3d]

I have one problem with "let the past go." Many in this community don't have the funding to get the latest hardware in order to run dynamic simulations, use Iray, or use the higher end figures. When they try these new items and techniques, they wait for sometimes more than a full day to get a single render out. Sometimes they don't even succeed, because their computer crashes. People on fixed incomes can't upgrade their computer. Can't replace their "massive" content libraries. They use what they have, happily. Yes, they sometimes grumble about not being able to get an Iray render out in ten minutes. But they know their financial limitations. If faced with "upgrade or do without", many of them will simply find another hobby.

I love progress in technology, but I find myself in this category to some extent. I can't afford to upgrade my video card to one that has hundreds or thousands of cores. I can't get more RAM for my Core2Duo motherboard, it's too expensive. At least I have been able to do some simple Iray renders, but I don't know what will happen if I have several figures in the scene, and furniture and other props.

Just some thoughts.

Back on track...I think the updates to Dawn 2 are looking really good. I agree with Desertsilver about the fingers, though. And Esha makes a good point about the arms intersecting the torso, especially for draping dynamic cloth.

Dana

I agree totally with what you have said which is why I started my post by acknowledging the difficulty and it would really be a shame to see anyone leave the hobby. Although Hivewire is a small team they have the time, skills and the drive to produce quality figures that will work in both DS and Poser and will have textures for the main render engines in both programs. I have no doubt that Dawn 2 will have a reduced price on launch, that has certainly been the case with figures so far, so that gives some of those on restricted budget a chance to buy into the latest tech. Of course it does nothing for those that do not have the hardware render in Iray or Superfly in any reasonable time but they can at least play with Dawn 2. Third party vendors are a different story they sometimes do not have the time or the skills to produce products that will work with so many different render engines and if they do, they get very little recompense, if any, for the extra work. I don't want to see DS or Poser vendors give up any more than I want to see those on a limited budget leave the hobby so there has to be some sort of compromise.

I was recently in a position I need to make use of my limited woodworking skills and needed a new blade for my circular saw, the saw is old but still works so imagine my annoyance when I find I can no longer buy the blades in the diameter to fit it as the new saw have much bigger blades. I had two choices buy a new saw or not do the woodworking I needed to do. Looking at this from a class half full POV, Hivewire at least are working to give great content for both programs and, it would appear those with DS at least, can use the latest and greatest with very little outlay. This does not address the hardware issue but I am afraid 3D art is not immune to progress.

Still this has gone off at a tangent from the purpose of the thread so I will now crawl back into my hole.

 

[Ken1171]

However, I also think that the conclusion "nice shape is more important than good posing" is the road to failure. If you end up with a figure that has a nice shape but poses just as badly as V4 you will have gained nothing. Users will simply stick to V4. To make them give up (more or less) on the content they've already collected for V4 the new figure must present huge advantages over V4, otherwise they won't make the switch. So yes, good posing is very important for a figure, especially nowadays where it won't be the only available one but has some competition.

That's very true - good posing is very important. I have been posting here my years of experience with the original Dawn to help the new one be the best it can be. I have just mentioned V4's poor posing because it didn't keep her from remaining relevant even nowadays. I didn't meant to say that Dawn 2.0 doesn't need to pose well, but instead I wanted to emphasize how important the default shape is (which is what Chris is working on here). When it comes to this, V4 is the only surviving member of her generation that is still going strong against all odds. I actually came from V4 before adopting Dawn, so I know what you mean about the contents.

There was this discussion about not being able to please every one, where I present V4 as the shape that actually did please [most] people, and it still does. If you look at my comparison chart posted above, Dawn is very close to V4's proportions, where the main differences are on the upper body, where Dawn tends to be a bit on the heavy side. Many of the changes Chris has been doing on Dawn 2.0 have been to tone her down to a more feminine shape. From V4 we already know that [most] people like a slender shape, so Dawn 2.0 is definitely going the right direction.

When it comes to posing, I am hoping Paul will be as open to the community as Chris has been. If it depends on the community, it is less likely that Dawn 2.0 won't pose well, because in a way, Paul will not do it alone. We will all help him in any way we can with ideas, suggestions and feedback. I have already posted plenty of grouping and rigging suggestions based on my experience with Dawn, and I hope some will be taken into consideration when it comes to Paul's turn.

I have no doubt that Dawn 2 will have a reduced price on launch, that has certainly been the case with figures so far, so that gives some of those on restricted budget a chance to buy into the latest tech.

If I remember this right, Dawn was 100% FREE when she was first released. She only got a price tag 2 years later, when Dawn SE was released. That gave people plenty of time to play with her for free in Poser and DS. I can't really tell, but my bet is that Dawn 2.0 will be like that as well.