Should you charge extra for that?

[Deleted member 325]

Interesting. I have noticed though, that people are balking at the idea of paying a slightly higher price for a product that esentially, all they have to do is load and render. So, let's turn the question around. What if you got a discount for a product that wasn't quite compatible with your preferred program? So, you have to convert .duf files to .obj files. and apply your own materials for Firefly or Superfly, or 3 delight and Iray? But you get a five dollar price discount?

So I don't use DS at all, I don't buy anything that is .DUF only.

 

[James R.]

Plenty of Poser users have said nasty things to other Poser users, and about Poser, and some of those Poser users are in this forum. He's allowed his opinion, just as any of us are...and just as any of those people who've said those nasty things are. Let's not get too high and mighty.

 

[eclark1894]

Plenty of Poser users have said nasty things to other Poser users, and about Poser, and some of those Poser users are in this forum. He's allowed his opinion, just as any of us are...and just as any of those people who've said those nasty things are. Let's not get too high and mighty.

I don't think a vendor should ever respond to a customer with a nasty attitude unless they're talking about your wife, mother or children. A vendor said something to me in the DAZ forum once when I said I didn't like a product or something about it. His response was, if I didn't like it I should learn to model. So I did.

 

[Rae134]

Just out of curiosity, I'm asking a two-fold question... If you make a product for one program, like Poser, but it doesn't work in Studio, should we be allowed to charge more to make a product work in another program? and are we allowed to charge more here at Hivewire? I'm not talking about an exorbitant amount. But if I made a dining room set for Poser and then I converted everything to .duf format for so it would work in Studio, is it wrong for me to charge, say, an extra five or ten dollars for having to convert the dining room set to .duf?

I'd like to hear your opinion. Is it a good idea, or bad? Would it increase the likelihood of vendors creating products in both formats? Inquiring , but crazy, minds want to know!

I don't think charging extra for one version is a good idea (marketing wise). I think it looks better to charge the same for each if you are doing it as separate products. A better marketing strategy is to have both products the same price but offer them at a discounted price if both are purchased (like here at HW where we have stacks, that way people who use both programs are more likely to purchase both better sales for you if the discount is worth it). Or if its not too much extra work, offer them as a single product at a slightly higher cost (but not high enough to stop either DS or Poser uses from buying because its too pricy).

 

[James R.]

I don't think a vendor should ever respond to a customer with a nasty attitude unless they're talking about your wife, mother or children. A vendor said something to me in the DAZ forum once when I said I didn't like a product or something about it. His response was, if I didn't like it I should learn to model. So I did.

I fully agree. When a vendor goes on a rant about a customer/customers in a public forum...that's a poor choice. When a vendor insults customers and then continues in the same forum...that's even more insulting. I've "blacklisted" a vendor for that behaviour. I'll never buy from them. I'm not going to give them my money.

 

[eclark1894]

In short:
1. $20 Poser version + $5 DS addon (or vice versa)
2. $20 Poser version and $25 DS version
3. $20 Poser version $20 DS version, $30 if you buy both
Most people see first and third as ok, second as not ok.

Hmm, that sounds like interesting option for the $5 add on, but I don't really see a difference between the first and second option.

 

[Glitterati3D]

You're giving him money for a product you have to make work in Poser. Ohh yeah. OUCH! BURN!

Actually, based on the response I got from a vendor when I offered them the converted to Poser files, I'd say some do consider it a burn. I was told if they wanted it to work in Poser, they would have make it do so themselves.

 

[eclark1894]

Actually, based on the response I got from a vendor when I offered them the converted to Poser files, I'd say some do consider it a burn. I was told if they wanted it to work in Poser, they would have make it do so themselves.

Maybe I'm missing something. How is buying a product that doesn't even work in Poser, from a vendor who apparently told Poser users to get lost, a burn? He made a sell he didn't even expect to make, and that's regardless of whether they get it to work in Poser or not.

 

[Deleted member 325]

Just thought, we are starting to meander quite a way from topic.

 

[eclark1894]

Just thought, we are starting to meander quite a way from topic.

Drift.. maybe. Not meander.

 

[HaiGan]

Back to the original question, from the point of view of a user/buyer, if something isn't initially available for my primary software (Poser) I will probably not buy it, even if I could 'get access' to it by paying for an expansion/upgrade or a third party converter. As to whether I would expect something to have Poser only and DS only versions (with or without a value stack type deal for buying both) or whether I would expect both versions packaged together, depends on what it is and where it's being sold. If it's being sold at Daz, none of the following applies, as the expectation these days is that products work with Daz software and any additional compatibility is a bonus. If it's being sold at a multi-platform outlet:

Shaders/textures: Mostly what is already on the market is for one render engine only, and that would colour the expectation. I'm very surprised if I see textures that ARE compatible with both DS and Poser. The exception is textures for figures, clothing and hair: I'd generally expect these to be compatible with everything that the original was compatible with, for no extra charge, unless they were absolutely extraordinary and specifically fine-tuned for one specific render engine.

Poses: Unless the figure is DS-only or Poser-only, I like pose packs to work in both DS and Poser (and as a vendor my own pose packs include both). It's a relatively simple process to go from one to the other. Obviously, if the figure is limited to one or the other then the poses would be the same.

Figures: While I can understand that there is a unique skill set for figure creation that differs between DS and Poser, purely as a user I can't help feeling that there's some sort of statement being made if a figure is only available for one or the other (regardless of the vendor's actual motives). Providing it's still within my budget I generally prefer one pack (even if higher priced) that covers both (as I do use both, I just use one far more, and I might also not use one until several months or even years after purchasing the figure- perhaps after the product has been taken off the market). I understand if each version of the figure is available separately, although I expect the same price if they are being sold through the same outlet (not necessarily the case if different versions are available in different places, although I'd expect prices to be within touching distance- a few dollars, not tens of dollars)

Conforming figures: These should absolutely be available for whatever software the base figure works in, and if the original figure comes at a single price for both then the conforming figure should too.

Props/scenery: Simple props with simple textures I really expect to find covering both. It's not that I can't import from one to the other (I've imported that sort of thing from other formats entirely), it's that so many simple props with simple textures are available for free I expect some work beyond that to have gone into the product. Complex scenery- complete scenes: if it's just the scenery I tend not to buy unless it's available for Poser or both DS/Poser. If it wasn't a single higher-price pack that covered both, like the figures I'd expect the individual versions to be the same price, or a similar price if sold through different outlets. If a vendor packages a scene with additional lighting and camera setups, props and figure poses I can understand why they might stick to one or the other, but I'm still not going to buy it if it isn't for Poser (and similarly if they do scenes for DS plus software other than Poser- I can understand that choice but I'm probably not going to be a customer).

 

[James R.]

So all vendors just stop making Poser stuff as far a you're concerned, and you'll buy it anyway?

Well no. I didn't say that, nor did I imply that. I want people to continue making Poser stuff because that's easy for me because I use Poser as my platform. But we were talking specifically about a certain vendor.

However... hypothetically... if suddenly all Poser content makers disappeared from the planet, and I still had the option of using Poser and getting non-Poser assets into my work? Yes, I'd totally buy other formats. Why wouldn't I? (Although if all vendors stopped making Poser stuff, Poser would either have to adapt to other formats or die. And if it died, I would by necessity have to move on to some other 3D software.)

Frankly, if I want or need something for my artwork, and I can make it work in Poser, heck yes, I'll buy it so I can use it. OBJ, FBX, 3DS, LWO, whatever works...all those formats you listed ... and yes, I'll even use DAZ formats, too if I can get them into Poser. I'm not "tribal" about "Poser versus DAZ". I have used Poser as my main 3D software for 12 years now, but I will use any figure or prop I can if it allows me to create what I want to create.

It's a lot easier if the things I need are made specifically for Poser, and I prefer things made specifically for Poser (and of course those people get most of my money) but if it's made in some other format and I can get it into Poser and use it, I'll do it because that benefits me. I will try to use all the tools I can find to make interesting stuff (even if it's only interesting to me).

An example... it was discovered by a forum member here that you can get Genesis 8 into Poser 11 Pro as an FBX file. You recall that you and I talked about that a bit. It takes work to do it, and it's not super easy to pose once it's in Poser. But it can be done. That discovery opened a huge door for me. Suddenly (even if it does take work and even if I'm not a fan of the DAZ/Genesis system) I have even more figures I can use in Poser.

We Poser users have been able to export items from Studio in a variety of ways for a long time. Directly from Studio, or using the method Glitterati mentioned, and maybe there are even other ways, too. If a Poser user wants to use a Studio asset in Poser, they probably can find a way to do it. As long as that option continues to be available to us, that's a good thing.

So... vendors can stop making stuff for Poser users, like the others who've abandoned Poser. It's inconvenient, but to me it doesn't matter. As a Poser user, with a bit of work, I can still use non-Poser stuff in Poser.

I'm not really paying for the "privilege" of using the non-Poser assets of someone who apparently dissed Poser users and abandoned Poser.

By buying a Daz Studio product and converting it for Poser... I'm investing in myself, my work, and furthering my art.

 

[Hornet3d]

So in a sort of summary of the case so far it seems that there is a number of people who frequent forums that are sensitive to pricing and also the way vendors treat their customers. If you look to be using what is deemed to be unfair pricing or have a blatant disregard for your customers they may put you on a blacklist. If you provide something roughly unique or your work is of a high standard being on a blacklist may have little impact but for others it could have a major impact. In short the 3D art market is not very different from real life in general, with one large exception in that unless you are very good and have lots of sales the recompense when equated to the time and effort spent is, for the most part, very small.

The blacklist has two sides, there are a few companies I do not use, does me not spending impact them, not a jot, but I feel much better spending my money where it appears my custom is welcome/valued. In short I would rather help the good guys than the bad guys. Guess why I always come to Hivewire first when I have money to spare. Others will be different of course but I am not asking them to play by my rules but for my peace of mind, I do.

So my reading so far of this is most people's answer to the question posed is 'best not' but if you do be aware of the possible impact. Then again I am not a vendor and no forum, no matter how popular, speaks for the majority of those buying 3D content though the majority may well agree of course.

 

[phdubrov]

Hmm, that sounds like interesting option for the $5 add on, but I don't really see a difference between the first and second option.

In the first option, if you buy Poser version and addon you have a product that works in both programs. In the second, for the same price, you have only DS version. While it can be irrelevant for the people who exclusively use DS, the perceived value is more in the first case.

 

[eclark1894]

In the first option, if you buy Poser version and addon you have a product that works in both programs. In the second, for the same price, you have only DS version. While it can be irrelevant for the people who exclusively use DS, the perceived value is more in the first case.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[tparo]

There are a few vendors I don't buy from because back in the day they were rude and dismissive of DS users asking for more DS compatibility. But I don't name them in public and make insulting remarks about them or there work.
Then of course there are those Poser users and vendors that put me off Poser due to their insulting posts about DS and its users, the DS artist's work that they have ripped to pieces.

The question here seemed to be would a DS user pay more for a conversion than the Poser user paid for the product, I still haven't read an explanation of why the conversion should be more than the original.

 

[eclark1894]

There are a few vendors I don't buy from because back in the day they were rude and dismissive of DS users asking for more DS compatibility. But I don't name them in public and make insulting remarks about them or there work.
Then of course there are those Poser users and vendors that put me off Poser due to their insulting posts about DS and its users, the DS artist's work that they have ripped to pieces.

The question here seemed to be would a DS user pay more for a conversion than the Poser user paid for the product, I still haven't read an explanation of why the conversion should be more than the original.

No, the question was would ANY user, regardless of their preferred program, be willing to pay a few bucks more for a converted version of the original product. For me, personally, it would depend primarily on the product, maybe the vendor too, but yeah, as long as the additional cost wasn't too outrageous, I'd be willing.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Just a reminder ... this (meaning HiveWire) really isn't the right place to blacklist a vendor based on comments they may have made elsewhere.

 

[Eota]

No, the question was would ANY user, regardless of their preferred program, be willing to pay a few bucks more for a converted version of the original product. For me, personally, it would depend primarily on the product, maybe the vendor too, but yeah, as long as the additional cost wasn't too outrageous, I'd be willing.

I only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed already, but another option a lot of big companies use is spreading excess cost across the whole- for instance, if a company makes, like, herb-roasted almonds, and also makes sweet-spiced almonds, they might charge the exact same for both despite the fact that maybe the spices cost more for them or the herb-roasted has an extra step that requires them to pay employees for more work to make them. They make it work by slightly increasing the cost of BOTH rather than increasing the cost of just one by more.

So, in your example, the Poser version and DS version might both be $22.50 instead of 20 for one and 25 for another. It effectively shrinks the cost of the extra effort for the consumer while still making sure you're paid for your work, and the customers feel equal in your eyes.

That being said, the $5 add-on is also a strong idea, and the difference between that and releasing both but at different price-points, for customers (beyond the excellent reason already listed of people using both programs getting compatibility across both for a much more reasonable cost) is, for a lot of people, it's a MESSAGE that says "I completed this product for this one program, but then I decided to make it compatible for those of you who don't use the program I'm most comfortable in, despite that this took extra time and effort". In contrast, releasing both full versions but at different prices feels, as many people have said, like a slap in the face. The consumer doesn't necessarily know you were working with a finished product that you then have to retroactively tinker with to make work across platforms. They just think, "Oh, that vendor really doesn't like/isn't good at my program of choice and is punishing me for it." It's a trivial difference to you, but to a customer who doesn't understand the process by which you made the product and converted it, it's a black hole of misunderstanding that feels like they're paying extra for a vendor's lack of knowledge at best, or a vendor's insult at worst, even if that isn't the case at all.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to charge more for a conversion of a product! How you handle that extra cost, though, can make a big difference to customers, as you've probably already heard.

 

[StudioMartillo]

I hope that because I make content only for Poser that people don't think it's being 'dismissive' of DS users.
The whole Poser vs DS blather is getting very tired and stale.

Anyway, all my products are FREE! And available for unrestricted use.
So, if someone likes a certain thing, and thinks it would be good to make a DS version, that would be very nice.
You could even re-distribute any of it so other DS users can have it too. Even sell it if you please.
Might get someone ticked off if a free version popped up.

You could take just the geometry and completely re-configure, or re-texture, and re-package.
There's some recent things I haven't packaged yet that probably should be, but I'm just playin'.
Doin' whatever happens to be entertaining at the moment.
I'll try to get them out pretty soon.