Official Announcement: HiveWire 3D to publish Animals through DAZ 3D

[Ken Gilliland]

Does this include Ken's birds?

I've wrestled with HW's announcement for a couple months now, and found surprisingly that 4 years hasn't dulled the pain of some all the wounds that caused my initial departure from DAZ. I also weighed in on my responsibility as HW's first and cornerstone CA.

So, everything of mine is staying at HiveWire3D (for now). When, and if, the Horse moves, it might make sense to move my horse wings and racing tack with the horse, but they'll be available at HW first.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Much as it's been difficult to see any real movement toward supporting Poser and Poser customers again ... it is possible this is another attempt by DAZ to regain Poser customers. That was supposedly one of the reasons DAZ absorbed RDNA ... though I'm not sure DAZ ever actually stated that. But, we do keep hearing that DAZ wants to support Poser and Poser users. However, since it's so hard to find Poser products in the DAZ store, it's hard to see whether acquiring RDNA resulted in more Poser support. Or ... if it just removed a competitor from the market.

I'm not sure we (Poser customers) were that big a loss for DAZ. I mean depending on who is talking, Poser is dead and Poser users non existent. But DAZ did just let go a rather significant amount of staff and PAs, so it's possible they are feeling a financial pinch. Reacquiring even a small portion of Poser customers could well result in a decent increase in sales. DAZ has always been rather good at marketing ... and those constant sales get a bit difficult to resist. Not to mention, one gets in the habit of checking the store daily, seeing all kinds of newly released shiney tings one just must have. Next thing you know, end of the month, you've spent far more than you planned. It doesn't seem like that much when you check out with only $5-$15 in your cart. Until you add up how many times you did that several times a week during the month. Ouch!

Best thing that ever happened to me was when DAZ stopped supporting Poser. I remember that every time I drive my Prius c.

Short term, DAZ could well see "acquiring" the HiveWire animals as a major coup. No question it will increase sales and bring more money into the DAZ coffers. HiveWire's Big Cat, House Cat, and Horse product lines are rather substantial ... besides being fantastic quality products. Who wouldn't consider the HiveWire animals a major coup? And from what I see in the store, DAZ doesn't really have anything to compare to the HiveWire animals.

 

[Hornet3d]

I still have a bad taste since the RDNA thing. Too bad I don't shop at Daz since I like all those animals that is coming. Oh well. Can't have it all I guess.

That is one of my concerns, in that, by getting more customers you lose some along the way. While I do shop at Daz I do understand you position as I would have the same feeling if the move was to Renderosity rather thnn Daz. The reasons as to why I don't shop there may be different but the sentiment is the same.

 

[Hornet3d]

I've wrestled with HW's announcement for a couple months now, and found surprisingly that 4 years hasn't dulled the pain of some all the wounds that caused my initial departure from DAZ. I also weighed in on my responsibility as HW's first and cornerstone CA.

So, everything of mine is staying at HiveWire3D (for now). When, and if, the Horse moves, it might make sense to move my horse wings and racing tack with the horse, but they'll be available at HW first.

I can see that moving some of your horse related products might be a move that makes sense but I am glad they will be here first. I would be less worried about this development if the animals were still available here so we as customers could support Hivewire directly. It would also allow those that have supported Hivewire and have a dislike for Daz, for whatever reason, to continue to buy the animal products.

 

[Hornet3d]

Much as it's been difficult to see any real movement toward supporting Poser and Poser customers again ... it is possible this is another attempt by DAZ to regain Poser customers. That was supposedly one of the reasons DAZ absorbed RDNA ... though I'm not sure DAZ ever actually stated that. But, we do keep hearing that DAZ wants to support Poser and Poser users. However, since it's so hard to find Poser products in the DAZ store, it's hard to see whether acquiring RDNA resulted in more Poser support. Or ... if it just removed a competitor from the market.

I'm not sure we (Poser customers) were that big a loss for DAZ. I mean depending on who is talking, Poser is dead and Poser users non existent. But DAZ did just let go a rather significant amount of staff and PAs, so it's possible they are feeling a financial pinch. Reacquiring even a small portion of Poser customers could well result in a decent increase in sales. DAZ has always been rather good at marketing ... and those constant sales get a bit difficult to resist. Not to mention, one gets in the habit of checking the store daily, seeing all kinds of newly released shiney tings one just must have. Next thing you know, end of the month, you've spent far more than you planned. It doesn't seem like that much when you check out with only $5-$15 in your cart. Until you add up how many times you did that several times a week during the month. Ouch!

Best thing that ever happened to me was when DAZ stopped supporting Poser. I remember that every time I drive my Prius c.

Short term, DAZ could well see "acquiring" the HiveWire animals as a major coup. No question it will increase sales and bring more money into the DAZ coffers. HiveWire's Big Cat, House Cat, and Horse product lines are rather substantial ... besides being fantastic quality products. Who wouldn't consider the HiveWire animals a major coup? And from what I see in the store, DAZ doesn't really have anything to compare to the HiveWire animals.

One of the points I have been trying to make over at Renderosity for a long time is that, by ignoring Poser to a degree, they lose custom. Every security breach they have loses customers. They have lost my $1200 + a year but I accept that this will have little impact on them. What I find harder to accept is that owners are not interested in making the most profit possible. It may be that Renderosity, Daz and many other companies can afford to loose regular customers and still make a profit buy why would you give up on customers who otherwise would want to give you their money and boost those profits.

 

[Glitterati3D]

I've wrestled with HW's announcement for a couple months now, and found surprisingly that 4 years hasn't dulled the pain of some all the wounds that caused my initial departure from DAZ. I also weighed in on my responsibility as HW's first and cornerstone CA.

So, everything of mine is staying at HiveWire3D (for now). When, and if, the Horse moves, it might make sense to move my horse wings and racing tack with the horse, but they'll be available at HW first.

Thanks, Ken. I hope you stay right here. I can't imagine the pain you were put through and wouldn't expect the wounds to heal this soon.

I do have one request though.....could you please convert the Bird in The Hand poses for Dawn/Dusk/Luna? Every time I see them, I think now why don't I own these poses? And then I notice they are for the DAZ Gen4 figures........

 

[eclark1894]

Personally I see this as a positive move, I feel that the products will get a whole shed load of new supporting products; hopefully fur will be one of them; and lots more morphs and breeds. Daz has a lot of very talented creators hopefully thi will encourage them to support the animals and also provide Poser support; as long as the Poser users support that effort then you may find them returning more to supporting Poser.

I don't know about a "positive move, but as Poser users can buy the animals here, they have no real incentive to go to DAZ just for that. DAZ is kind of a "store of last resort" place for me these days. Besides, I don't hate DAZ, I'm just not in love with the people who run it.

 

[daywalker03]

One of the points I have been trying to make over at Renderosity for a long time is that, by ignoring Poser to a degree, they lose custom. Every security breach they have loses customers. They have lost my $1200 + a year but I accept that this will have little impact on them. What I find harder to accept is that owners are not interested in making the most profit possible. It may be that Renderosity, Daz and many other companies can afford to loose regular customers and still make a profit buy why would you give up on customers who otherwise would want to give you their money and boost those profits.

It's not as simple as you think. Many newer PAs (CAs here) have never used Poser, and don't have a way to make quality materials and settings for that software. And, Poser's developers have not added support for the weight mapping used in Genesis 3 (I know there is a script over on Renderosity that enables import of the G3 figures to Poser, but I don't know exactly how it handles this part) so there is no incentive for DAZ3D to encourage PAs to support it. Plus, many don't see the amount of work that would be needed to support 2 (or 4) render engines as being worth it financially, as fewer and fewer people use particular render engines and the number of sales needed to offset the time invested often doesn't increase to match.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Thank you, Ken. I too will be glad your horse products will be sold here first.

Earl, once the HiveWire animals are in the DAZ store, they will no longer be available here.

Like Hornet, I'd be less worried if the HiveWire animals were still available here too. The exclusivity requirement, more than not allowing HiveWire to sell as HiveWire, bothers me. That's the big red flag to me. I also much prefer to support HiveWire directly than through a company I don't want to support.

But again, HiveWire can pull the HiveWire animals out of the DAZ store and bring them back home should this agreement prove counterproductive for HiveWire. In the meantime ... customers will discover this mysterious HW3D is none other but ... HiveWire 3D. Home of the Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna, etc., line of products.

I'm simply an ex-customer, so my dealings with DAZ was from the standpoint of not being able to find quality current content for Poser ... despite hours of searching through their products.

I'm not a fan of skimp ware, though I have purchased it in the past. It just got old. Sure, I could find Poser content ... as long as I shopped the back of the store pages. You know. Stuff that was released like six or more years ago. As long as I was happy shopping old content ... that I hadn't been interested in when it was new, then yeah. DAZ had a boatload of content I could buy. It doesn't look to have changed all that much since Genesis was first released.

Without a Poser filter, you simply cannot easily find Poser content. I went through several pages at the DAZ store this morning, checking products. Yeah. No joy. It was all DS 4.9. Either there needs to be a label on the store thumbnail indicating it's a Poser product, or there needs to be a filter to exclude DS only content. I'm not spending hours shopping at DAZ in the hope to find something I can use. To be honest, any store that sells both Poser and DS content should have a software filter.

Granted, to find the HiveWire animals, one can use the vendor filter for HW3D. But that won't bring up any product that is created by a DAZ PA for a HiveWire Animal. Bottom line. If you can't find it. It doesn't exist. Which then means we won't buy those products, which will lead the DAZ PAs to assume no one wants to buy Poser content, so ... yet another reason why they won't/can't support Poser.


Edit. To be clear, I was looking through the Animal category. I wouldn't expect to be able to find any products in the People/Wearables category for Poser.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Thank you, Ken. I too will be glad your horse products will be sold here first.

Earl, once the HiveWire animals are in the DAZ store, they will no longer be available here.

Like Hornet, I'd be less worried if the HiveWire animals were still available here too. The exclusivity requirement, more than not allowing HiveWire to sell as HiveWire, bothers me. That's the big red flag to me. I also much prefer to support HiveWire directly than through a company I don't want to support.

But again, HiveWire can pull the HiveWire animals out of the DAZ store and bring them back home should this agreement prove counterproductive for HiveWire. In the meantime ... customers will discover this mysterious HW3D is none other but ... HiveWire 3D. Home of the Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna, etc., line of products.

I'm simply an ex-customer, so my dealings with DAZ was from the standpoint of not being able to find quality current content for Poser ... despite hours of searching through their products.

I'm not a fan of skimp ware, though I have purchased it in the past. It just got old. Sure, I could find Poser content ... as long as I shopped the back of the store pages. You know. Stuff that was released like six or more years ago. As long as I was happy shopping old content ... that I hadn't been interested in when it was new, then yeah. DAZ had a boatload of content I could buy. It doesn't look to have changed all that much since Genesis was first released.

Without a Poser filter, you simply cannot easily find Poser content. I went through several pages at the DAZ store this morning, checking products. Yeah. No joy. It was all DS 4.9. Either there needs to be a label on the store thumbnail indicating it's a Poser product, or there needs to be a filter to exclude DS only content. I'm not spending hours shopping at DAZ in the hope to find something I can use. To be honest, any store that sells both Poser and DS content should have a software filter.

Granted, to find the HiveWire animals, one can use the vendor filter for HW3D. But that won't bring up any product that is created by a DAZ PA for a HiveWire Animal. Bottom line. If you can't find it. It doesn't exist. Which then means we won't buy those products, which will lead the DAZ PAs to assume no one wants to buy Poser content, so ... yet another reason why they won't/can't support Poser.


Edit. To be clear, I was looking through the Animal category. I wouldn't expect to be able to find any products in the People/Wearables category for Poser.

Yeah, Satira, the exclusivity agreement troubles me as well.

And, to add to your point - DAZ recently had a sale "like a PC+ member" or something like that. I went paging through the products to see if I could find something I wanted. I had to page through to Page 19 to find a Poser compatible product.

I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of time to waste going through products I can't even use.

I support the vendors at DAZ who still create Poser products - flipmode, Jack Tomalin - but they are simply too few and far between to waste my time in the store.

 

[Alisa]

Wow - I go to sleep for a bit and come back to all kinds of interesting things - you guys are awesome! I'm happy (and I know the rest of the team is) that you feel comfortable in sharing your conflicted thoughts and concerns, which we definitely understand.

I am thinking of this as another venue for our products, though the animals will be exclusive at DAZ and that we'll be selling under HW3D. I'm not sure if ANY products sold at DAZ (looking as a customer there) are allowed to be sold elsewhere. I don't know of any that are. Not everyone sells exclusively there, but what they DO sell there isn't sold at any other stores, as far as I've ever seen.

Yes, this is very different than with RDNA - DAZ purchased them. They are not purchasing HiveWire, we will simply be vendors there under the HW3D (I know I've often abbreviated HiveWire 3D to HW3D - as evidenced below my avatar ) name. FYI, Syyd, while she is no longer a DAZ employee, is still a PA there.

If people have purchased animal products through the HiveWire3D store that are going to be moved, will those products still be downloadable from their HiveWire store account after the move?

Absolutely. They'll be updated with the new versions as soon as those are available and we get copies (important to all of you because Laurie is updating both Poser and DAZ Studio materials and some texture maps on some of the products). I'll announce those in the product update thread here. EVERYTHING people purchasing at DAZ gets will be available to those who purchased the Big Cat, House Cat and Horse lines here.

Then again ... perhaps there is a huge contingent of people who only shop at DAZ and are entirely unaware other stores exist. Is that possible?!?

It is. I think many of us forget that a lot of people buy things and don't come to forums or shop around.

Clearly, from what I have already said, I am very much in the same camp as you. I can see how this would help Hivewire3D, good as the animal figures are, I cannot see what Daz gets from this, certainly not in the short term. It really bothers me what Daz's long term plan is.

What they get is some awesome new products for their store in both Poser and DS format, maybe attracting some Poser users to buy some products there, and of course, part of the profit . So promoting and selling our animals helps THEIR bottom line as well as ours. No one can say what their long term plan is, of course, but as noted, HiveWire owns the products.

4) Does this mean we might get more support for the human figures from HW?

I know for sure that supporting our human figures is very important to Chris & Lisa. I know Chris is working on a few things right now, some of which he's got in WIP threads.

I'm happy for Hivewire to have another outlet for these astonishing products. I can't say I'm not stunned over this development, though.

Thanks, and LOL, you're not alone in being stunned

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I don't have that kind of time either, Glitter!

 

[Hornet3d]

It's not as simple as you think. Many newer PAs (CAs here) have never used Poser, and don't have a way to make quality materials and settings for that software. And, Poser's developers have not added support for the weight mapping used in Genesis 3 (I know there is a script over on Renderosity that enables import of the G3 figures to Poser, but I don't know exactly how it handles this part) so there is no incentive for DAZ3D to encourage PAs to support it. Plus, many don't see the amount of work that would be needed to support 2 (or 4) render engines as being worth it financially, as fewer and fewer people use particular render engines and the number of sales needed to offset the time invested often doesn't increase to match.

To a degree I accept the point you make, particularly when discussing figures but that makes this move look all the more confusing from Daz's Point of view. It also overlooks the fact that some of the vendors used to do Poser and are more into scenes than figures, clearly they know how to do quality materials but they too have abandoned Poser, some still support Poser and they are the ones I buy from. I am not arguing that this wrong in any way I just feel they are losing sales in some, not all instances, and that will result in a loss in potential profits.

Renderosity has done the same they keep saying they cannot tell vendors what to make their in house team has abandoned Poser. They also appear equally laid back when it comes to credit card security and that is losing them sales. It may not bankrupt them but they are down on the profits they could make. Last time I looked they were not a registered charity so I would expect the drive for maximum profits to be at the heart of the business.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Hey ... Alisa. Get some coffee then edit your post!

Edit ... the quotes are messed up.

 

[Alisa]

Hey ... Alisa. Get some coffee then edit your post!

LOL, I already did and I haven't even HAD my coffee yet

Hopefully Poser only users will do as some of you do and specifically look for HW3D products because they do have stand alone Poser and DS versions. It would be nice to have a Poser filter for folks who use only Poser. I've been sad to see some vendors there switch to DS only, even though I use both programs, just because I like to have options. But having just a glimpse into the level of work it is to create for Poser and DAZ Studio and now FOUR render engines, I can understand why some DAZ PAshave gone that route, and why some of our CAs here only create for one or the other.

 

[Hornet3d]

I don't have that kind of time either, Glitter!

Yeah, Satira, the exclusivity agreement troubles me as well.

And, to add to your point - DAZ recently had a sale "like a PC+ member" or something like that. I went paging through the products to see if I could find something I wanted. I had to page through to Page 19 to find a Poser compatible product.

I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of time to waste going through products I can't even use.

I support the vendors at DAZ who still create Poser products - flipmode, Jack Tomalin - but they are simply too few and far between to waste my time in the store.

I go there at least once a month, usually after pay day. I then do a search on Poser and look to see if there is anything on sale often there is not but I have made some good purchases. This past week I picked up six items, one from Forbidden Whispers, three from Jack Tomalin and two from Petipet, all 60% off. It could be another two or three months before I see something I like on sale but I still find it worth the effort.

 

[Hornet3d]

Wow - I go to sleep for a bit and come back to all kinds of interesting things - you guys are awesome! I'm happy (and I know the rest of the team is) that you feel comfortable in sharing your conflicted thoughts and concerns, which we definitely understand.


What they get is some awesome new products for their store in both Poser and DS format, maybe attracting some Poser users to buy some products there, and of course, part of the profit . So promoting and selling our animals helps THEIR bottom line as well as ours. No one can say what their long term plan is, of course, but as noted, HiveWire owns the products.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I totally accept they are getting some great figures and that it will help their bottom line, Hivewire will loose on each sale but that could well be compensated by more sales. I just find it at odds with the stance that they can do without Poser customers, they may never have never stated but action soften speak louder than words. The same was said with the RDNA takeover but I see no evidence that it improved the situation for Poser users and lots of evidence it just removed a load of content that was otherwise available to them. DS users will clearly benefit I am just no so sure Poser users will in the long run but, despite my concerns, I will try and keep an open mind.

 

[Chris]

just don't mention it on Daz forums else get 1984'd

Funny. Yeah, I heard about that one.

 

[Hornet3d]

LOL, I already did and I haven't even HAD my coffee yet

Hopefully Poser only users will do as some of you do and specifically look for HW3D products because they do have stand alone Poser and DS versions. It would be nice to have a Poser filter for folks who use only Poser. I've been sad to see some vendors there switch to DS only, even though I use both programs, just because I like to have options. But having just a glimpse into the level of work it is to create for Poser and DAZ Studio and now FOUR render engines, I can understand why some DAZ PAshave gone that route, and why some of our CAs here only create for one or the other.

You can do a store search on Poser but it does not help much, last week I did a search on Poser and then picked the '3D models and assets' ( as I don't use Genesis I am not interested in people a wearables) but even that gave a list of 990 products. Oh and before anyone shouts that is a lot of products for a company that people claim does not support poser some go back many years, and I mean many. I know that Petipet still supports Poser so I look the Petipet store on a regular basis. Hopefully the same will become the norm for HW3D, I will certainly be popping in there each time I visit Daz in future.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Thanks Alisa. I haven't had my morning chai yet (and have been awake since 3:30 am), so it took me a few minutes to figure out your replies were hidden within the quotes.

It doesn't help that Tsuki is STILL being a pain. I guess it really upset her yesterday that she couldn't get to the neighbor on his balcony. Really UNCOOL of her that I am not enough! I clean her litter box. Feed her. Brush her (when she will stay still long enough), snuggle with her when I'm at the computer (which is the only time she wants to snuggle), turn on the faucet in the bathroom sink every time I go in there so she can drink running water (even though I provide her a water fountain), share my yogurt with her (turns out she absolutely loves yogurt), as well as cantaloupe and tuna (tuna I figured ... cantaloupe was a surprise). AND STILL she cries when there is some guy out on his balcony!

As if ... I'm a piece of liver!


Ok ... the 1984 reference stumps me. What's that about?!? Or is it a reference to posts being pulled without explanation (which happened to me several times when I dared utter the name Dawn) and Orwell's 1984?