Official Announcement: DAZ terminates agreement to publish HiveWire 3D animals!

[Hornet3d]

Maybe, but I think the response was a little over the top. I think both sides need to refrain from saying stupid stuff.

Don't get me wrong I think your advice to let it go is a good suggestion for anyone who may be taking sides it achieves nothing. Problem is, when someone is upset asking them to let it go is not always best received even if it is good advice.

Looking on the positive I think at lot of people have taken and deep breath and moved away from what for Hivewire was quite a spat but for most other places would not have raised and eyebrow.

 

[Alisa]

Nice, Hornet!

oops, Earl, you're right - was looking at your reply, it was KageRyu's post; So I've just amended that to "KageRyu and Earl, respectfully, can you see how the post about having to throw DAZ Studio into a fire to get rid of it, and the fact that it's done by a Poser user, MIGHT be interpreted as not a joke, but a dig at DAZ Studio? "

Traci & Earl, I completely realize Kage was making a joke and that he had NO intention of being insulting. He was being funny and clever. At the same time, I also see why a DAZ Studio user might perceive it as a slam on DS.

I know and like both Kage & tparo - they are BOTH great people, and both very valued members of our community (not to mention that she is on the QAV team and he's a CA here, so they both have additonal important roles at HiveWire).

This is something that can hopefully help people realize that when you have people with strong beliefs on both sides, things you mean to be funny, and think are funny, just aren't to those on the other side of the issue. They may come across as insulting, instead. And so, that person may react strongly and whoops, now we have an unpleasant "DS vs Poser" fight...UGH!

I had the same thing happen with a friend who has completely different political beliefs than hubby & I, and a "greeting card" they have on their refrigerator. Early in our friendship, he showed it to us, with the best intent (not knowing or thinking about the fact that they are rather more politically conservative than we are), laughing about how hysterically funny it was. Suffice it to say, we didn't find it the LEAST bit funny agree, but rather, we found it insulting.

I laugh at Political cartoons that others would find very very insulting if they're on the "other side".

The point is that we are wanting this to be a place where both sides of the Poser & DS community feel comfortable.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[daywalker03]

You know, though, Alisa, I have to step in here and say it was clearly a JOKE.

And, frankly, that's the problem - where the DS/Poser discussion is concerned, it's a one way street. DS users can make all kinds of claims about Poser and Poser users, no matter how insulting and demeaning and no one corrects that language.

That behavior has cost HW figures dearly. Just the other day, I saw another tired post about Dawn's quarterback shoulders. These myths perpetuate because anyone who even attempts to correct them end up banned from a forum.

Oh, I don't know about that; it seems the same folks that complain about Dawn's shoulders are the crop of folks on the DAZ3D forums that are deriding Victoria 8/Olympia 8 as "too masculine" and more or less insinuating there are no real life women that look like that.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Oh, I don't know about that; it seems the same folks that complain about Dawn's shoulders are the crop of folks on the DAZ3D forums that are deriding Victoria 8/Olympia 8 as "too masculine" and more or less insinuating there are no real life women that look like that.

That may be, but since I am a Poser user, I don't see those posts generally. And this post was on the official Poser forum by a Poser user. My point is that these kinds of statements, like DS users who think Dawn doesn't work in Poser, perpetuate because people repeat them without direct knowledge. And others repeat them maliciously to deter use of products not sold at DAZ.

That was just one example. There are many, many others - like DAZ vendors who go on Poser forums to gleefully dance on the grave of Poser anytime a poor earnings statement is issued.

 

[theschell]

When a company, any company, by its actions shows an attitude of maliciousness and misinformation can we expect its supporters to do any different? I'd have to say over-all though that what's happened with attitudes in our online community is a direct spill-over from attitudes on the street. We live in an era where people actively seek things to be offended over, and where anything can be taken not only as a personal insult, but used as an excuse for claims of discrimination and injustice. We also live in an era that focuses on instant gratification, where the common belief is that things are owed from the day we're born, rather than earned by hard work. It's also an age where, for what-ever reason, people have decided that their personal rights over-ride the rights of everyone around them, and where respect must be given but not returned... Honestly I think that in general we're in a sad state of affairs these days... I mean seriously, now days we need "safe places" for people to go when life issues get to hard to handle, so that people can hide from life rather than learning to deal with things and just moving on. Back when I was younger if life got hard we were taught to deal with it and move on, we were taught that you had to earn the rights and respect you get, and that nothing in life comes free...

 

[eclark1894]

I started the day out on such a high note...
Now I just wanna crawl back in bed.

 

[Glitterati3D]

When a company, any company, by its actions shows an attitude of maliciousness and misinformation can we expect it's supporters to do any different? I'd have to say over-all though that what's happened with attitudes in our online community is a direct spill-over from attitudes on the street. We live in an era where people actively seek things to be offended over, and where anything can be taken not only as a personal insult, but used as an excuse for claims of discrimination and injustice. We also live in an era that focuses on instant gratification, where the common belief is that things are owed from the day we're born, rather than earned by hard work. It's also an age where, for what-ever reason, people have decided that their personal rights over-ride the rights of everyone around them, and where respect must be given but not returned... Honestly I think that in general we're in a sad state of affairs these days...

I think that's an awfully broad brush. While there are people like you describe, I find that generally folks are caring and kind. Like the escaped cow we had running all over the county last week with the entire sheriff's department in hot pursuit of the cow. The community came together trying to help the sheriff and the cow so nothing bad happened to anyone. Folks were posting on Facebook and calling dispatch to report cow sightings to help the sheriff, and the sheriff posted his department's progress. People didn't want the cow to cause a wreck (she was walking down a 6 lane freeway!) nor did they want the cow to get hurt. They cared enough to get involved and try to help any way they could.

It took about 16 hours to catch the cow, BTW.

 

[theschell]

I also think it's a darned shame that being online has become an acceptable excuse for the worst sorts of behavior. The anonymity of being "online" has allowed people to act in ways that on the street would result in getting a whooping and possibly arrested, but that behavior here on the internet is justified by the right to free speech, and the claim that this is the way the 'net is supposed to be and always has been...

 

[theschell]

I think that's an awfully broad brush. While there are people like you describe, I find that generally folks are caring and kind. Like the escaped cow we had running all over the county last week with the entire sheriff's department in hot pursuit of the cow. The community came together trying to help the sheriff and the cow so nothing bad happened to anyone. Folks were posting on Facebook and calling dispatch to report cow sightings to help the sheriff, and the sheriff posted his department's progress. People didn't want the cow to cause a wreck (she was walking down a 6 lane freeway!) nor did they want the cow to get hurt. They cared enough to get involved and try to help any way they could.

It took about 16 hours to catch the cow, BTW.

True, but when they need to run ads on TV about being kind to one another there's obviously an issue... and no I'm not kidding, they've had to run TV ads encouraging people to be kind and help each other out... lol

I saw your post about the cow elsewhere... and was laughing my backside off... I was raised in the country and remember having to try and wrangle escaped animals back where they belonged... It would make a great scene to make a render of!

 

[Glitterati3D]

True, but when they need to run ads on TV about being kind to one another there's obviously an issue... and no I'm not kidding, they've had to run TV ads encouraging people to be kind and help each other out... lol

I saw your post about the cow elsewhere... and was laughing my backside off... I was raised in the country and remember having to try and wrangle escaped animals back where they belonged... It would make a great scene to make a render of!

Actually, I do think we need to be reminded to be kind to one another occasionally. We all get so tied up in our own lives, we sometimes forget to stop and smell the roses.

The cow escapade was actually hysterical - evidently the sheriff is quite the comedienne! His Facebook posts kept everyone rolling on the floor laughing.

I don't know if its just here locally, but I do see a lot of kindness in this community. Simple things like at the drivethrough at McDonalds or Starbucks where someone "pays it forward" by paying for the order behind him, then that customer pays for the order behind him. It happens a lot here. Or the Facebook post I saw yesterday from the person at the grocery store who went for his debit card and realized he left it in the car. Ran out to get the card, and by the time he got back to the door, the person behind him handed him his groceries and said don't worry about it - I got it for you. And, lots and lots of posts saying "if anyone knows <insert name>, I found his debit card in the parking lot and turned it in to his bank."

 

[mininessie]

well....i finally have the house cat and kitten...now figthing with LAHM LOL!

 

[theschell]

The other fun part was trying to wrangle animals out from where they didn't belong... I grew up on a farm in the bush up north and we kept having to chase deer out of the pastures and away from the salt-licks and feed for the horses. I think though my funniest personal experience with wildlife was when I was working. I was assigned for after-hours security in a school that was rented for community activities. One day I got a call from my boss on a day off... the alarms were going off at the school and he wanted me to look into it as I lived near by. When I got to the school and investigated, I found that a deer had gotten into the staff room through an opened ground floor window, and was happily lunching on the bowl of fruit the staff had left out... The poor deer couldn't get back through the window he'd gotten in through... and I had to call animal control to come and get the poor thing... lol

 

[Alisa]

Congrats, mininessie! We have some instructions in the ReadMe for the store version of the preset that'll hopefully help!

That's nice stuff, Traci! And funny about the deer, theschell!

I agree with both of you.

There is a lot of amazing kindness, online and offline, and a lot that's not.

I think many people (not all, not even most - hopefully), see the anonymity as an excuse to say and do things that they'd NEVER say in person...even if it's not criminal, but just insulting.

Also, something that important to take into consideration is that there are no visual clues on the net or tones of voice.

If I say, in real life" Wow, that's really nice", depending on my tone and where I put my emphasis, I could be saying something IS nice or that it's NOT nice, right? And if I'm smiling or looking ticked off, those are more clues. Emoticons help, online, but there's not a replacement.

 

[theschell]

What made the whole situation with the deer so astounding was that the school I was dealing with was dead smack in the middle of a city of 120,000... not exactly a place you'd expect to find a deer eating lunch in a school staff-room... it took me almost a half hour to convince the animal control guys I was being serious! lol

 

[esha]

I agree on the kindness, it still does exist. Unfortunately it doesn't often make it into web forums...
I think a good tactics would be to think: "If the same thing was said about the person/software/company I happen to like, would I feel offended by it?" If yes, then don't post it.

I've been following this thread on and off for some time now, have started to reply several times and then discarded it, but now I have reached the point where I really want to make a comment.
I do think that HW in general are indeed open to and for everyone, but I have the impression that there are a handful of users who have such a passionate dislike towards one software/company that they - perhaps unintentionally - create an atmosphere that feels uncomfortable to users, customers and business partners of said company. Nice affirmations about everyone being welcome don't help to disspel that impression...

I can only talk for myself, of course, and my impression naturally is subjective, but I feel that my opinions may be tolerated here (because that's the politically correct thing to do, with free speech and all), but not really welcome or even appreciated, because of the software I use and the shop where I sell most of my stuff.
I see a lot of people complaining about X being bashed, but not protesting in any way, even cheering along, when the bashing goes against Y. (For X and Y, insert company or software names of your choice, whatever fits in your case )
The silent consensus, as I read it out of this thread, seems to be that bashing is ok as long as it goes against the "right" side. If someone complains about it, they're just told to "let it go" - implying that the complainant should get a thicker skin and not disrupt the nice discussion, basically blaming them for introducing negativity while they were only pointing it out. From other comments I gathered that this was the treatment that offended people so much at a certain other site...?
In a really open, friendly and welcoming environment no bashing would be happening, against nobody and nothing.

Actually, to "let it go" is great advice, if it were applied by both "sides". So I'll follow that advice and end my musings here. I have no hard feelings against anyone or anything, and I hope I haven't offended anybody with my sincerity, just wanted to offer some insights from my point of view

 

[Alisa]

I think a good tactics would be to think: "If the same thing was said about the person/software/company I happen to like, would I feel offended by it?" If yes, then don't post it.

How does that saying go?

Winner Winner Turkey Dinner!!!

Can we just quote this at the top of each page of every 3D forum? Heck, EVERY forum !

You and your thoughts are definitely welcomed here (and I hope more than just tolerated, by everyone), no matter WHERE you sell the bulk of your products or what software you generally create in. I hope hope hope that everyone here will heed the words you said above.

I know it's been said, but this is an unusually heated thread for our forums.

 

[Alisa]

Wanted to add, that telling someone "just get a thicker skin" or other putdowns like "get over it", "you're just a whiner" are not nice, helpful, or productive things to say. It's important to think of people's feelings.

I think Lisa addressed this earlier. You can be upset at a situation, you can be upset by a person's or company's behavior, but expressing that isn't the same as attacking the person or company itself.

 

[carmen indorato]

I also think it's a darned shame that being online has become an acceptable excuse for the worst sorts of behavior. The anonymity of being "online" has allowed people to act in ways that on the street would result in getting a whooping and possibly arrested, but that behavior here on the internet is justified by the right to free speech, and the claim that this is the way the 'net is supposed to be and always has been...

So.........how exactly has this...this whole back and forth discourse...really changed from the olden days of forum bashing and troll expulsion? We gotta lear to let go and not work our collective "SELVES" into a frothing rage.Let it go?

 

[theschell]

As far as it goes, my take from this whole thread has been that not much actual "bashing" has been occurring. It's been quite civil through-out compared to many threads of this nature that I've seen in other places, which is quite a surprise to be honest. Mostly it seems (at least to me) as people just venting about the frustrations they've been feeling about the situation with Hivewire/DAZ specifically, and with the changes in the community that they have been dissatisfied with in relation to DAZ as a whole. Here in these forums at least they've also been kind enough to allow that venting which is a bit of a refreshing change in some ways...

 

[LisaB]

So.........how exactly has this...this whole back and forth discourse...really changed from the olden days of forum bashing and troll expulsion? We gotta lear to let go and not work our collective "SELVES" into a frothing rage.Let it go?

Well, I don't see frothing rage in this thread. I see people having discussions about perspective.

There have so many great points made here, today.

@esha, well said.

I have more to say but am in the middle of something. Will be back later.

Oh, yeah, I do have one thing.

What would happen if we eliminated the need to choose a "side"? What if there were no "sides" to choose from?