New all-star Poser-only figure released!

[carmen indorato]

I suppose the bottom line is that the Poser/DS market is made of low budget hobbyists, and this public has been trained only to buy from sales. It's the same public that has consistently bashed any attempts of creating new Poser figures for the last decade. It's like the Poser community is its own worst enemy. They don't buy from Poser vendors, while asking them to make more contents. They claim they will never pay full price for anything - I've seen this attitude at the forums. They keep saying that Poser is doomed, making it look like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Personally, I would had left Poser/DS if HW didn't show up back in 2013. I had my hopes renewed when I first saw Dawn, even before she was released. One could think the Poser community would come straight to support Dawn, but what actually happened was more internal (and external) fighting and discord that persists to this date. Many still refuse to leave V4 behind. As a matter of fact, there is still a number of new V4 contents being released every month. Some others are still clinging for the next Poser figure, as if Dawn had never existed.

The Poser community is not one, but a series of isolated clusters that refuse to talk to each other. Each cluster is supporting another figure, like V4, Pauline, PE, Dawn and now LF. In many cases, people isolate themselves with a figure, and any mention of another can start a war. Conversely, I have renders of a wide variety of figures in my gallery at DA, using Poser, DS, Carrara, Vue, 3DSMAX, and more recently, iClone. Part of the fun was to bring Poser and DS figures into iClone using the new CC3 Transformer.

I have TONS of fun playing with different figures and programs. But for the rest of the Poser community, it's like in the Highlander movies - there can only be one. This keeps the Poser community divided, and as such, it's self-defeating. I really thought HW would reunite the community, but I was just being naive. I forgot there was also the corporate bickering over the fence. That has proven to be a much bigger issue than all of the above.

I started this thread because I wanted to support LF, just as I have supported Pauline and PE when they were released. My main figure is still Dawn, but I have all these other figures in my runtime, and I am Ok with that. I just wonder if one day it will be Ok for the rest of the Poser community as well. They claim to want more native Poser contents, but when we make them, they won't buy it. That takes me back to the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Have a lot of old figures for Poser i no longer use. I supported them but did not invest in them so heavily because they were never really supported beyond out of the box functionality which always falls short in my opinion. I stopped using them because either they were not made as well as V2 was (for her day) or V4. Also they were not supported like V2/V3/V4 have been so there was no longevity. Huge investments like someone like me who can not create their own content or who no longer have the gray matter to learn new apps make it more difficult to migrate to new figures and apps like you do. I would like to use Dawn or any of the new figures but just don't want to reinvest in new stuff or tackle new learning curves. I don't bash the other figures I just don't use them. TO get Dawn for instance to give me the same images I have gotten used to creating with a heavily morphed V4 for instance, is impossible. So why try?

I guess it comes down to what kind of images do you want to create and finding the figure that best helps you fulfill that objective.
But, I agree it unfortunate seeing all the product bashing wars over the differences/preferences is stupid.

 

[Hornet3d]

Just curious would you all agree that the majority of users of Poser and D/S are more than not Amateur users? As an Amateur user who sits and spins dials and hits the render dials for a final image who among us amateurs really gives a hooter about topology as opposed to .....whatever.......and I am not bashing or trying to start a war here I am just saying how many know the difference to matte. For the most part I think we just want to get easy and simple images and the figures that can do that for us are the ones we buy.
I have been using Poser since v.4 and NEVER learned D/S. I regret that because the best figures I see out there now are from DAZ and for D/S....for the type of images I want to create by simply sitting and dial spinning. Don't know anything about topology and all that though I wish I did, I just buy stuff that looks like it will give me those image I want to create and cry not being able to buy figures that don't work in the app I want work in: Poser. Minimum investment for the bang I aim for. And I think a lot of users of both apps think the same way. Maybe that is why both these apps were originally created for the hobyist picture maker and not advanced 3d Artists.
But, what do I know?!

From my limited view of the hobby I would agree that most DS and Poser users are hobbyists but that is not to say that they are not used for some commercial projects and illustrations. I remember seeing one outfit used for the promotion of a graphics card some years back, it was the very distinctive Complicated EVE by Uzilite and was used by one of the big two graphic card manufacturer so it is used commercially. In the main though I suspect the majority of users are essentially using the software as a hobby and for many a means of being able to get the pictures from their imagination into a form others can see.

For a large part I think you could also correlate hobbyists to users with limited funds and so to some degree this places limitations on just what art they can produce. This is not restricted to content though as I know my scenes have become more complex only since I was lucky enough to be able to afford computer with a great deal of computing power. Before then I used to have to go very careful with the number of figures and props used in a scene if I wanted to produce a render that would complete overnight.

Having said all that the term hobbyist is a very general term and it only tells part of the story, some users focus on pin ups, others on different themes while yet more are illustrating a book, real or imagined. Even within these sub groups there are other passions that drive their hobby, for instance, no matter how great the figures that are available are there will always be those that will desire something new, or the latest or greatest. For me the drive is very different, I do try other figures but I need to see what each figure can do that is better than what I can do with my present figure. For me changing figures is a big task as I am trying to create a story with a main character so if I jump figures I have to go back a rebuild scenes with the new figure to keep the consistency.

For me, and some others, there is also an extra consideration. As I have already stated that I will not be using the new figure because I just do not shop at Renderosity. It could be the best figure ever by some margin but I would still not be using it and I know some will see that as extreme but my principle has always been to only spend my hard earned cash at places where I feel my custom is valued and that is a principle I am not prepared to forsake for my art.

So, yes I do think most users are hobbyists and that may give some indication of the funds they have available to the hobby but otherwise it tells us so little about the users. Even threads like this only let us see a glimpse of the users as the majority do not visit forums or are not very active. I think the best insight into the users are renders we see everyday and when I look at a render I try to decide if I like it and why and I have very limited interest in the figure used and even less to the software used to create it. If I look at a painting I like, I don't really wonder what make of paint was used or if it was mixed by the artist. I might look at that brushstroke but I am not going to question who made the brush and I really don't see why 3D art should be any different.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I may be experiencing cabin fever currently, and I know for sure I'm cranky because I'm cold. I was home with a migraine yesterday, and today stayed home because of the weather. After a coworker spent 3 hours this morning trying to get to work, he turned around and went back home. I didn't even attempt it! Not with my wee little car, especially when it's generally several days after a storm before the streets on my commute are plowed, and the sidewalks are generally still treacherous for several days between the parking garage and my office. After falling a few years ago and damaging my knee, I'm just not willing to risk another fall because of ice.

Do we have to rehash the DS/Poser, Genesis/V4 arguments again? Doesn't matter that Genesis 8 has almost half the amount of content that V4 has. Genesis 8 doesn't work in Poser. Genesis is of absolutely no use to Poser users. Our choice is with the Smith Micro figures, Dawn, V4, or one of the lesser supported independent figures like La Femme.

Silly me. I thought this discussion was about La Femme. But lo and behold. It seems to have once again been side tracked in an attempt to bring the light to the unfaithful.

I admit it. I've been unfaithful to V4! I committed a shameful sin in 2013 when I allowed Dawn into my runtime.

Even worse, I tossed V4 out of her home, and I told her to go find someone else to support her. I did the same to Genesis ... even though Genesis broke her promises to me. She required even more workarounds to get her semi functional in Poser than V4 and her clothing required when V4 did anything but stand there with her arms spread wide. But I was willing to give her? him? it? a chance. Until Genesis repeatedly broke my Poser library. At that point, I told Genesis to hit the road. Hopefully, both V4 and Genesis found each other and have been able to comfort each other out there in the cruel, cold, frozen world. Since, I kept their clothing. But since most of it is just the same skimpy thing rehashed a couple dozen? hundred? times, it mostly sits unused in my runtime. I just haven't felt a strong need to cloth Dawn in castoffs and used clothing. Not as long as anyone still breathes who is willing to create clothing for my beloved Dawn.

I also gave La Femme a chance. But, she wasn't anywhere near as much fun to experiment with as Dawn was. But I'll admit circumstances are different now. In 2013, DAZ had all but kicked V4 out into the cold themselves. While, HiveWire has no intention of abandoning Dawn. So ... it's not like I'm desperate for a shiney new ting that actually works in Poser and like ... bends.

Mmm ... the slow cooker smells sooo good. I guess I should have set the slow cooker to Low instead of High. Dinner is ready, and there are a few more hours till it's time to eat. (Though, I cheated there too and snagged a few of the potatoes and carrots out of the slow cooker for a late lunch.) It was yummy.

 

[Miss B]

Well said Satira. I really dislike when threads get sidetracked, but unfortunately, there's little that can be done about it. I've gotten so I just ignore those posts, and pick up with the next relevant post.

That said, I haven't totally given up on V4. True it's been a long time since I've used anything in my DS 3 Advanced Runtime (which content is 98% Poser compatible) within Poser, but I did the other day, specifically because I have a V4 character, Girl Next Door 4.2, which was created by Gabe/Blackhearted. I was curious enough to see how close she resembles La Femme, and her body shape is pretty close, as it's how most of his V4 characters look. Now I just have to see if any V4 outfits that work with GND will also work with La Femme. Since I don't model clothing as well as you do Satira, I don't mind my newer characters inheriting their older cousins clothing assuming, of course, it works.

I like La Femme, more so than Project Evolution, mostly because she's easier to use, and I like having "new" base characters show up now and then which can be used in Poser, but my DS 3 Advanced Runtime is my largest Runtime, and there's just too much content to give up on, so I use parts of it now and then.

 

[Ken1171]

Basically does a figure have to be basic to create for, to be accepted by the vendor base. Or will a more complex figure still be successful if the end user pool embraces it, which would drive content sales for creators even though they may be working harder.

I think it's neither. There will be people attracted to the "simpler" figure that is easy to use, and there will be others who want something more "advanced". This is why I have claimed that it's good for Poser to have more figures, so people can choose what they want. I am still not sure where LaFemme sits in this line up classification. Dawn is on one side being easy to use, and PE sits on the opposite side where sheer amounts of JCMs can be a blessing or a curse. Which one applies depends on what people want from the figure.

The better the figure poses, the higher the price to rig contents for it. The fact that V4 still lives and breathes in the stores is a sign that there is demand for the "simpler" and easy to use figure, even if she poses poorly. To these people, posing quality is not as important as ease of use. PE is an interesting case-study because she poses well, but rigging conforming contents becomes a JCM nightmare. She is confined to dynamic cloth, which is not for everyone. Many Poser users have avoided the Cloth Room for years, and that would have to change if they want to adopt figures of that kind.

If LaFemme is as JCM-heavy as PE, she might end up in the same situation, but I don't really know at this point. LF has some really clever built-in system that allows toggling JCMs on and off straight from the figure dials (globally or by-dial), which will certainly please content creators. I don't remember another figure having this low-level control straight from the dials as LF has, so that is a differential. Another one is her V4-like default shape, which seems to please more people in general. PE has a very unique default body type that may not be as mainstream as V4. For this purpose, V4 is a good point of reference because her design has a known history of success.

Conversely, Dawn, V4 and PE have better topology than the grid-like LaFemme, which was a bit disappointing. I know the general public won't care or notice this issue, but content creators who make morphs will. When I've mentioned that Genesis 3/8 had simplified topology, at least they HAVE some topology going on there, while LaFemme has opted for the plain grid-like layout, meaning no usable topology to work with, which is unheard of in this day and age. This will be an interesting case-study for the future of figure-making. Can LaFemme get away with grid-like topology? Will rigging for her be as complex as it is with PE? We'll see.

 

[Ken1171]

Another issue I hear so many complaints about is that one of the issues with the Genesis figure series is the release schedule of figure updates is too fast, forcing people to buy new purchases for a new figure too regularly. Imo the back compatibility support with the Genesis series is pretty good, so I do tend to think the issue is somewhat unfounded, but it is an opinion held by quite a few users out there. Yet somehow when it comes to Poser it appears the more the merrier, it seems a contradiction tbh and I'm not sure it is having the positive effects on the market that you seem think it does.

I see no contradiction between Genesis being re-released every 2 years, and Poser having many different figures to choose from. The fast paced Genesis releases are the opposite of what made V4 popular. Maybe some people like it that way, but that's not what I've heard from my customers. One of the major complaints was that there was too much re-releasing of old products to fit the new Genesis. They claimed the market got saturated with re-releases instead of new products. I've heard that, but I don't really know, because I don't follow that market. Nonetheless, I can see a problem with people refusing to buy the same product for different versions of the same figure, especially when DS has Auto-Fit. Either some will buy the product again, and become resentful, or not buy them and be resentful all the same. On the vendors side, I can see how hard it must be to create new products for a figure that [they know] will be replaced every 2 years. Vendors are also aware that people will shun on product re-releases. That can be quite the confidence killer in the long run.

Conversely, the Poser community has been asking for new native figures for years, which is the opposite of complaining about having too many figures. And mind you, those are completely different figures from different artists. That is completely different from having many iterations of the same figure from the same company. I come from a time when Poser had a myriad of figures to choose from, and that was always seen as a good thing. Vendors will always go where the money is. The more figures, the more market opportunities. Back in 2004, I was supporting many Poser figures. When DAZ came in, I concentrated only on V4 for years to come. Then HW came up in 2013, and I dropped V4 to support Dawn. This is when I started supporting both Poser and DS in every product.

I have supported Pauline when she came out, though I didn't agree with the way she was designed. I have stopped following her development, so I don't know where it went. Now PE and LaFemme came in, and I have welcomed them both. VolpeBox and I tried to create a new outfit for PE, but rigging was impossible in a timely manner. If we couldn't finish in the planned time-frame, it wasn't worth making, so we dropped it. It was my 1st time ever dropping something, but we tried. PE is restricted to dynamic cloth. It is yet to be seen if LaFemme will be like that.

Now here's the thing - I am already stretching thin trying to support both Poser and DS, working in double but not being able to charge proportionally. If LaFemme rigging takes long to handle morph corrections on each and every JCM for every body morph, it might be impractical. It can be done, but it's not financially worth it.

In your post, you seem to be trying to guess how many customers will buy the products, or how many people would adopt a figure, but nobody knows such things. Like when big budget movies are made, the studios have no way to predict if it will be a success or another box office failure. They spend 300 million dollars and hope for the best. In the same way, the Poser/DS market is completely unpredictable. The fact that V4 didn't die in this day and age still baffles me, but at least I understand the reasons behind it.

It's curious that the newly created figures try to take advantage of the latest and greatest modern features Poser has to offer, but with that comes complexity some are not willing to deal with. For vendors, the time it takes to rig for such figures can be a factor. As the market prices keep going down, it is not worth making new contents that take increasingly longer times to complete. What I see here is a conflict of interests between those who make the figures, and those who use and support them. They fail to see why V4 was, and still is so popular and commercially successful. This becomes even more significant when the market prices keep dropping like this.

From where I stand, Dawn is still the sensible choice because she poses reasonably well, has very few JCMs, has a decent topology, so it's still viable for me to support her considering the nowadays market situation. Every detail in the way she was built was wisely chosen considering the factors I have listed above, and the history behind V4's success. Perhaps PE went too far with JCMs, and LaFemme's topology took a completely unexpected direction, plus she might be overloaded with JCMs. From a purely technical point of view, Dawn has none of these issues. There is a rather delicate balance between posing quality and usability these days, and it usually blows on the vendors. Besides the market split, this has been a major reason why the number of vendors have been dwindling these days - the market has become unfriendly to content creators. It's becoming harder to create new contents, and the prices are going down. Nobody talks about this. No wonder so many vendors have left.

 

[tparo]

Well said Satira. I really dislike when threads get sidetracked, but unfortunately, there's little that can be done about it. I've gotten so I just ignore those posts, and pick up with the next relevant post.

...

Thank you for the laugh Miss B I needed that this morning: The threads in these forums are regularly taken off topic and wander off in all sorts of directions, so its pretty amusing that you raise it as a problem here.

 

[mininessie]

ok...calm down guys!
i think all of us can explain our POVS but don´t take them personal please!
we are here for fun and to work in what we like isn´t?

 

[Sparky]

Not true where? The problem with picking words is that you have missed the context. I was referring specifically to Poser, where sub-D sculpting does not carry details from higher to lower resolutions.

Not to fuel any fires, but I just wanted to point out that this is not true. You just need to have "Bake down for subdivision" checked when making/applying your sub-d morph, and the shape at the higher subdivision will be visible on lower subdivision levels. I actually mentioned this in my brief explanation of the sub-d morph workflow earlier in this thread.

 

[Miss B]

Thank you for the laugh Miss B I needed that this morning: The threads in these forums are regularly taken off topic and wander off in all sorts of directions, so its pretty amusing that you raise it as a problem here.

Ohhhh, not just here tparo, but on every forum I've ever been a regular member on, and I didn't say it was a "problem". It just amazes me that folks who want to discuss something other than the subject of an ongoing thread, can't start their own thread where they discuss whatever it is they want to discuss. I just don't understand why they find it necessary to do so, if it isn't related to the theme of the original thread, and yes, I've gotten caught up in it a time or two myself, but I then walk away and try not to continue to do so.

 

[carmen indorato]

Well at least the discourse is about Poser/D/S work and not about baked goods or our pet cats or dwindeling health or.....
We ALL tend to deviate from the thread dictates and yes it is frustrating but there you have it we ALL Need to (TALK) and get stuf off our chests. Sometimes we react to comment made that raises other questions and off we go!
Patience is virtue we all seem t lack n in these threads. So....time for me to SHUT UP and go back into the shadows!

 

[Sparky]

Oh, thanks so much for the info! Yeah, I've seen Vilter's work-around. It's a messy and convoluted process, and even he restricts it to one subdivision, which is, well, not really enough if you have to cross polys for every single bit of definition you need to add to the mesh. I found that out from my own clothes. Early in the game, there were some items I ended up having to just scrap and start over from the beginning to get the drape and detail I wanted.

The Zbrush process sounds a bit complicated but less time-consuming and difficult than Vilter's. Unfortunately, it excludes any vendor who doesn't use Zbrush, and is still more complicated than simply "Load Full Body Morph." Which would work in a 3D professional community, but is problematic in a hobbyist community.

Yeah, it's definitely not an intuitive process, and I hope that Poser 12 approaches it with a more reasonable workflow. But, I will reiterate that the sub-d morphs are NOT restricted to a single subdivision level.

ZBrush is a hefty investment for the content creator on a budget. Believe me, I know. I saved up for two years to get my copy, but I never regretted a penny. It's the best tool I've ever used, and it's paid for itself many times over. A more budget-friendly way to get started might be to get a copy of ZBrush Core. It's the lower-end version of the software that includes only sculpting tools (i.e., it doesn't support uv maps). It would be a huge shortcut if you intend to make multiple hd characters for poser, and you can upgrade a ZBrush Core license to a ZBrush license later, so it's not a waste of money if you decide to get the professional version. I think ZBrush Core even comes free with a version of the Wacom Intuos tablet (I noticed this when I was looking into replacing my old tablet--wound up getting an XP-Pen instead, though).

 

[phdubrov]

No GoZ for ZBrushCore

 

[Ken1171]

Not to fuel any fires, but I just wanted to point out that this is not true. You just need to have "Bake down for subdivision" checked when making/applying your sub-d morph, and the shape at the higher subdivision will be visible on lower subdivision levels.

That is true, I stand corrected. All this started when it was mentioned that LaFemme comes with a grid-like topology, and I've mentioned that although this can be helped with HD morphs, that is NOT the ideal solution. It would be better [expected] if the base figure already came with proper topology. Then comes Razor insinuating that I am against HD morphs, and even that I somehow hate Genesis and want to bring it down. Same patterns seen in other times when Razor has intervened in other threads, which later had to be deleted because they tend to escalate things. At least some useful information came out this time, but at the end I've lost my temper and I apologize.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I don't see moving off topic a problem, and actually enjoy how many of the threads evolve over time. After all ... that's rather typical in any type of conversation.

If the original topic continues to interest people, the discussion often flows back to it.


La Femme's topography isn't what I'm used to seeing, and I wondered why it was done that way and how it would affect creating content for La Femme.

 

[Ken1171]

La Femme's topography isn't what I'm used to seeing, and I wondered why it was done that way and how it would affect creating content for La Femme.

Indeed, it can potentially be an issue if I wanted to start a "Body Type" series for LF, having such a topology. For instance, I like sculpting curvy abs, and that was a breeze with Dawn's topology flowing into the right directions. It's easy even to know where to place the muscle and bone features because they are embedded into the topology. That is not the case with LaFemme, because the entire abs are a uniform grid, where the only visible features are the navel and solar plexus. One could say this is a minimalistic approach.

 

[Faery_Light]

Can she wear Gen 8 clothes?
There are none included with my download.

 

[Ken1171]

@Razor42 [You are being ignored]

Can she wear Gen 8 clothes?
There are none included with my download.

Are you using LF in DS? If so, you could give it a try with Auto-Fit. In general it would be a hit-or-miss since she has no clones for DS. Nonetheless, that would be the easiest way to get it done. If you are using LF in Poser, a good start would be to use Auto-Fit in DS to get a starting point, then export it to OBJ in Poser scale, and let the Fitting Room try to rig it.

 

[Faery_Light]

I have her in Poser.
Meant to ask if any of the Poser clothes work on her...sigh.

 

[Ken1171]

I have her in Poser.
Meant to ask if any of the Poser clothes work on her...sigh.

Oh, I see, you were very specific about Gen 8, so I thought you were in DS. That is not unusual, since other people have claimed it can be imported into DS, though with some restrictions.

The problem I have with sending it straight to the Fitting Room is the "shrink-wrapping" effect that can eat up the smaller details, and it also doesn't preserve volumes, like shirt pockets can end up inside the shirt, or poking through it. So what I would do in Poser is to refit the outfit with magnets, simple dial scaling and posing, and perhaps the Morphing Tool, until it matches the shape decently. With that done, export to OBJ to freeze the deformations, and send it to the Fitting Room for the basic rigging. This may look like a lot of manual work, but it works with clothing from any figure, and also with shoes or boots.

We will eventually have other tools to fit clothing from other figures to LF, and it would be nice to have a profile for CrossDresser. That is one of the best clothing converters.