Discussion in 'The Meadow' started by Ken1171, Jan 29, 2019.
Yeah, like the ads I've seen for HD and 3D toothpaste!
Small historic correction: AFAIR HD morphs came in the middle of Genesis 2 period, roughly (or exactly?) with Iray. And IMO (good) Genesis 2 HD morphs were far more detailed than Genesis 3-8'. As should be, considering polycount.
Thanks for the heads up! It would make sense that Genesis 2 would have better results with or without HD morphs due to her proper topology.
Even though the UV mapping is a pain for me, I've decided to have a go at creating a texture her.
Is that neckline on the blue sweater supposed to be all jagged like that?
You mean I've been using 2D toothpaste? Sure fooled me!
Looks like a second skin.
yes,because i have not clothes for her ,so i used a geoshell and hide the body parts...this is how it looks like.
There are some free clothes for La Femme now in the Freestuff area at Rendo.
Yes..now i have some ...thank you !
HD morphs was introduced during Genesis 2 and the difference in polys between Genesis 2 and 3 is about 1000K. The majority of poly reduction was in the torso with the a few more in the face. Knowing how to do low poly morphing with the appropriate tool, you don't necessarily need HD morphs... something that will also apply to lower poly characters such as La Femme
My first HD product was released three months after the release of Michael 6 (Genesis 2 Male), so HD morphs had nothing to do with Genesis 3.
That's alright - HD morphs came somewhere between Genesis 2 and 3, and I wasn't sure which, but what I wanted to say was that Genesis 3 needed it more than Genesis 2.
I am not saying we can't or shouldn't use HD morphs, but instead that vendors who have tried to transfer their Genesis 2 morphs to Genesis 3 have complained that detail definition was lost. To have the same level of detail, we have to subdivide the figure and use HD morphs. There is a price to pay when we reduce poly count and simplify the topology. That was my point.
Again, it's not just about poly count. It's about topology. I spent literally days trying to morph PE to do what took an hour on Dawn. Good figure topology has edge loops for muscles and protruding bones like ribs and ankles. Regular grid topology _requires_ an increase in resolution to achieve the same definition good topology does.
Not true where? The problem with picking words is that you have missed the context. I was referring specifically to Poser, where sub-D sculpting does not carry details from higher to lower resolutions.
Again, you have missed the context of what I was saying. You have to check the previous posts to know in what context the name is misleading. The bottom line is that I am not alone on this. A number of vendors have publicly complained at the DS forums about the Genesis 3 topology compared to how it was with Genesis 2. If we just transfer morphs from G2 to G3, we don't have the same kind of definition. In that context, HD morphs have to be used as a form of compensation, and in that context, it is not an advantage when G2 can have more definition without it because it has better topology. Things have continued with poor topology (compared to G2) in Genesis 8, so there is a trend here.
You and I are not talking about the same thing. I do not accept HD morphs as a replacement for proper topology, or a compensation for the lack of it.
To claim that it poses well is only half the story. You are just taking for granted that Genesis 3 and 8 have to heavily rely on way more JCMs than Genesis 2. This blows up on the content creators, who have to work harder to produce the same results, and sell for the same price as before. Here again, lots of JCMs are a compensation for the lesser rigging system with only a single map per joint. No wonder V4 got so popular, where vendors are still creating contents for her - she has no JCMs. She uses magnets rigging instead. It doesn't provide great posing, but people still love and support V4 to this date. It's a breeze to rig contents for her. It's not a coincidence that vendors are still creating new contents for V4 as we speak. There is also the fact that V4 uses legacy rigging, which works natively in Poser and DS, simplifying things for vendors.
Here again, the problem I have with HD morphs and JCMs is that they are being used as compensation for the losses on poly count, the drop of TriAx rigging for single map per joint, and the loss of topology quality. If you look at the Reallusion store, DAZ has been doing these things to make their figures easier to be used in real-time game engines. Some major DAZ vendors like 3D Universe have been selling their DS product conversions at Reallusion for years, but the fact is that all of what was sacrificed on Genesis 3/8 was for nothing. Reallusion decided to use their own base figure, and came up with an ingenious universal morph projection system called "Transformer", released with their CC3 last year.
With CC3 Transformer, it no longer matters if Genesis is low poly, has a simplified topology, or uses General Weight maps. It can import character morphs even from V4/M4, which are not even weight mapped figures (legacy "spheres" rigging). It can import character morphs from Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna, HW Gorilla, and all of the Genesis versions, so the rigging type and mesh resolution are totally irrelevant. This means that DAZ has sacrificed Genesis for nothing. I can only hope this will be a reason for the next Genesis to go back to Poser/DS standards, instead of trying to be a low poly game model. They can still make money by selling "export" licenses to whoever wants to create game models out of DAZ figures. HW is already doing this at the Reallusion store, where nothing had to be sacrificed figure-wise.
Oh, thanks so much for the info! Yeah, I've seen Vilter's work-around. It's a messy and convoluted process, and even he restricts it to one subdivision, which is, well, not really enough if you have to cross polys for every single bit of definition you need to add to the mesh. I found that out from my own clothes. Early in the game, there were some items I ended up having to just scrap and start over from the beginning to get the drape and detail I wanted.
The Zbrush process sounds a bit complicated but less time-consuming and difficult than Vilter's. Unfortunately, it excludes any vendor who doesn't use Zbrush, and is still more complicated than simply "Load Full Body Morph." Which would work in a 3D professional community, but is problematic in a hobbyist community.
@Ken1171 & @phdubrov
According to the DAZ site, HD morphs came out really early in the G2 release. Like almost at the very beginning. IMHO, they were pretty aptly named and used at the time. The very first ones were their Creature morphs, which are always the most extreme. I think there's great uses both for HD morphs and displacement. There's a lot of fine detail that is just better handled with micropoly displacement that can dynamically adjust the resolution according to where the view (for instance, how Blender's works), and there's a lot of larger detail that can work better as a morph.
Just to be clear, I'm all for La Femme's success. I think she's a nice figure. I'm just struck by the fact that Poser figure creators keep ignoring Dawn. If you're going to make a competitor to her that will sell better, you have to go further than the HiveWire3D team did in terms of strategy and design. And so far, it's like no figure creators have even considered either point. They just seem to focus on what their own specific interests and wants, instead of how the community will use a figure as a basis for their own interests and wants.
It's not really about prices, though that's an issue. If high prices prevented sales, then DAZ prices would need to be lower, instead of even a very plain outfit going being priced at $20 and most content there being priced in $30s despite having no greater quality than anywhere else. And you're right, there's only so much an individual can do. That said, if you want to keep using Poser, use your money to support continued development. It doesn't make sense to give what money you have to vendors that no longer support Poser. I totally understand having a _very_ limited budget, and I think no one should spend money they can't afford. But spend the money you can afford strategically. If you want the Poser content community to continue to exist, spend your money it at brokerages that strongly support Poser and don't undercut its artists or vendors. Spend it on modern Poser figures. Spend it on new and innovative Poser content. Focus on new releases, not back catalog. And, most importantly, show your content off _everywhere_.
HD morphs are great if you want that level of detail. But if all you wanted was the suggestion of ribs and there's not enough edge loops in the torso to add them, it's at best disappointing. The whole point of a good base figure is one that is easily changeable by an average content creator by default. Anyone who could make an HD morph like that one could make it out of a subdivided cube if they wanted. They don't have to use G8 for that. And frankly if one can sculpt that well, bending probably isn't a major issue. All sculptors I've watched (all from outside the content community) pose generally and quickly, and finish the pose with sculpting. Even in the community, the _vast_ majority of artists who only use standing there poses. I know because I actually once surveyed several galleries and counted. Almost no one puts their figure in even a slightly difficult or complicated pose. I personally like good bending, because I like doing images based on dance photos, but it's just not an actual priority for content community art, Poser or DS.
It's great that people like G8 figures and their content. And it would be great if people liked La Femme and her content. And frankly, I'm so much more interested in 3D work than a particular figure or a particular piece of software outside of my beloved Blender that I'm open to supporting whatever people like. But just on my own, no community or customers to consider, there's literally zero reason for me to use a base figure with a simple, uniform grid topology that needs high resolution sculpts just to have basic definition. I can make my own version of that in a few minutes of modeling if I follow the norm and leave eyes and ears to be sculpted.
Displacement maps are pretty common in the 3D industry, and not very hard to use across software. At most, you need to shift the zero point and magnitude. It's not rocket science. Unless your renderer doesn't support micropoly displacement, which many raytracers do. Cycles got it a bit ago, Luxrender had it for a long time, and I believe Octane has had it for a while, though I could be wrong. And before Cycles had micropoly displacement, it had "multires" subdiv displacement that used maps, so it's not like displacement maps can't be used with subdivision, too. Displacement maps have been a standard tool in the larger 3D community for decades, and there's absolutely no sign of that changing. I don't think I follow one 3D artist outside of this community doesn't use the high res sculpt to low res retopo with maps workflow.
You've covered the benefits of HD morphs pretty well, but you've skipped all the disadvantages. You mention low res previews, but ignore that you need to preview at the highest resolution when you're making the morph. You're ignoring that you need a tool that can both sculpt at such a high resolution and works with Poser or DS. That's pretty much just Zbrush, which more of the community doesn't have than does, even among vendors. Because vilters' method is really a PITA and by his own account is limited to one level of subdiv for an average figure, and Poser's sculpting tool is really useful but very limited when it comes to fine detail. And in DS you need a tool that only DAZ can bestow upon you. You can't just, you know, try it out on your own. So there's probably less than 100 artists in the entire content community that can make these HD morphs at all, let alone want to, and not a whole lot more that could if they wanted to.
If you have a base mesh with good topology (and good rigging), then HD morphs are icing, not cake. I find it's literally a 1/10th the time to sculpt a figure like Dawn that has good edge loops. It's just plain better for morphing to have a base figure with anatomy based topology than one with a uniform grid. Even if you _can_ sculpt all that structure in, it's just so much easier and quicker to have it there in the first place than to build it from scratch every time. And isn't that the whole point of working with a base figure in the first place?
You really should be using normal maps not displacement for detail, particularly in non-biased render engines.
Exactly. You should be using an actual sculpting tool if you're adding detail. If you're talking about the morph brush.. that's not sculpting. You're only moving the mesh, try to do anything over 2 subdivisions with that tool and poser grinds to a halt. Doing anything above 3 subdivisions in DAZ Studio is going to do the same thing. If you're creating custom characters, especially for sale, you need the proper tool do it, especially when it comes to handling subdivisions and exporting normal maps. Poser or DAZ Studio ain't it. Period. Vendors have to invest in their craft with the proper tools.
That's certainly their right as they developed the tech to only offer it inhouse. You would just simply use normal maps instead. I've been working with the tech since Genesis 2 and it's not an easy process to do. And from conversations online, it's probably a good thing it stays in house as people would try to immediately sculpt on a 3 subd mesh then wonder why clothing sinks into the mesh and they can't fix it. Like normal maps, it's only a detail pass not a sculpting tool, so people need to learn how to sculpt on low poly meshes. I've been doing it since the original genesis and the poly count hasn't dropped that much since then and HD didn't exist back then... so I don't understand the balking some people have when they haven't truly worked with the mesh. Honestly the HD morphs really have value when it comes to content creators that make guys (because of the muscle definition) or creature creators. The female characters that sell really don't need that much detail in their bodies, only the fitness girl-type products would need it... but then you could just use a normal map to get similar definition.
This statement is not true at all. It's easier to make UNIQUE characters and body sculpts without edge loops. Otherwise a vendor is either just making the same thing or you end up having to pull out the mesh or create a bunch of correctives to compensate for where your unique shape is different from the direction of the edge loops. Again, for the vendors that make creatures and unique bodies shapes, it's been a far easier workflow. I know I do far less work to make unique body shapes for my guys because I don't have to fight the flow of edge loops when they bend. But then on my characters I make JCMs for muscle movement because it's easy to do so and the clothing autogenerates the morph into the clothing so the mesh doesn't poke through.
I suppose the bottom line is that the Poser/DS market is made of low budget hobbyists, and this public has been trained only to buy from sales. It's the same public that has consistently bashed any attempts of creating new Poser figures for the last decade. It's like the Poser community is its own worst enemy. They don't buy from Poser vendors, while asking them to make more contents. They claim they will never pay full price for anything - I've seen this attitude at the forums. They keep saying that Poser is doomed, making it look like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Personally, I would had left Poser/DS if HW didn't show up back in 2013. I had my hopes renewed when I first saw Dawn, even before she was released. One could think the Poser community would come straight to support Dawn, but what actually happened was more internal (and external) fighting and discord that persists to this date. Many still refuse to leave V4 behind. As a matter of fact, there is still a number of new V4 contents being released every month. Some others are still clinging for the next Poser figure, as if Dawn had never existed.
The Poser community is not one, but a series of isolated clusters that refuse to talk to each other. Each cluster is supporting another figure, like V4, Pauline, PE, Dawn and now LF. In many cases, people isolate themselves with a figure, and any mention of another can start a war. Conversely, I have renders of a wide variety of figures in my gallery at DA, using Poser, DS, Carrara, Vue, 3DSMAX, and more recently, iClone. Part of the fun was to bring Poser and DS figures into iClone using the new CC3 Transformer.
I have TONS of fun playing with different figures and programs. But for the rest of the Poser community, it's like in the Highlander movies - there can only be one. This keeps the Poser community divided, and as such, it's self-defeating. I really thought HW would reunite the community, but I was just being naive. I forgot there was also the corporate bickering over the fence. That has proven to be a much bigger issue than all of the above.
I started this thread because I wanted to support LF, just as I have supported Pauline and PE when they were released. My main figure is still Dawn, but I have all these other figures in my runtime, and I am Ok with that. I just wonder if one day it will be Ok for the rest of the Poser community as well. They claim to want more native Poser contents, but when we make them, they won't buy it. That takes me back to the self-fulfilling prophecy.