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Dawn 2.0 Underway

Hornet3d

Distinguished
I spent much of today morphing our Dawn SE onto our Dawn 2.0 mesh. Much fine tuning was done to get the desired results. This should make a lot of current Dawn SE users happy. This way as promised your Dawn SE clothing and such will be able to transfer to this figure mesh and Dawn SE still has life going forward.

Here are a few screen grabs of the Dawn SE morph on our new Dawn 2.0 mesh.

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Dawn SE morph (Left) Dawn 2.0 (Right)

Looks Great.
 

kobaltkween

Brilliant
Contributing Artist
It also needs to be attractive to users.
DS is my main program and to make Dawn attractive to me she is going to need to compete with the latest Genesis figure. I have ways of fitteing clothing from earlier figures within the program, I have ways of moving morphs acros from one generation to another, G8 has a wonderful face rig which i use a lot; I got the impression that Dawn 2 probably won't have this feature, I would like to see Dawn 2 take advantage of the features availble in my preferred program, I do not want to see her held back so that she works the same in different platforms.
Um, but weren't you a very strong proponent for _all_ products being held back to what DS could do when Poser could do more? Didn't you strongly criticize vendors for including Poser-only features, even though they didn't in any way detract from what was offered to DS users? Just checking, because I know a whole lot of people who have posted _here_ about how they crippled their Poser products for years because they didn't want to "short change DS users." And I've seen a whole lot of people here, I thought including you, complain about Poser-only features, as well as chime in and say how those people did the right thing. I'd have been a lot more willing to try working in DS if I'd seen _any_ support of simply doing the best you can for each piece of software. If that's the new community standard, it's late, but good to hear.

I'd say it's most immediate and controllable to grab parts with a mouse and move them, and that's always my first instinct. But that often doesn't work, so I'm not upset if I have to use dials. I'm more interested in having the means to accurately match poses from photos without needing to scale body parts to even vaguely match the pose. I personally would love to be able to point toes like dancers do, but most people don't depict dance poses, so I know that's an outlier request.

Just to say, it looks like Dawn might now have the small but IMHO realism problem that most figures in our community have. If you pay attention to noses in real life, or even just feel your own nose, nostrils don't sit square on the face. The bottom of the nostril comes up from the face. It's a small detail, but to me it's glaring when absent, as it is in La Femme and PE. That detail throws off the most important aspect of human realism: the eyes and nose region.

In terms of "attractiveness" to merchants and users, I think it matters how easy it is to create and publish dial-spin characters with skins made by repainting merchant resources (which, again, is why I think a Runtime:Morphs:artistname convention is _so_ important). I also think it matters how easy it is to make conforming clothes for her. I think you've probably got that covered with ken1171's advice, but I just want to say that I do think it's _hugely_ important. I also think it would be helpful if you could release merchant resource clothes, so to speak. Like, for instance, a basic high-heeled pump that people could use as a base and rigging donor for their own work. I don't know if that's possible in any way, but if it is, I definitely think that would help. I think probably _the_ most important add-on versatility you need is hair. Most hair shows the scalp enough that scaling alone doesn't cut it, and is often rigged so that converting is a PITA. Lots of people work with entirely nude figures. Lots of people change skin appearance by changing the shader. And if you have a quality morph set, you can make a pretty wide range of characters with just a few skins, their different make-up options, and shader magic. But for every single new "character" a person renders, they need hair that at least looks like its distinct, even if it's just a morph. I still think a realistic version of the old MayaX hair bits that came with his Anime Doll would work best (sets of different bases, tails, braids, bangs, tendrils, and full drapes of hair) that could construct different hairstyles would work best, but that's just me.

That _all_ said, the two independent figures I saw people get excited about and support most in the pre-Genesis era were Sara and Miki. For Miki, she was just _hugely_ more realistic. Sara was just unique in her look and style, even as one a few different GIRL derivatives. And after that, I'd say the notable 3rd party figures were Rikishi and Nursoda's distinctive figures. I think what really makes a figure attractive is a _unique_ visual quality or feature. Since you want Dawn to be a versatile human base for other artists, this is my suggestion: put as much work into the realism and versatility of her eyes and nose as you do into her body below the neck altogether. The absolute key to capturing a likeness is in the eyes and nose. IMHO, what makes so many figures look toony even with realistic shaders and textures is a) problems with eyelid thickness, b) eye structure that prevents realistic materials (basic SSS, refracting, and reflecting shading) from working properly, and c) noses with nostrils that end with the face instead of having a tiny bit of a raise up from the face. Also, eyelid thickness varies with age, so I'd _really_ suggest adding that as a basic morph. Also, make sure it's easy to make an orbital region that isn't so soft. You see how in that 3/4 view, she doesn't have a distinct dip from her brow to her eye? Lots of portraits of people in general, and famous models specifically, have one, and I've found it _really_ hard to hit the sweet spot of realistic definition that isn't overboard. But I've needed to, because pretty much every figure since V4 has had an uncommonly soft and undefined brow.

And I'd say put about a third as much versatility and realism into the rest of her head, and maybe a fourth into her breasts (if your keeping track, yeah, that means about a quarter of all body realism and versatility in her breasts). If those regions are both highly realistic and very changeable, and I think she'll be both visually distinctive and full-featured.

As always, I close with saying to take my opinion with a heavy dose of salt. It's just my opinion as someone who has zero experience actually making figures. That said, I'm trying to think about this from a systemic and artistic perspective.
 
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eclark1894

Distinguished
Great if it can be done in Poser.
I think it'd be great if Poser got together with Phil C and talked about how to get the fitting room to work right. I mean, if Wardrobe Wizard can make it so that decorative pieces and designs aren't just smushed together flat, seems like the Fitting room can be finessed into doing it.
 

tparo

Brilliant
QAV-BEE
Um, but weren't you a very strong proponent for _all_ products being held back to what DS could do when Poser could do more? Didn't you strongly criticize vendors for including Poser-only features, even though they didn't in any way detract from what was offered to DS users? Just checking, because I know a whole lot of people who have posted _here_ about how they crippled their Poser products for years because they didn't want to "short change DS users." And I've seen a whole lot of people here, I thought including you, complain about Poser-only features, as well as chime in and say how those people did the right thing. I'd have been a lot more willing to try working in DS if I'd seen _any_ support of simply doing the best you can for each piece of software. If that's the new community standard, it's late, but good to hear.

...
I was one of those that pushed Daz to support their own program and encourage vendors to do so yes. Personally I've never come across anything that was crippled to Poser users for the sake of DS users. But to be honest I'm pretty tired of this sort of attack so I'm outa here.
 

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
Hey folks. I've created a genital shape morph for Dawn 2.0. But not eager to show the screen grabs here in order to not offend anyone. If anyone would like to see them please email me at chris@hivewire3d.com and I'll be glad to share a few screen grabs.

Back to UV work.
That begs the question... Will Dusk 2.0 have a genitals add on? If not I have one that I never completed in ZBrush... well it's completed but it was never set up properly as a conformer...
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
That begs the question... Will Dusk 2.0 have a genitals add on? If not I have one that I never completed in ZBrush... well it's completed but it was never set up properly as a conformer...
I understand she will have this genital morph. In DS, people can make very detailed, high-res geografted genitals for her, but in Poser it can only be conformed. Not sure how hard would it be to keep it together with body morphs, though. Maybe transmaps could help hiding the seams? That's how they did it with V4 back in the day.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I like how the materials zones are named in Dawn, with numeric prefixes to help identifying which zones share the same maps, which also makes it easier to find the one I am looking for. I just wish the morph names would have that same kind of consistency. For example, some morphs have spaces in the name, some don't. Some are named in the plural, some in the singular, even when they affect both sides. Some morphs have the expected prefixes on their internal names, some don't. Keeping consistency when naming the morphs helps making them more readable and easier to find. I am hoping Dawn 2.o will have its morphs named more consistently.
 

Art_of_Mind

Engaged
Contributing Artist
Hey Chris,
I'm watching Battle Bots and I don't know if I just got Dawn 2.0 on my mind or what but Jenny Taft, look her up, I see a resemblance. The nose height, chin shape. Jenny even has a resemblance of the original Dawn's skin texture. Do a search for Jenny Taft, I promise a look at her is going to be worth five minutes of your time.
 
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