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Dawn 2.0 Underway

Hornet3d

Distinguished
Thanks, Hornet3d! I think that Superhero catsuit for Dawn is a great base for texture artists to create upon. ^^

The default texture is great for an everyday cat suit of the future or even the present but I often use is as the basis of a mix and match and then play with the textures to get the whole outfit to look convincing as a coordinated outfit . I am no good at textures but do have a loads of great textures such as the Fabric Frenzy collection by Deecey and it is amazing just different the Superhero suit can look with it being particularly great with the leathers but cottons and even wool works well with the right mix.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
I have not read through the entire thread, but might I suggest a "Hand2" bone to simulate the metacarpals? Also, breast handles with floating geometry (set to OUTLINE ONLY). I've had success with both of these methods in the past... and I've rigged a lot of figures.

edit: a "Foot2" bone would work too for those arching feets.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I have not read through the entire thread, but might I suggest a "Hand2" bone to simulate the metacarpals? Also, breast handles with floating geometry (set to OUTLINE ONLY). I've had success with both of these methods in the past... and I've rigged a lot of figures.

edit: a "Foot2" bone would work too for those arching feets.

Welcome to the HW forum, DarkSeal! It's great to have you here! Perhaps you could post an image showing this "Hand2" bone? I have already suggested a metacarpal, but only on the base of the thumb.

Wouldn't "Foot2" be the metatarsal bone from my list of suggestions? We may be calling the same thing with different names. :)
 

Freyfaxi

Adventurous
Now, don't get me wrong - I'm loving seeing the amount of detail being put into Dawn 2,0. But, I can't for the life of me see the need to go into such detail on her teeth :) How many renders can you imagine where you'd be getting close enough to see the detail in her back teeth ? :) It strikes me as asking for her to have nose hair included so you can look into her nostrils ? :) Also..if you're going into such detail for her teeth..what about something no-one is game to mention ? That which makes her a female ? I'm pretty sure that is pretty much a taboo subject ?
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
If I'm understanding your last question, those body parts are apparent with the HiveWire animals, but not with the human figures, e.g., Dawn and Dusk.

Whether anyone has ever done add-ons for Dawn and Dusk, I'm not aware of them.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
what about something no-one is game to mention ? That which makes her a female ? I'm pretty sure that is pretty much a taboo subject ?
Genitals were not an option with the original Dawn, but things may be different this time. There is a possibility that genitals may be added as an add-on. In DS this would be a case for geografting, but in Poser I have no idea.

One issue with the original Dawn was that the crotch wouldn't keep its shape when the thighs were posed, but if Paul could resolve that in the new version, maybe a conforming piece could stay in place for the Poser version. I think this is how it was done with older figures like Vicky4, but it relies on the crotch geometry to stay in place when the legs are posed, or this wouldn't work. This was a main reason why add-on genitals would fail with the original Dawn.

If things go well with the new Dawn's thighs and pelvis rigging, it will be possible to add genitals with geografting (DS) and with conforming (Poser). Based on all we have learned from the original Dawn in these past 6 years, I have faith that Paul will resolve the thighs rigging on Dawn 2.0, so that both these add-on methods will work just fine.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
Thank you Miss B, Thank you Ken!
I will post a sample of hand2 bone, but yes, these "Hand2" "Foot2" would replicate the metacarpal/tarsal bones for sure. There is not reason I can think of to ever Ever EVER make a ture ghost bone. Everything (in my opinion) should be able to be selected from the geometry in the view port, always. If people cannot see it, they will not know it is there. (edit: And I hate navigating drop down menus to select something that should be "right there")

Also, another suggestion (it's worked for me, I can understand if you don't go with it) is to make a "pelvis" bone under the hip, before the thighs. This mitigates distortion on the thigh and buttocks for having to do extreme 90-120 degree bends, for sitting and the like. The traditional hip becomes the pelvis, the traditional abs become the hip(which is still the root). Doing this actually places the center of gravity where it should be (the belly button) and makes for easier IK posing, and again lowers the stress on the thighs in those bends. Pelvic motions become simple, animations show better results... all in all it just works.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
In this example we see the typical issue with making a fist. The fingers are bent in such a way that they are what we "think" the fingers should be like, (example) with Index 1 and Index 3 touching each other, like your hand would when you make a fist. The top images are with no Hand2, like most figures available. Now, you can do this with your own hand, but it's not a fist. Notice, you could not bend these fingers any more if you wanted to, to create a fist...

The bottom Images are with "Hand2" bent, giving the extra 30-45 degrees needed to complete the finger rotations to collapse the fingers into fist form.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
And here is the example of the pelvis suggestion in action. How many times do you need to bend the legs and the fiddle around with the hip rotation to get the upper half of the torso to stand straight up again? I know I do, a lot. And then, like I mentioned before, it's less stress on the polys for extreme bending. (and animations, especially ik, benefit). Please keep in mind I am only talking from a Poser perspective. I have no idea about interactions with other programs that I know people use here (iClone or what not)... but this works for me in practice.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
Last but not least is the Foot2 example.... same as the hand really.... this is an image from a hyper real foot commission. All toes are fully rigged in this example... I don't suggest that, unless one is willing to make master dials for common foot poses. But, including a Foot2 bone makes for easy posing for those dancer type feet and over accentuated balls or heels of the feet. Again, it's not a ghost bone, it's selectable via the view port while working to pose the figure.

This is my 2 cents. Other things that are of MAJOR importance have already been mentioned... the crotch area must not bulge or be pulled at all near the center X of the figure to make tight clothing look good... and supply gens to the market. That point trumps everything else I've said here. If it gets pull, or moves when the legs go side to side, it will be unusable to a large portion of the community... at least, the community that I have been working with.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Also, another suggestion (it's worked for me, I can understand if you don't go with it) is to make a "pelvis" bone under the hip, before the thighs.
Oh don't worry about this - the original Dawn was already grouped like this, and I don't think that will change on the new one. ^^

Last but not least is the Foot2 example
This is the same as my suggestion for adding a metatarsal bone to the feet. As far as suggestions go, I think that one is covered. The image you have posted illustrates well why it should be added. I had previously posted a similar image using LaFemme's feet that has this bone.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
In this example we see the typical issue with making a fist. The fingers are bent in such a way that they are what we "think" the fingers should be like, (example) with Index 1 and Index 3 touching each other, like your hand would when you make a fist. The top images are with no Hand2, like most figures available. Now, you can do this with your own hand, but it's not a fist. Notice, you could not bend these fingers any more if you wanted to, to create a fist...
I just did a quick test with the original Dawn concerning the fist hand. She doesn't seem to have an issue with this pose in particular.

DawnFist.jpg


However, she has an extra "Metacarpal" group that only includes the ring and pinky fingers. Even after having used Dawn extensively for the last 6 years, I am still not sure why this group exists, and I have never used it when posing her hands. I actually first realized it was there when I started modeling outfits with gloves, and it was 1 extra step to break the gloves into more parts to include this group.

I would like to ask the community - have you guys ever used Dawn's "Metacarpal" hand group for posing her hands? Why is it there? What is its purpose?
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I use the metacarpal often when posing Dawn's hands and would miss it. I'd love to have at least another bend in the foot.

I also use the pelvis all the time. The pelvis is especially helpful when you have one foot that touches the ground, but the other foot doesn't touch the ground. With V4, I'd increase the length of the leg a bit to get that foot to touch the ground, but with the pelvis, it's ever so much easier. Usually a bit side-side gets both feet touching the ground.
 

Darkseal

Inspired
@Ken1171 I suspect the metacarpals are there for an easier time rigging up the base of those fingers OR to accentuate hand gestures. You can get rid of the gap between the ring and the mid finger 100% by using the side to side a very small amount. It's a nice fix for that one issue... i never noticed before, I havn't used dawn nearly enough (because of the crotch issue I never went deep into support)
 
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