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Dawn 2.0 Underway

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
That's the one!
Yes, I like how this was designed. The metatarsal on the hand allows the base of the thumb to fold over the hand palm, making some poses look more natural, causing less stress on the mesh. Here again, it was done with a ghost bone to avoid adding a new group to gloves, which was very thoughtful. It's there, but it's optional. I remember being hired for a private commission to allow Genesis feet to pose like this using morphs.

I know other people want 3D feet to be able to bend like this, so perhaps all figures should have this extra ghost bone on the hands and feet. It's the kind of thing that after we get used to it, it makes us wonder why other figures don't have it. :)
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Ohhhh, so THAT's how they do it. One of the main reasons I haven't tried my hand at modeling shoes.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Ohhhh, so THAT's how they do it. One of the main reasons I haven't tried my hand at modeling shoes.
Ghost bones don't have a dedicated body group assigned to them, so you don't have to do anything different when making shoes or gloves for LF. That's why this is so convenient.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Are you referring to how LF has that extra metatarsal ghost bone on her feet to allow bending like this?

View attachment 45516

Personally, I think it's a good idea to make it a ghost bone, so it becomes kind of optional by not adding a new group to shoes. However, I believe the joint should had been placed a little closer to the heels to bend properly.
La Femme's Foot Metatarsal is not a ghost bone, it's a group. And, it does allow for really nice posing of her feet allowing for more natural poses.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
La Femme's Foot Metatarsal is not a ghost bone, it's a group. And, it does allow for really nice posing of her feet allowing for more natural poses.
Thanks for the heads up! It's the 5 extra bones on the hands that are ghost bones instead. :)
 

eclark1894

Distinguished
All of which still has me wondering what to do about the shoes? Doesn't seem as though Paul has any inclination to change rigging from one program to another, which I do understand.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
All of which still has me wondering what to do about the shoes? Doesn't seem as though Paul has any inclination to change rigging from one program to another, which I do understand.
We don't know yet what kind of rigging Dawn 2.0 will have. We're just presenting our suggestions. AFAIK, nothing has been set on stone yet. We already know that there are some parts of the LF rigging that will not work in DS, and whatever Dawn 2.0 will use needs to work in both programs. For once, I don't think DS supports smooth translations, but ghost bones work in both programs.

I am all in for adding an extra ghost bone on the thumbs, and the metatarsal joint on the feet. I have already suggested making chest and neck with a single bone/group each as well, and explained the technical reasons why that would be better. I have also suggested adding pectoral bone/groups to simplify breast posing, remembering that most modern figures have them nowadays.

All of these suggestions are perfectly feasible in both Poser and DS. :)
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Hey Chris, just wanted t make sure this version could have the rib cage definition on the topology that was missing on the original Dawn. The wireframe below is from V4. I remember discussing this with you years ago, where Dawn's topology simply didn't support this, leaving the sides of the torso rather featureless.

Definition.jpg
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Thanks for the heads up! It's the 5 extra bones on the hands that are ghost bones instead. :)
You're welcome. I haven't done any gloves for her so I couldn't say whether the metatarsals in the hands are a group or not. And, of course, I had a render going so couldn't check right then.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
All of which still has me wondering what to do about the shoes? Doesn't seem as though Paul has any inclination to change rigging from one program to another, which I do understand.
Well, changing grouping like this would break everything in the store today for her that includes her feet, so I'd say it's not likely you will see a change like that. A ghost bone metatarsal might not break things, though. I'm not sure. She does have an arch foot morph, though it only affects the under foot. You could always add your own morph to the top of the foot in your "Heels Fit" morph for your shoes.
 

Michele

Admirable
She's shaping up very nicely. Looking forward to working with her!

There are a few fine-tuning face shaping morphs I'd love to see added.

Being able to separately widen/narrow the top, middle, and bottom of the face, as well as separately increase/decrease facial depth at top, mid, and bottom.

A morph to move the top lip up and down. There's one for the bottom lip, but not the top (unless I've missed it?) The dials to move the gums up or down are close, but moving the top lip -- especially separate right/left -- would help fine-tune expressions.

A few more morphs for the nose tip would be great too. I recently dialed an Indian character for Dawn and some of the reference photos I was using had a more down-turned nose tip than I was able to reproduce with the morphs sets I already own.

I'd also find it useful to have a way to raise and lower the outer lip edge height on both the upper and lower lips. And a way to make a little bubble on the bottom of the top center lip. I can get something close to this with the morphs already available, but it's still not quite what I'm after.
 

Satira Capriccio

Distinguished
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I'd especially love a increase/decrease facial depth too.

I'd love to be able to create a similar character to my V4 Dru'zila with Dawn. I believe it was a midface morph that allowed you to increase midface as I did here.

upload_2019-3-16_15-5-53.png


Being able to separately widen/narrow the top, middle, and bottom of the face, as well as separately increase/decrease facial depth at top, mid, and bottom.
 
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Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
You're welcome. I haven't done any gloves for her so I couldn't say whether the metatarsals in the hands are a group or not. And, of course, I had a render going so couldn't check right then.
I have already rigged gloves for LF, and the metatarsals do not require groups. You don't need to rig gloves to know that. Ghost bones don't require groups. :)

Well, changing grouping like this would break everything in the store today for her that includes her feet, so I'd say it's not likely you will see a change like that.
Dawn 2.0 has a different geometry, different topology and different shape. This on its own already breaks everything in the store today. Clothing and morphs made for the current Dawn won't automatically work with the new one. The only compatible thing will be the UVs as far as I know. Having that said, it's Ok to change the groups to get a better figure. In addition, ghost bones do not change the groups, so that shouldn't be a concern.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
Okay. I spent the day reworking her Obliques. After Ken K. showing what he liked in V4, and kobaltkween suggesting that Dawn 2.0 needed more geometry for better muscle detail. I feel great about this offering thus far. It looks a bit strange not having her Lats and abs flexed along with the obliques, but you should get the idea.

Now to go back and smooth these new muscles out. But I wanted to put some morph in to make sure her new cuts actually work as expected.

Dawn2Work51.JPG
Dawn2Work52.JPG
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Thank you, Chris! Besides the muscle definition, will it be possible to have just rib bone bumps on the torso sides? I remember trying that with Dawn, and couldn't get it with the current topology.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
Thank you, Chris! Besides the muscle definition, will it be possible to have just rib bone bumps on the torso sides? I remember trying that with Dawn, and couldn't get it with the current topology.
Let me smooth out the oblique muscle areas. Then I can experiment with some rib morphs. I think I had a better flow going for ribs before I cut the shapes for the muscles. But... I think we should be able to approximate something doable, for some anyway.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
That looks great, Chris! Dawn's side torso is featureless no more! ^___^

With the V4 topology, it was possible to do both things - the muscle definition and the rib bones bumps. Though I think V4 had a denser mesh than Dawn.
 
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