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Dawn 2.0 Underway

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
I like this new all-quads mesh with cleaner loops. I remember some people complaining the default breast shape was unrealistic, to include the morph shape options. I am hoping this will improve on the new version. I am also eager to see how the new torso groups will be setup. They need to be more uniform and well spaced than the ones from the original Dawn. Thank you for sharing the progress with us! ^___^
Yay, I'm confident this mesh flow will work much better for rigging and morph support.
 

sapat

Adventurous
QAV-BEE
So this IS using overlays, like the "EZ Eyeliner" example I have posted earlier in this thread? In that example I have overlayed eyeliner over the no-makeup texture using a mask. Those overlays can be stacked, like I could had added an eye shadow makeup over the eyeliner, all using masks. The advantage of using masks (instead of layers) is that it works in all Poser versions, and at least in Poser 11, I can see the results directly on the previews before rendering. It also allows changing the makeup colors using HSV nodes, or multiplying by another color using shader nodes. On the DS side, at least in my experience, we can do the same using ShaderMixer, but it doesn't show in previews. We have to render to see the effect.
Sorry Ken. I don't use Poser, so was confused with overlays. But yeah, you can stack the shadow and liner, and even lips, but you just have to watch how many you stack and don't forget to delete unwanted layers though the LIE or your computer will really slow down. Occasionally mine will say 'not responding' for several minutes and come back, or just shuts down. It's a nice way to do things, but I find it resource intensive. I am old-fashioned. I just like simple mats that I can see before I waste time rendering. Now I keep my iray settings at the bare minimum for these renders just so I can see the result, but it doesn't choke out my computer.
You're right, you can't see it til it renders which is a down side because you wait to see your result and have to undo it if you don't like it.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Oh I'm really liking the new flow of the mesh on her shoulders Chris. They look like they'll be a lot smoother in renders.
 

Desertsilver

Engaged
Kinda strange to think that in this case "bland and generic" is a compliment right? I feel like I'm taking out her personality. But, I know it's a necessary thing to do so that folks will be happy about her base look.
I really liked that first sculpt- she is like the 'Victoria ' for Dawn, and the one you are working on now is like the base genesis model -maybe both cold be available, the way the genesis base comes with the Victoria model. Then you get the base that is fun to morph and model from, and get to use your creative chops on the Victoria type figure. Just a thought.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Sorry Ken. I don't use Poser, so was confused with overlays. But yeah, you can stack the shadow and liner, and even lips, but you just have to watch how many you stack and don't forget to delete unwanted layers though the LIE or your computer will really slow down. Occasionally mine will say 'not responding' for several minutes and come back, or just shuts down. It's a nice way to do things, but I find it resource intensive. I am old-fashioned. I just like simple mats that I can see before I waste time rendering. Now I keep my iray settings at the bare minimum for these renders just so I can see the result, but it doesn't choke out my computer.
You're right, you can't see it til it renders which is a down side because you wait to see your result and have to undo it if you don't like it.
On my side, I have never used LIE, so I don't know how it works. I prefer to build my own shaders in DS using ShaderMixer, but the downside is that the shader bricks in DS are either 3DL or MDL-specific, so I would have to do it twice. I was a little disappointed that results won't show without rendering in DS, because it takes longer to create shaders that way. However, at least in my experience, ShaderMixer materials don't slow the computer down when creating overlays. The same is valid in Poser when using shader nodes to create materials, with or without overlays, where results can be seen in real-time previews. I have heard a lot of good things about LIE, like it's easy to use, and it supports both 3DL and MDL, though. Just a pity if it affects performance that much.
 

CG Cubed

Technical Director
Staff member
HW3D Exclusive Artist
Just to let folks know, I'm reviewing all of the suggestions and input regarding the rigging and setup.

One thing to note is that the original Dawn was setup in DS and then converted to Poser. Unfortunately with Poser's hybrid weight painted maps, they still use the grouping as boarders when it comes to affectors. This means that the weights are still controlled by the parent and child relationship.

In DS I can paint across the parent to the child and even the grandchild and great grandchild bone. Poser is still limited to just parent and child. This is important when making figures that coil up. It is why ropes and tails have to be well planned and painted in Poser. This is why the rigging was adjusted for many of our figures, from DS to Poser. ie...horse neck, unicorn tail, reigns... and is why sheering of the mesh happens when creating proportions. Poser's scaling is calculated very differently from DS as well. The new soft translation of the weights in Poser 11 should help with this though.

As for the MAT zones, yes it was mainly for the legacy 2nd skins which people mentioned but hardly ever used. My opinion is Mats zones should only be needed for areas that require different shaders. Lips are a good example. they can be similar to the face shader but can to be shiny, either by wetting them or through the use of makeup.

Many of the new features in Poser 11 will be looked at, and we will be implementing many of the suggestions here, but as always, not everything works for everyone, and not everything works from one program to another...so we will do our best to make a Vanilla Dawn 2.0 that will have an efficient creation pipeline, with the best user features.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
One thing to note is that the original Dawn was setup in DS and then converted to Poser. Unfortunately with Poser's hybrid weight painted maps, they still use the grouping as boarders when it comes to affectors. This means that the weights are still controlled by the parent and child relationship.
My concern with Dawn is that her abdomen1 and 2 groups are too thin on the back, like only 3 to 4 polys tall. Thin strip groups are a pain to work with, like they could had been a single group because there isn't enough geometry between them. On conforming clothing, I have to use a tiny brush to work with weight maps on these groups. There isn't enough buffer space for the weights to affect the geometry properly. This can also become an issue with morphs that make the torso shorter, creating ridges on the back when posed. This is what I meant when I said the groups on Dawn 2.0 should be larger and more evenly spaced.

Or perhaps Dawn 2.0 could have 2 abdomen larger groups, but only a single one for the chest. After all, the rib cage bends very little over itself. This would give more space for the abdomen groups, which is where the spine bends the most in real humans. Coincidentally, this is how G2F was rigged. She has 2 abdomen groups, 1 chest, and 1 neck. I have previously criticized how having 2 neck bones can be a nuisance when rigging clothing, because general shirts have very little geometry on the neck to handle 2 bones. I am also not convinced that 2 neck bones are really needed, and I usually avoid posing neck1 because it tends to cause a unrealistic distortion on the clothing.

So my suggestion is 2 abdomen groups, 1 chest, and 1 neck. That would be a joy to rig for and pose.

As for the MAT zones, yes it was mainly for the legacy 2nd skins which people mentioned but hardly ever used. My opinion is Mats zones should only be needed for areas that require different shaders. Lips are a good example. they can be similar to the face shader but can to be shiny, either by wetting them or through the use of makeup.
Does that mean Dawn 2.0 will have fewer MAT zones? Like 1 for the torso, 1 for the arms, and 1 for legs, instead of splitting those into 2 or 3? That would make life so much easier. Most people here have agreed that masks would be preferable to multiple MAT zones when making 2nd skins, especially when those are rarely used nowadays. It's indeed more of a legacy concept I could live without. It would make life so much easier when editing materials, or converting them to other renders. If the skin has 4 textures, I would prefer to apply it 4 times instead of 9.

As for the rigging, I love everything about Dawn - except for the thigh joints. The main 2 issues are:

* Doesn't preserve the crotch shape when thighs are posed.
* The mesh sinks between the crotch and the thighs when bent.

Wireframe example below, side-by-side with G2F in Poser to have something to compare to.

Crouching.jpg


Those issues impact how conforming cloth will bend on the figure. A crouching pose like the above tends to destroy the clothing between the hip and the thighs. I am not sure if this is related to:

* the weight maps?
* the topology?
* the position of the thigh joints on the mesh? <<== Very likely, I believe
* more JCMs would be needed? <<== Hope not!!

Maybe it's a combination of factors, but I would wish it wouldn't require more JCMs. I say "wish" because maybe that's what it takes? A necessary evil?

I am almost convinced that Dawn's thigh joints are not at the right height position to provide more realistic bending, based on how much geometry is displaced upwards by the JCMs. Those JCMs are not correcting the shape, but instead the position of the thighs when bent. Maybe this could be corrected in Dawn 2.0. I would like to hear some feedback from Paul on these issues, and if he thinks more JCMs would be needed (hopefully not!!). I LOVE how few JCMs Dawn has, for it's a joy to work with like that.

Also, my previous suggestion to add pectoral bones still stands. This would remove the need for dozens of breast posing morphs. Most modern figures have that, to include All of the Genesis, LF, and the brand new Reallusion CC3 base figure. This could allow for some interesting things, like the pectoral bones controlling the breast shape morphs automatically with ERCs, and potentially saving people from hunting for a large list of breast posing dials.
 

Rae134

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
You're right, you can't see it til it renders which is a down side because you wait to see your result and have to undo it if you don't like it.
I was a little disappointed that results won't show without rendering in DS, because it takes longer to create shaders that way. However, at least in my experience, ShaderMixer materials don't slow the computer down when creating overlays.
I hate that you can't see some shaders until they are rendered too (some people have found a way to show them but I haven't a clue how, maybe they are just simple ones compared to others). But I always do a spot render, before going to the trouble (and time) of doing a full one, saves a lot of time and heartache :)
 

eclark1894

Distinguished
The point was the hip to thigh bend. This was not supposed to be an artistic render. ;)
I asked Chris earlier if Paul was going to follow or borrow a few rigging tips from the models out now, like La Femme which allows for bending in three places. I was trying to make some shoes for Dawn, but she can only bend in two places. Your posing just reminded me is all.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I asked Chris earlier if Paul was going to follow or borrow a few rigging tips from the models out now, like La Femme which allows for bending in three places. I was trying to make some shoes for Dawn, but she can only bend in two places. Your posing just reminded me is all.
Oh I see. Well, I have pinned Dawn's feet on the ground with IK just to put her into a crouching pose. I wasn't worried about the feet as I do in regular renders. I could even cut the feet off the render, since they were not the focus. Maybe I should had done that, so the feet don't become a detraction.

As for LF, are you referring to the extra ghost bone to add metacarpals to the feet and hands? I think it makes sense for hands posing, but most shoes don't allow much foot posing anyway. That would be more for bare foot posing, and I suppose it will add an extra challenge for conforming shoes because the extra ghost bone will not be automatically handled by Poser because it doesn't belong to the main skeleton.

There is also the thing about the body handles being left behind, out of place, whenever we apply a body morph that changes proportions. I think this will include the extra ghost bones from the hands and feet. I haven't played with that yet, so I don't know how to handle it. Nerd3D claims there is a way to fix that, but it isn't trivial. Has anyone tried?
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I hate that you can't see some shaders until they are rendered too (some people have found a way to show them but I haven't a clue how, maybe they are just simple ones compared to others). But I always do a spot render, before going to the trouble (and time) of doing a full one, saves a lot of time and heartache :)
Simple materials can be seen at the previews in DS. It's the more complex ones using shader bricks from ShaderMixer that don't. Those are the ones I have to use to create overlays, or any other material that requires shader bricks - and those won't show in previews. It's odd, because nothing seems to happen when we load the preset from the library. Some may even think the preset might be broken, but that's just how it is.
 

eclark1894

Distinguished
Oh I see. Well, I have pinned Dawn's feet on the ground with IK just to put her into a crouching pose. I wasn't worried about the feet as I do in regular renders. I could even cut the feet off the render, since they were not the focus. Maybe I should had done that, so the feet don't become a detraction.

As for LF, are you referring to the extra ghost bone to add metacarpals to the feet and hands? I think it makes sense for hands posing, but most shoes don't allow much foot posing anyway. That would be more for bare foot posing, and I suppose it will add an extra challenge for conforming shoes because the extra ghost bone will not be automatically handled by Poser because it doesn't belong to the main skeleton.

There is also the thing about the body handles being left behind, out of place, whenever we apply a body morph that changes proportions. I think this will include the extra ghost bones from the hands and feet. I haven't played with that yet, so I don't know how to handle it. Nerd3D claims there is a way to fix that, but it isn't trivial. Has anyone tried?
So this is what I was considering. If I could arch Dawn's feet just a bit more, then her shoes would follow suit. The way it is rigged now, she's standing facing down on a hill. I was hoping Paul had some ideas about how to compensate.

 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
So this is what I was considering. If I could arch Dawn's feet just a bit more, then her shoes would follow suit. The way it is rigged now, she's standing facing down on a hill. I was hoping Paul had some ideas about how to compensate.
Are you referring to how LF has that extra metatarsal ghost bone on her feet to allow bending like this?

Metatarsal.jpg


Personally, I think it's a good idea to make it a ghost bone, so it becomes kind of optional by not adding a new group to shoes. However, I believe the joint should had been placed a little closer to the heels to bend properly.
 
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