• Welcome to the new Community Forums at HiveWire 3D! Please note that for security purposes our store and forum are on two separate servers so you will require a separate login for each. The store will ask you for your Real Name (WILL NOT BE displayed to the public) and the forum will ask you for a User Name (WILL BE displayed to the public). You may use the same email address and password for both.
  • We are having some issues with our customized styles. The forum will be open with the default style until we can correct the issues. Thank you for your patience.
  • Welcome, Guest! The results are in for the "Spin to Win" Render Challenge! Come check out the final gallery!

Dawn 2.0 Underway

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
I also use Elisa's relaxed lip a lot in my renders. I think Dawn 2.0 could include something like that. DawnSE has the "mouth parted", but that's not quite it. Maelwenn has the "ElisaLipsParted" for his Elisa, and I think it hits the mark perfectly.

View attachment 45370

Another suggestion is to move the nail length morphs from the Starter pack to the Base morphs. I think it's too essential to be absent in the base pack.

On topology, there is one little part of the breasts (red circled below) that have given me a few grievances when creating body morphs. When I smooth the mesh on that spot, it creates an shadow artifact on renders that can be hard to fix.

View attachment 45371

I also agree with placing the PMD binary morphs outside the library, so content creators can refer to them directly when creating morph injections in Poser.

I LOVE to know that the new mesh will include the tear line on the lower eyelids. This can make a WORLD of difference in close up portraits. I got used to having it in V4, and missed it with Dawn.

One more suggestion would be include controls for shrugging. Here again, I was used to having it in V4, and missed it in Dawn.

As for the bland ("marshmallow") default shape, I remember discussing this with Chris about Dusk. Way back then, I also thought that figures should be more generic to facilitate character creation. Then Chris told me that the figure needs to look great on the default shape, because that can be a selling point. I haven't thought about that, and I think there is a point there. Conversely, the original Dawn was released in a more bland default shape, making me wonder if the initial rejection couldn't be related to that. A "marshmallow" plain version could be included as a morph. Food for thought.
Yeah, I'll rework that geometry on the breast. I've had to work with it also while doing morphs. I'll generally preserve the breast area for morph retention, but will clean the topology up.

We need Dawn 2.0 to still be attractive and visually appealing, but I will greatly reduce the uniqueness. I've had several artists on Facebook that don't prefer to comment here, suggest to me that Dawn 2.0 needs generalized, or a heavy dose of vanilla (my words).

Oh, and I'll create a better lips parted morph too.
 

Chris

HW3D President
Staff member
Co-Founder
I was wondering if her default lips be less 'distinctively' shaped out of the box? Unless the morph is extreme, somehow she always looks like her (to me). If her default lips could just have a generic 'blank face' appearance without the smaller curvy pre-shaped upper lip, the lower lip not rolled out and larger, and the corners of her mouth not pulled back like a tiny smile. It gives her a 'model' look because her mouth already looks posed. If both lips started out with a neutral, unshaped appearance, then it would be easier to make her less Dawn, and more versatile. You could include several different upper and lower lip shapes and different types of smiles, etc. This give users a place to start and get some variety, and not have to rely on ppl to model 3rd party lip morphs which may not be the case here. People from the get go could change her appearance by giving her lips (and mouth) dramatic shapes or more subtle ones if she started out 'blank'.

Also like someone said earlier, will we be able to dial in fingernail morphs? She doesn't have any options.

Will her face makeups be separated into lips, eye shadow and blush separately instead of the whole face?

Is there any remote possibility that she'll ever be able to use other figures clothing? I'm strictly a DS user and have a jillion clothes for the other figures, but they won't work with Dawn which makes it hard for me to use her because her hair and clothing options are limited. I realize the competitive nature of the business means 'no, never in a million years', but I thought I'd ask.

Edited to ask: Will her mesh be change at all? Some poses make her bend badly and get overly twisted. And can her morphs not be all Rt/Lt? Can they be like Miffed, not miffed Rt and then Miffed Lt, etc. Give us the option to use both together.

Sorry if this has been asked before but I've been sick and off the computer off and on and can't keep up with multi-page threads.
Good input. Thanks for posting. Will make some changes on the face that I hope you'll like. I'll try to pull out that smile you see too.

I know I've made several fingernail morphs for her, just not sure if they're in the base. But we can certainly put them there for 2.0.

Hadn't thought about breaking out the makeup like that. We'll chat with our texture artist and see what can be done.

I would certainly hope she will be able to wear other clothing not created specifically for Dawn. I've seen many clothing items and outfits that folks have been able to convert for her, and they look awesome!

Yes, her mesh will be changed. I've been working hard to optimize her mesh and redirect certain areas for better flow and to support a superior rigging that Paul will do for us. Her grouping, rig adjustments, and JCMs will all aid in an optimal customer experience.
 

carmen indorato

Extraordinary
One of the things released for V2 was the A to Z makeup/skins set a lifetime ago.I loved that texture set so much I still use it on V2. I hoped the same artist (sorry do not remember who released it at DAZ in V1 heyday), would also create similar set for v4 but never happened. Is there any creator willing to create similar set for Dawn? It would be so GREAT getting something like that to expedite changing skin tones/textures/makeups/eyes ll in one functioning set.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
Yeah, I'll rework that geometry on the breast. I've had to work with it also while doing morphs. I'll generally preserve the breast area for morph retention, but will clean the topology up.

We need Dawn 2.0 to still be attractive and visually appealing, but I will greatly reduce the uniqueness. I've had several artists on Facebook that don't prefer to comment here, suggest to me that Dawn 2.0 needs generalized, or a heavy dose of vanilla (my words).

Oh, and I'll create a better lips parted morph too.
Thanks, Chris! I imagine how challenging the original Dawn must have been, having no previous version to improve from. All of my missing morph suggestions for SR-2 were based on V4, but now it's based on the original Dawn. BTW, my suggestion to replace the jaw bone with a ghost bone still stands, so that the jaw group could be removed.

One thing I always wanted to ask was WHY does Dawn have so any mat zones? For example, what is the purpose of splitting the torso into 3 zones when it could be just one? Same for the arms (3 groups) and the legs (2 groups). This is a royal pain when editing materials for products or renders. For example, I have to redo all materials when rendering in Octane, and the more mat zones, the MORE work. I mean, those zones use the exact same maps, so why splitting them? Someone suggested it was for facilitating the creation of 2nd skins, but how often does that happen comparing to us editing materials for products and renders? If that is the reason, then it looks like the exception becoming the rule. I am sure there must be a good reason - I just don't know what it is.

I am also concerned with the transition from 2 spine bones to 4, along with 2 for the neck. The 4 for the torso is understandable, though I had issues with the way Dawn's abdomen1 and 2 became thin strips that cause posing problems with morphs that change the body proportions. As we have discussed before, there must be more buffer space for the weight maps to act on the geometry. Dawn's abdomen groups are like 3-4 polys tall on her back (thin strips), which tend to become a problem with body morphs and posing. If we must have 4 torso bones, the grouping needs to be cleaner and more uniform.

But the 2 bones on the neck can be a pain when it comes to groups on conforming clothing, because it's a very small part that is affected by 2 bones. I really wonder if 2 neck bones are really necessary to justify how annoying it can be when rigging clothing. Maybe a single bone could suffice? I wonder what kind of posing acrobatics would require 2 neck bones? In general, I try not to pose neck1 too much because of what it does to the clothing. It's something to consider.

Still on the skeleton, perhaps Dawn 2.0 could have breast bones like most modern figures do. That could save a LOT of work when posing the breasts to whatever direction, instead of having to rely exclusively on fixed morphs that try to predict all possible situations. In addition, I was impressed by how we now can use body handles to scale and translate the affected geometry in Poser 11, making it possible to use body handles to not only pose, but also scale, position and shape it. For example, LaFemme's breasts can be resized and posed with their respective body handles, as opposed to having series of morphs to do the same. Scale the handle, and this controls the breast size. Of course, specific breast shapes can still be made with morphs, but the handles can pose breasts with ease, without the usual morph hunting.

The same was valid for customizing LaFemme's facial features using handles. Rotate the eye handle, and we have slanted/drooping eyes. Scale it to control eye size. Translate it to move the eye position around. No morph hunting needed. The same works with the nose. Translate it to move the nose position on the face. Rotate to change the shape, and scale it to affect size. And those are all ghost bones, meaning they require no extra body groups to work. I had never seen this in Poser, and many of us who saw this got impressed, thinking THIS is the way to go.

Of course, not all is wine and roses with body handles. If we apply a morph that changes figure height, or any body proportion, the handles end up out of place because they are not part of the default skeleton (ghost bones are just extra appendages). Nerd3D has commented on how to fix this, but it's not something trivial. In addition, LF's chips were made using parts of the figure geometry, which is a new feature in Poser 11, and will not work in older versions. On the DAZ Studio side, though, it's nothing new that the latest figures will only work on the latest DS version. People hanging on to older Poser versions will have to upgrade. However, this can be circumvented by creating the chips in Modo (the modeling program HW uses), so the handles will work in any Poser version. Nonetheless, smooth joint translations are still Poser 11-only. Very powerful stuff. Translate LF's neck joint up, and now she has a longer neck without breaking the rigging. If I didn't already used P11, I would upgrade just for that.

For those who don't know, these are some of the reasons why some of us are asking if Paul would be willing to carry those rigging features to Dawn 2.0. One thing to consider, though, is that I don't know how this could affect compatibility with Reallusion's CC3 Transformer, because their base figure doesn't use bones on the facial rig. It does have breast bones, though, and I think Dawn 2.0 should have them, too. :)

Personally, I think Dawn's arms and neck are too thick, and her hands too bulky. It's great to hear that all this is being changed in Dawn 2.0! I remember 2 of the most common criticisms about Dawn when she was first released were her wide shoulders and manly jaw. The jaw is easy to change with morphs, but the shoulders took some more work because it's ball joints working there - very tricky area. Santa will not deliver presents there because any changes can be potentially naughty. I hope Dawn 2.0's shoulders will be narrower (more feminine) by default. Her jaw is also quite a recognizable feature, and could be more feminine as well.

Yay for Dawn 2.0! ^__^
 

Dreamer

Dream Weaver Designs
Contributing Artist
Is this like using overlays for makeups?
That could work in DS but from what I have been able to find you need third party scripting to be able to use overlays in poser as an automated operation. Otherwise you have to either, modify the material by hand or put the layers you want together in a 2d program, ie photoshop, beforehand
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
That could work in DS but from what I have been able to find you need third party scripting to be able to use overlays in poser as an automated operation. Otherwise you have to either, modify the material by hand or put the layers you want together in a 2d program, ie photoshop, beforehand
Yes, I have already written a few Python scripts to automate some of my overlay materials, mostly because Poser doesn't allow library presets to alter parts of a given material shader. You can only replace the whole thing. For instance, if you want to change just the transparency map on a material, you can't. We can only replace the whole thing. As far as I know, the only way around this is to write your own Python scripts.

However, I have also created some single block [composite] shaders that can do all of the overlays heavy lifting work, where we only need to plug the texture maps and masks. I think it's really simple to change, and it can also be stacked with other single-block composite shaders, like for example, add an eye shadow on top of the eyeliner. Below is an example of "EZ Eyeliner" I made for Dawn. It's made of many shader nodes, but thanks to composite nodes, all we see is a single block where we can plug the mask and the face texture. You can even change the eyeliner color using the 3rd input, where the default is black. The single block can be added to any existing Poser materials with ease, but people would still have to manually connect the inputs and the output. People intimidated by the "advanced" tab may find it harder than double-clicking a preset from the library, but this solution is super-simple to use and very powerful.

EZEyeliner.jpg


This is my suggestion for how to keep complicated parts simple. An example of another kind of single-block overlay shader is to create swimsuit tan lines over any textures, where I have also written a script that integrates it into the existing materials with a single click. The script can add and remove the overlays, restoring the original materials. It can only handle Poser Surface and Physical Surface root nodes, which are the ones I use the most. Although this can be called from a library preset, if we want to change the mask or colors, we have to do it manually on the Material Room, by editing the parameters from the single block shader. I think it's a good compromise, though. It's the best we can do with what we have.
 

Dreamer

Dream Weaver Designs
Contributing Artist
Yes, I have already written a few Python scripts to automate some of my overlay materials, mostly because Poser doesn't allow library presets to alter parts of a given material shader. You can only replace the whole thing. For instance, if you want to change just the transparency map on a material, you can't. We can only replace the whole thing. As far as I know, the only way around this is to write your own Python scripts.
Yeah I had run into this myself.

However, I have also created some single block [composite] shaders that can do all of the overlays heavy lifting work, where we only need to plug the texture maps and masks. I think it's really simple to change, and it can also be stacked with other single-block composite shaders, like for example, add an eye shadow on top of the eyeliner. Below is an example of "EZ Eyeliner" I made for Dawn. It's made of many shader nodes, but thanks to composite nodes, all we see is a single block where we can plug the mask and the face texture. You can even change the eyeliner color using the 3rd input, where the default is black. The single block can be added to any existing Poser materials with ease, but people would still have to manually connect the inputs and the output. People intimidated by the "advanced" tab may find it harder than double-clicking a preset from the library, but this solution is super-simple to use and very powerful.

View attachment 45384
This is a good work around, for those happy to manually going and change even one small thing. But for those that want a "one click" option not so good plus composite nodes only work in poser 11, yes I know that in all likelihood Dawn 2.0 wont be set up for anything less but there will still be some uses who for what ever reason haven't upgraded the software and find ways of using new figures in older programs.

This is my suggestion for how to keep complicated parts simple. An example of another kind of single-block overlay shader is to create swimsuit tan lines over any textures, where I have also written a script that integrates it into the existing materials with a single click. The script can add and remove the overlays, restoring the original materials. It can only handle Poser Surface and Physical Surface root nodes, which are the ones I use the most. Although this can be called from a library preset, if we want to change the mask or colors, we have to do it manually on the Material Room, by editing the parameters from the single block shader. I think it's a good compromise, though. It's the best we can do with what we have.
It is a good compromise but it would be really nice to not have to compromise at all as not all of us can write scripts but have ideas that will only really work as overlays and know that most users just want to click things and have them work :( But that is more a software failing than anything.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Below is an example of "EZ Eyeliner" I made for Dawn.
That is very interesting indeed Ken. I'm usually modifying Lipstick and Finger and Nail Polish (or adding them where they don't exist), but I've not thought about adding (or adjusting) eyeliner. Definitely interesting.

I really have to get started on the Python class I signed up for, but haven't as yet started.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
"Correct" solution would be SF layers, but:
a. a script for layer management still would be needed
b. as many SF features, layers have not full support in Poser preview

Best (IMHO) practical alternative: material template + script for configuration - masks, opacity, colour and so on. But you need a template for every shader solution that would be implemented (PS root based, FF root based...) - and generator script. Generator script will take current data (or for vendors - data from some file to make a batch) and save the script/mt6 file pair to set needed values in the template in one click. Would it fly with makeup vendors? No idea. This is not some new idea, really. (Advanced shaders, for example.) But for some reason it still not became mainstream.
And there still could be wrong display in preview.
 

Dreamer

Dream Weaver Designs
Contributing Artist
"Correct" solution would be SF layers
But that leaves those not using SF out in the cold.
Best (IMHO) practical alternative: material template + script for configuration - masks, opacity, colour and so on. But you need a template for every shader solution that would be implemented (PS root based, FF root based...) - and generator script. Generator script will take current data (or for vendors - data from some file to make a batch) and save the script/mt6 file pair to set needed values in the template in one click. Would it fly with makeup vendors? No idea. This is not some new idea, really. (Advanced shaders, for example.) But for some reason it still not became mainstream.
And there still could be wrong display in preview.
I think that is what I have been think/wishing for, sorry it's late here brain gone to moosh, what I don't get is why it has never been built into poser in the first place. We know it can be done, we have third party plugins/scripts that prove its do able and its seems, to me any way, a rather fundamental thing to have "in house".
Sorry should stop rambling and derailing the thread
 

Hornet3d

Distinguished
I actually like having two zones on the neck as you get a much better looking result when the neck is twisted which is particularly apparent in portraits. Then again I am only a user so I can see why this might create work for vendors.
 

Darryl

Adventurous
About morphs:
Please, please, please put in the base or the most base morph pack morphs necessary to make not-eyeballed ethnic morphs.
I.e. corresponded to nasale-nasospinale-prostion points and zygomatic bone points (orbitale-zygion-zygomaxilare) of the scull.
I have no idea what that second paragraph refers to but I think I'm in favor of this.

Dawn 2 is awesome news in any form though. I've been waiting for the announcement for at least a year now. Looking forward to seeing you build on an already great product.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
I have no idea what that second paragraph refers to but I think I'm in favor of this.

Dawn 2 is awesome news in any form though. I've been waiting for the announcement for at least a year now. Looking forward to seeing you build on an already great product.
Rough approximation
2019-03-11 18_20_55-Untitled - Smith Micro Poser Pro  (64-bit).png

nasale-nasospinale-prostion can be moved only on Y and Z axes = vertical profile
orbitale-zygion-zygomaxilare can be moved on all 3 axes = middle horizontal profile
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
When applying bikini tan line overlays in Poser, this is another example of having to do it 3 times because the torso MAT zones is split into 3 separate pieces. I don't really get the WHY it has to be split, but I guess there must be a good reason. I also made a tribal body paint that covers the whole body for a render, and that meant editing overlays over 9 MAT zones, instead of just 4. It's 3 for the torso, 3 for the legs, 2 for the arms, and 1 for the face. I'd rather do it 4 times instead of 9. And here again, whenever I render in Octane, we have to redo ALL the materials, and it's a LOT of MAT zones on Dawn. Why so many?
 

Darryl

Adventurous
Rough approximation
View attachment 45391
nasale-nasospinale-prostion can be moved only on Y and Z axes = vertical profile
orbitale-zygion-zygomaxilare can be moved on all 3 axes = middle horizontal profile
Thanks. You seem to be involved in fairly detailed research on the diversity of facial types in the world. I've not seen any figure creators address that in a meaningful way other than Manuel Bastioni in his lab for Blender. If you happen to have any links for more info I'd be interested.
 

Darryl

Adventurous
When applying bikini tan line overlays in Poser, this is another example of having to do it 3 times because the torso MAT zones is split into 3 separate pieces. I don't really get the WHY it has to be split, but I guess there must be a good reason. I also made a tribal body paint that covers the whole body for a render, and that meant editing overlays over 9 MAT zones, instead of just 4. It's 3 for the torso, 3 for the legs, 2 for the arms, and 1 for the face. I'd rather do it 4 times instead of 9. And here again, whenever I render in Octane, we have to redo ALL the materials, and it's a LOT of MAT zones on Dawn. Why so many?
I thought the high number of mat zones was a holdover from earlier days when making pants or a shirt was a matter of changing the color of the zone and maybe a different bump map. I went through a lot of trouble making a bunch of mat zones for a toon figure I was working with before realizing that it was really a pain to deal with most of the time. I prefer masks or just repainting the skin these days.
 

Ken1171

Renowned
Contributing Artist
I thought the high number of mat zones was a holdover from earlier days when making pants or a shirt was a matter of changing the color of the zone and maybe a different bump map. I went through a lot of trouble making a bunch of mat zones for a toon figure I was working with before realizing that it was really a pain to deal with most of the time. I prefer masks or just repainting the skin these days.
I am sure there is a better reason than creating 2nd skins, but I don't know what it is. For example, whatever we do to the torso MAT zone, we also have to do to the hip and neck, so why split it into 3 separate zones? They all share the same texture maps. I understand that splitting the UVs between head, torso, arms and legs can provide more UV space for details, but why splitting each of these into separate MAZ zones? I would really like to know because it adds a lot of extra work when editing materials.
 
Top