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Where should Poser geometry files go? Best practices.
- Thread starter Gadget Girl
- Start date
Hmm, how about if you want to take a DS pose, export as obj, open in Poser and create a pose there?
Oh, yeah I really need to study up more if I can get the fog out of my head. 
Kerya
Brilliant
Please, please, please: put obj in the Geometries folder out of harms way!
Why? Because I am one of those stubborn "rename my folders to something I like" persons - and if I rename the folder, I have to edit the cr2 to point to the obj file ...
As for embedded geometry in Props: don't ... please don't. It makes scene file sizes bloat ...
JCH Digital Designs - Creating Your Own Props 2
Secrets of Figure Creation with Poser 5 (still a great book)
or quite cheap: EvilInnocence - Object Extractor for poser
And yes for individual filenames! It is quite disconcerting to load a background and ground prop like the IC3 and have the ground disappear - because it's geometry is just called ground.obj and Poser uses the invisible ground it uses as shadowcatcher instead of the IC3 ground ... Renaming and cr2 editing ensues ...
Why? Because I am one of those stubborn "rename my folders to something I like" persons - and if I rename the folder, I have to edit the cr2 to point to the obj file ...
As for embedded geometry in Props: don't ... please don't. It makes scene file sizes bloat ...
JCH Digital Designs - Creating Your Own Props 2
Secrets of Figure Creation with Poser 5 (still a great book)
or quite cheap: EvilInnocence - Object Extractor for poser
And yes for individual filenames! It is quite disconcerting to load a background and ground prop like the IC3 and have the ground disappear - because it's geometry is just called ground.obj and Poser uses the invisible ground it uses as shadowcatcher instead of the IC3 ground ... Renaming and cr2 editing ensues ...
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Thanks for all the responses. I've actually learned a lot of things I didn't realize were happening. It is after all different being on the content creation end of things rather than just using content.
I thought you had to have the full file path? If you don't, that's actually a lot easier on many fronts. It also may explain a few issues I was having, where maybe the wrong geometry is being pulled in.
Yeah, I've had that happen. I thought I was beautifully organizing my texture files and creating simple names for them, but then I started getting the wrong image maps applying. I think I may have also managed to get wrong versions of geometry files by having one version in the geometries folder, and then poser put a version in the characters folder when I first saved my clothing as a figure.
I'm curious about your fitting room workflow. My experience has been that the grouping always seems to go so badly that I usually use SetupRoom which seems to be the only place in Poser I can control the grouping.
Didn't realize that. Thanks for the links, I learned a fair amount about making better prop files.
I thought you had to have the full file path? If you don't, that's actually a lot easier on many fronts. It also may explain a few issues I was having, where maybe the wrong geometry is being pulled in.
Yeah, I've had that happen. I thought I was beautifully organizing my texture files and creating simple names for them, but then I started getting the wrong image maps applying. I think I may have also managed to get wrong versions of geometry files by having one version in the geometries folder, and then poser put a version in the characters folder when I first saved my clothing as a figure.
I'm curious about your fitting room workflow. My experience has been that the grouping always seems to go so badly that I usually use SetupRoom which seems to be the only place in Poser I can control the grouping.
Didn't realize that. Thanks for the links, I learned a fair amount about making better prop files.
Glitterati3D
Dances with Bees
GG, every store required a proper relative path in all files.
So the object files in your CR2 should be called with relative path links - :Runtime:Geometries : obj filename at a minimum. You should further adopt the habit of creating a vendor folder in the directories, then a character folder, making your relative path something like this:
:Runtime:Geometries:Glitterati : Dawn:Gi_Overalls:gi_dawntank.obj
Prop files should be treated the same......objects in the Geometries folder at a minimum and linked in the pp2 file with a relative path.
Not doing so means that Poser will load the first instance of an object file named like yours. So, if Ken makes a tank top and I make a tank top and you make a tank top, which one gets pulled into Poser is simply a crap shoot - it's whichever one it finds first. In addition, not creating artist folders means you're likely to overwrite another tank top residing in :Runtime:Geometries
Ignore the spaces in those paths - the forum software inserts smiley faces without the spaces. No spaces.
<--intentional smiley
So the object files in your CR2 should be called with relative path links - :Runtime:Geometries : obj filename at a minimum. You should further adopt the habit of creating a vendor folder in the directories, then a character folder, making your relative path something like this:
:Runtime:Geometries:Glitterati : Dawn:Gi_Overalls:gi_dawntank.obj
Prop files should be treated the same......objects in the Geometries folder at a minimum and linked in the pp2 file with a relative path.
Not doing so means that Poser will load the first instance of an object file named like yours. So, if Ken makes a tank top and I make a tank top and you make a tank top, which one gets pulled into Poser is simply a crap shoot - it's whichever one it finds first. In addition, not creating artist folders means you're likely to overwrite another tank top residing in :Runtime:Geometries
Ignore the spaces in those paths - the forum software inserts smiley faces without the spaces. No spaces.
<--intentional smiley
The Grouping Tool only has effect on group editing when used from inside the Setup Room. Everything is locked otherwise. The Fitting Room was originally presented as a way to convert contents from any figure to any figure, but in reality it can do much more than just that. For once, it's the quickest way to convert geometry into conforming cloth with just a few clicks. The Setup Room is now only for manual group editing or manual bone creation/editing. By the way auto-group can mess up the rigging, it's good practice to clean up the groupings FIRST, right after using the Fitting Room, and BEFORE adjusting joints. That alone can save you from some serious pain later on.
eclark1894
Visionary
Okay, just for the record, I'm not purposely TRYING to cause a ruckus or controversy here, but when two authorities both have polar opposite ways of doing things, my curiosity kicks in and i can't help myself, but ask questions until I just either give up and say forget it, or, preferably, somebody gives me a satisfactory answer.
That little preamble said, the following is a snippet from a response by Teyon on the SM forum regarding the geometry folder and what goes in them. Also, again, just for the record, recall that i did ask that someone from Hivewire stick their head in and comment. I also do know that people are busy or just not interested in what they may consider trivial or even settled matters. However, the situation just seems so weird to me because I tend to like across the board standards, and i'm not seeing any here.
Teyon Global Moderator
a day ago
@eclark1849 Personal Opinion time:
Well let's look at it like this then, and I'm not trying to purposefully point fingers but if the App is doing it a certain way by default, why are brokerages making their vendors do something contrary? I get that Poser started off with things a certain way but time has passed and things have changed. Be open to change or be left behind is how I look at it. The fact that brokerages aren't willing to do that is part of the overarching problem I have with the Poser community and their reluctance to let go of old things (content in particular). Things change for a reason - usually out of need or to make things easier. Insisting things stay the same or supports old ideas is only going to hold up progress in the long run. This query about geometry placement being one of them.
That opinion aside, the question, I feel, is pointless right now. If you're a vendor and you're selling your content at a site and they have a particular way they want you to do it, you have to do it that way until you convince THEM there's a better way. It's messed up and tedious and not vendor friendly but it's your choice to sell there. There are other avenues for sale. Gumroad, Turbosquid, etc. Other Poser specific venues too I'm sure. So yeah, if you don't like the way something is done somewhere and that place is counting on your buck to stay alive, I say get a few like minded souls and voice your opinion to them. In terms of the application, it's pretty clear Poser doesn't care where the geometry is as long as the CR2 knows about it. So any restriction is coming from a broker and at that point you should ask them why.
End of personal opinion.
Okay, consider the question asked.... why?
That little preamble said, the following is a snippet from a response by Teyon on the SM forum regarding the geometry folder and what goes in them. Also, again, just for the record, recall that i did ask that someone from Hivewire stick their head in and comment. I also do know that people are busy or just not interested in what they may consider trivial or even settled matters. However, the situation just seems so weird to me because I tend to like across the board standards, and i'm not seeing any here.
Teyon Global Moderator
a day ago
@eclark1849 Personal Opinion time:
Well let's look at it like this then, and I'm not trying to purposefully point fingers but if the App is doing it a certain way by default, why are brokerages making their vendors do something contrary? I get that Poser started off with things a certain way but time has passed and things have changed. Be open to change or be left behind is how I look at it. The fact that brokerages aren't willing to do that is part of the overarching problem I have with the Poser community and their reluctance to let go of old things (content in particular). Things change for a reason - usually out of need or to make things easier. Insisting things stay the same or supports old ideas is only going to hold up progress in the long run. This query about geometry placement being one of them.
That opinion aside, the question, I feel, is pointless right now. If you're a vendor and you're selling your content at a site and they have a particular way they want you to do it, you have to do it that way until you convince THEM there's a better way. It's messed up and tedious and not vendor friendly but it's your choice to sell there. There are other avenues for sale. Gumroad, Turbosquid, etc. Other Poser specific venues too I'm sure. So yeah, if you don't like the way something is done somewhere and that place is counting on your buck to stay alive, I say get a few like minded souls and voice your opinion to them. In terms of the application, it's pretty clear Poser doesn't care where the geometry is as long as the CR2 knows about it. So any restriction is coming from a broker and at that point you should ask them why.
End of personal opinion.
Okay, consider the question asked.... why?
Let me explain why it's important to keep OBJs in the Geometries folder. It's not just a personal preference - there is a reason for that.
Like you said, Poser doesn't really care where the OBJ is, but the runtime structure was originally intended for OBJs to have their own place, and there is a reason for that. The reason is that anything can be rearranged in the "library" folders, but NOT in the Geometries and Textures folders, because the CR2s, PP2s, etc will reference them by specific path. If we leave an OBJ in one of the Library folders (Character, Props, etc), people might rearrange them and the product will stop working. That's why stores will enforce that OBJs should be placed at the Geometries folder.
The problem is that Poser will NOT obey it's own standards, and by default will place newly created OBJs in the same folder as the CR2 or PP2. It has always been a chore to move it to the Geometries folder and fix the wrong paths on the CR2, PP2, etc. But that's something you will WANT to do to make sure people will be able to rearrange the library folders without breaking the contents. The same goes to the textures - you will want them to be in the Textures folder, outside the Library folder boundaries.
That's it in a nutshell.
Like you said, Poser doesn't really care where the OBJ is, but the runtime structure was originally intended for OBJs to have their own place, and there is a reason for that. The reason is that anything can be rearranged in the "library" folders, but NOT in the Geometries and Textures folders, because the CR2s, PP2s, etc will reference them by specific path. If we leave an OBJ in one of the Library folders (Character, Props, etc), people might rearrange them and the product will stop working. That's why stores will enforce that OBJs should be placed at the Geometries folder.
The problem is that Poser will NOT obey it's own standards, and by default will place newly created OBJs in the same folder as the CR2 or PP2. It has always been a chore to move it to the Geometries folder and fix the wrong paths on the CR2, PP2, etc. But that's something you will WANT to do to make sure people will be able to rearrange the library folders without breaking the contents. The same goes to the textures - you will want them to be in the Textures folder, outside the Library folder boundaries.
That's it in a nutshell.
Yep. I respectfully disagree with Teyon's comments that "It's messed up and tedious and not vendor friendly". Well, maybe it's a bit not vendor friendly, but it is USER friendly, which is hopefully what people selling products care about.
Honestly, if you have to open up the cr2 in a text editor and change the path of the obj, it's just not that time consuming or difficult to do. I fix/edit paths all the time.
I also certainly hope people will not decided to, as he says, find "other avenues for sale" because we (and just about any other place I've ever shopped at) want the geometry files to be in the geometry FOLDER.
Honestly, if you have to open up the cr2 in a text editor and change the path of the obj, it's just not that time consuming or difficult to do. I fix/edit paths all the time.
I also certainly hope people will not decided to, as he says, find "other avenues for sale" because we (and just about any other place I've ever shopped at) want the geometry files to be in the geometry FOLDER.
There is always a chance SMS will fix this in Poser 12. There is no lack of requests, and I (and other vendors) have even suggested HOW this could be resolved in our bug reports. My argument with SMS was that Poser is now in version 11, and it still doesn't know where to place its own files. Not to mention there is no content store I know of that would accept this, or even props with embedded geometries, which is yet another issue Poser can't handle on its own. It's understandable some vendors might consider this messed up and tedious, since these are issues that have persisted since 1997. For SMS, since 2008. These are the issues I consider essential, and personally, I would prefer SMS would fix these instead of concentrating on adding new features.
If you think of it, every time we change the grouping or rigging, the item will now have 2 OBJs: the original, and the newly created one that sits with the CR2. There were cases where this recipe has lead to disaster, since it's easy to delete the wrong file and loose all your work. The simple act of fixing paths on a CR2 is not difficult, but it can definitely be tedious and even fatal in some cases (e.g., delete the wrong OBJ). I have been personally asking SMS to resolve this for 8 years now.
If you think of it, every time we change the grouping or rigging, the item will now have 2 OBJs: the original, and the newly created one that sits with the CR2. There were cases where this recipe has lead to disaster, since it's easy to delete the wrong file and loose all your work. The simple act of fixing paths on a CR2 is not difficult, but it can definitely be tedious and even fatal in some cases (e.g., delete the wrong OBJ). I have been personally asking SMS to resolve this for 8 years now.
Just to clarify, Teyon, who said this, is not a vendor - he is a Smith Micro employee, and he is saying, if I am understanding correctly, that stores insisting that the obj files be in the geometry folder and not in the character folder is what is "messed up and tedious and not vendor friendly".
I'm starting to realize the bigger issue is that Poser also isn't consistent about what it does. It's not as if every time you save a cr2 an obj with a matching name is created. I actually just had an interesting experience like five minutes ago.
I have a runtime I use for my own personal works in progress. CWRW and I are working on a project together, and I wanted to send her a new version of the rigged object. Since the last time I sent her something, we had talked about names for project and stuff like that, and although we haven't settled on a definitive name, since I had to save the figure one last time anyway, I went ahead and put it in my Hivewire runtime with Dusk's other clothing items which is where we'd figure it would eventually end up. Basically I was saving a slightly modified version to an entirely different runtime. When I went to get a copy of the files to send to her, there was no .obj file with the new .cr2. Opened the .cr2 file and discovered it was still linking back to my WIP runtime. So Poser, sometimes puts the .obj with the .cr2 file. But not all the time. And it doesn't give you a heads up of any sort about which way it's decided to do things.
I think that's the real thing that would be nice. A simple dialog either asking you if/where you want to save a version of the .obj or at least telling you what it decided to do.
I have a runtime I use for my own personal works in progress. CWRW and I are working on a project together, and I wanted to send her a new version of the rigged object. Since the last time I sent her something, we had talked about names for project and stuff like that, and although we haven't settled on a definitive name, since I had to save the figure one last time anyway, I went ahead and put it in my Hivewire runtime with Dusk's other clothing items which is where we'd figure it would eventually end up. Basically I was saving a slightly modified version to an entirely different runtime. When I went to get a copy of the files to send to her, there was no .obj file with the new .cr2. Opened the .cr2 file and discovered it was still linking back to my WIP runtime. So Poser, sometimes puts the .obj with the .cr2 file. But not all the time. And it doesn't give you a heads up of any sort about which way it's decided to do things.
I think that's the real thing that would be nice. A simple dialog either asking you if/where you want to save a version of the .obj or at least telling you what it decided to do.
eclark1894
Visionary
I think the dialog would be the answer as well.
eclark1894
Visionary
Another question... how do i create a prop for Poser, or DS for that matter, and NOT have embedded geometry? Usually to create a prop in Poser I just import an object and save it to the library. Is that what creates the embedded geometry. I guess you can tell, I'm pretty new at this still.
You can't create it without geometry Earl. What you need to do is extract the geometry from the prop after you have it done.
I think I saw a link to a tutorial on how to do it, and IIRC, there's a small app that will do it for you, and I think it's by EvilInnocence. I don't know if they'll put it in the store here, but you could always check out their store on their site.
OK, found the link, and it's inexpensive --> Object Extractor
I think I saw a link to a tutorial on how to do it, and IIRC, there's a small app that will do it for you, and I think it's by EvilInnocence. I don't know if they'll put it in the store here, but you could always check out their store on their site.
OK, found the link, and it's inexpensive --> Object Extractor
eclark1894
Visionary
To be honest Richard, I'm not even sure what the difference is between a prop or an object?