Discussion about Poser Rigging and DS Rigging etc

[Ken1171]

Thanks for the link. It remains to see what the new Poser team will make of it, and how long it will take, since they are new to it.

 

[eclark1894]

Well, even if they don't want to license the particles plugin, maybe they could create a plug -in for Blender which is open source.

 

[eclark1894]

DAZ is not crazy about encouraging their vendors to support Poser. And it doesn't stop with Poser support - they also forbid anything related to HW figures as well. The tone at the DAZ forums is that "Poser is dead - why do you even bother?". I still remember back in 2013, when DAZ claimed HW wouldn't last a year. Would you be surprised if DAZ quite Poser support altogether?

I don't see Daz dumping Poser support altogether, no. But I'm also not seeing much evidence of them encouraging Poser support going forward either.

 

[daywalker03]

Yes, I've noticed the larger than life notice on several PA's product pages called "Interactive License". I'm assuming it's similar to the Extended License I see for some products at Renderosity, just more expensive.

They phased out the older Commercial and Indie Game licenses and replaced them with that, because there were folks that wanted to buy one item from PAs and didn't want to have pay $500US to do it. And a lot of the cost depends on product age and what kind of product it is.

 

[Miss B]

OK, I guess most of the items I've seen it on are about the same "age", as I've only noticed the $50 price.

 

[Alisa]

This was part of the thread concerning HiveWire no longer supporting Poser 9 and below. The discussion's changed so much that I split this off into its own thread for you to all discuss (nicely, remember please ) all this, so we can keep that thread for questions people might have about that subject.

Thanks!

 

[Hornet3d]

DAZ is not crazy about encouraging their vendors to support Poser. And it doesn't stop with Poser support - they also forbid anything related to HW figures as well. The tone at the DAZ forums is that "Poser is dead - why do you even bother?". I still remember back in 2013, when DAZ claimed HW wouldn't last a year. Would you be surprised if DAZ quite Poser support altogether?

From the outside looking in I get very confused by this, looking at the history I can understand why Daz3d would not support the Hivewire family. That is not to say I agree and I think it is to Hivewire credit that they allow Genesis products in their store. What I then find confusing is that they would then approach Hivewire to have some of their products in store, although of course we all know how that ended up. It seems to send some very mixed messages but then, what do I know.

I still shop at Daz picking up a lot of the older Poser products at sale prices, well at leasts props and scenes, using Dawn means I never by outfits there not even V4 stuff I can convert. As my wish list diminishes I can see my orders will as well although I will continue to support those vendors that still create for Poser. At the moment my buying I priorities are Hivewire3d for anything I can use but mainly clothes for Dawn, Daz for props and scenes and I am now keeping an eye on the revamped Content Paradise. So if Daz drops Poser support it will be a shame but will have minimal impact on my buying or hobby.

I can't see me moving to using DS but I would never say no as I cannot predict the future, that said, I cannot see me ever using Genesis for all the reasons given earlier in this thread. If I did start using DS my figure of choice would still be Dawn.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Same for me, Hornet. I buy from DAZ vendors who support Poser. And, very rarely.

And, in support of Ken, the Dawn and Dusk prohibition is clear. RDNA had a good selection of Dawn products and not one of them got moved to DAZ.

Hivewire just finally got Dawn's beautiful Braid from Arki which was an RDNA product.

And, of course, there's also the familiar behavior over at the Rendo forum. DAZ announces a new feature or figure and all the DAZ fanbois race to Rendo to dance on Poser's grave. Same thing happens all the time.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I actually did start out using DAZ Studio way back in 2006. That was when you got the base program free, but had to buy add ons to get the most out of DS. Any time someone would post on the forums complaining they couldn't get the results they wanted, they were told they needed to buy this add on or that add on. The "add on" I bought a few months later was ... Poser 5. Poser 5 clicked for me in ways DS never had, but I stubbornly continued to try to make DS work for me. It was Poser lighting that cut the cord. I was never able to wrap my brain around DS lights, but Poser lights actually made sense to me. It's the opposite for many people though. Which just goes to show that one fit for everyone isn't any truer with software than it is with clothing.

Fast forward a few years, and DS 4 was in development. After years of using Poser, I struggled even more with DS 4 than I had the earlier version. Though, I really, really tried. Again ... one size fits all ... doesn't. In this case, the biggest problem was that I had a standard monitor and 4.0 was developed for a wide screen monitor. The deal breaker for me was that I had to constantly open and close or switch tabs to do anything ... if I wanted a usable workspace for my scene. I found the Poser windows gave me more control over the UI, so I was able to have all the little windows displayed I used most (Camera Controls, Light Controls, Properties, Library, and Hierarchy Editor), as well as those I used less often (Editing tools, Preview Styles, and Animation Controls) and still had a workable workspace. In addition, the Poser document (scene) window could be undocked ... which make it independent of other UI windows. One of the biggest problems for me though was that the DS workspace did not reflect the render size, so I could never figure out what would be in the render and what would be outside. While the Poser document window showed exactly what would be in the render.

DS has definitely improved from that early version, and it's truly amazing what some people are able to produce with DS. At the same time, Poser has also improved, and it's just as amazing what some people are able to produce with Poser.

I've never done content creating using DS, so I don't know the first thing about it or whether it's easier or more difficult. But I suspect that's also another experience that differs for people. It totally amazes me that Paul and others are so proficient in rigging in both DS and Poser. I know I wouldn't be! It took me awhile just to figure out how to change material properties in DS, and I couldn't ever figure out why plastic was always the default on everything. As complicated as the Poser material room may be, I found it easier to understand. Again ... it's that one size thing.

 

[Hornet3d]

Same for me, Hornet. I buy from DAZ vendors who support Poser. And, very rarely.

And, in support of Ken, the Dawn and Dusk prohibition is clear. RDNA had a good selection of Dawn products and not one of them got moved to DAZ.

Hivewire just finally got Dawn's beautiful Braid from Arki which was an RDNA product.

And, of course, there's also the familiar behavior over at the Rendo forum. DAZ announces a new feature or figure and all the DAZ fanbois race to Rendo to dance on Poser's grave. Same thing happens all the time.

I have had a bit of a spree at Daz lately and the credit card is having to take up the overspend but the reason for that is there are only three major vendors that I follow in the sense I have a lot of their products and a lot of their stuff is 60% off. I would not normally be so rash but I would hate to find out that these products became unavailable at a later date and I can also see and end to the spend in that my wish list, which was in the close to forty items a few months ago, is now down to around 15 items. Once that that is cleared I will only buy the new products from the same vendors and only while on sale, which will be few and far between so in a sense I am only really playing catch up.

The other reason I am spending is, in fairness to Daz, unlike other stores where they put a texture on sale and the main product is full price, they do tend to do put related items on sale. For example I have just picked up a building and two add on textures all of which were on sale at 60% and unlike a lot of my purchases I can see a use immediately as I want to use the location throughout a story where the seasons change and the building ages as the story progresses.

I never expected any Dawn products to go to Daz so I was not surprised and, with the notice I had I did a raid on RDNA, before it closed. I was sad though that much of the content, scripts and some vendors were just lost to the community when RDNA shut it's doors, that is progress I guess.

I don't got to Rendo any more, well not since March which means that I have saved just over $700 to spend elsewhere, based on my average spend before it all started to go wrong for me. I don't miss the marketplace and miss the forums even less although the same would happen on any forum if overseen properly. I have been using Poser since version 5 and ten years ago, or more, the soothsayers were predicting the demise of Poser. Always makes me think of a headstone for a hypochondriac which reads 'See I told you I was ill' and in the same sense they will be right one day, whether I will still be around by then is another matter, in fact I am not sure many of the people doing the predicting will be either. I am now too long in the tooth to get upset by it but I do feel for the people new to 3D are who will not see the hidden agenda.

I will put in my usual disclaimer. None of the above is said in an attempt to put down anyone or any company, it is my personal view of how I see the situation and an accurate description of how I reacted, or come to terms, with that view. It is up to reader to decide if they agree or disagree, either in part or in entirety, but, while I accept I may have a bias, there is no intent to grind any axe or run any hidden agenda.

 

[Hornet3d]

I actually did start out using DAZ Studio way back in 2006. That was when you got the base program free, but had to buy add ons to get the most out of DS. Any time someone would post on the forums complaining they couldn't get the results they wanted, they were told they needed to buy this add on or that add on. The "add on" I bought a few months later was ... Poser 5. Poser 5 clicked for me in ways DS never had, but I stubbornly continued to try to make DS work for me. It was Poser lighting that cut the cord. I was never able to wrap my brain around DS lights, but Poser lights actually made sense to me. It's the opposite for many people though. Which just goes to show that one fit for everyone isn't any truer with software than it is with clothing.

Fast forward a few years, and DS 4 was in development. After years of using Poser, I struggled even more with DS 4 than I had the earlier version. Though, I really, really tried. Again ... one size fits all ... doesn't. In this case, the biggest problem was that I had a standard monitor and 4.0 was developed for a wide screen monitor. The deal breaker for me was that I had to constantly open and close or switch tabs to do anything ... if I wanted a usable workspace for my scene. I found the Poser windows gave me more control over the UI, so I was able to have all the little windows displayed I used most (Camera Controls, Light Controls, Properties, Library, and Hierarchy Editor), as well as those I used less often (Editing tools, Preview Styles, and Animation Controls) and still had a workable workspace. In addition, the Poser document (scene) window could be undocked ... which make it independent of other UI windows. One of the biggest problems for me though was that the DS workspace did not reflect the render size, so I could never figure out what would be in the render and what would be outside. While the Poser document window showed exactly what would be in the render.

DS has definitely improved from that early version, and it's truly amazing what some people are able to produce with DS. At the same time, Poser has also improved, and it's just as amazing what some people are able to produce with Poser.

I've never done content creating using DS, so I don't know the first thing about it or whether it's easier or more difficult. But I suspect that's also another experience that differs for people. It totally amazes me that Paul and others are so proficient in rigging in both DS and Poser. I know I wouldn't be! It took me awhile just to figure out how to change material properties in DS, and I couldn't ever figure out why plastic was always the default on everything. As complicated as the Poser material room may be, I found it easier to understand. Again ... it's that one size thing.

Now you see I like that, a personal description of what you use, how that came about and why. Not decrying the alternative but accepting others will feel very different. I dread to think what response you would have got saying the same thing elsewhere but, at the same time, I rejoice in the fact it can be said here.

 

[Glitterati3D]

They phased out the older Commercial and Indie Game licenses and replaced them with that, because there were folks that wanted to buy one item from PAs and didn't want to have pay $500US to do it. And a lot of the cost depends on product age and what kind of product it is.

I don't pay attention to this over at DAZ, but from what I saw there was no "phasing out" at all. They just changed the pricing with no announcement or warning.

 

[eclark1894]

Maybe somebody could answer a question for me. If not, I'll take it over to DAZ, but weren't your RDNA purchases supposed to be automatically added to your DAZ product library?

 

[Glitterati3D]

Maybe somebody could answer a question for me. If not, I'll take it over to DAZ, but weren't your RDNA purchases supposed to be automatically added to your DAZ product library?

Yes, IF, you had the same username/email address at both stores.

 

[eclark1894]

Yes, IF, you had the same username/email address at both stores.

I did. I even had the same password.

 

[Ken1171]

What I then find confusing is that they (DAZ) would then approach Hivewire to have some of their products in store,

Plain and simple: DAZ has recognized the HW animals were of excellent quality. They had their own animals, but still, they understood the HW ones were of better quality. They may forbid HW figures there, but that was DAZ recognizing that HW is not fooling around here. Even if the final result from the deal wasn't the greatest, I still think was better this way, because they don't play in the same rules. It would be good, but risky.

Nonetheless, this stunt has given HW a little extra advertising over there, making people even more curious about the HW figures that DAZ had previously badmouthed so much, and suddenly wanted to sell them with an exclusivity deal. Imagine that in the minds of their customers.

So if Daz drops Poser support it will be a shame but will have minimal impact on my buying or hobby.

For the record, DAZ itself has already dropped Poser support long ago. It is only individual vendors who still support Poser over there, and some with that rather gimmicky DSON approach that is not really Poser support, but rather a workaround. Actual Poser support is what we do here at HW, with NATIVE support in products and materials. I know some vendors there do this too, but DAZ doesn't require it, meaning basically that they don't care.

DAZ announces a new feature or figure and all the DAZ fanbois race to Rendo to dance on Poser's grave. Same thing happens all the time.

Not to mention the ones who come flaming me at DA because they think I am a Poser advocate, forgetting that for years I have supported both programs natively in equal amounts. In their minds, supporting Poser is offensive, which supposedly justifies the flaming. Nonetheless, some still come mocking me when DS gets a new feature, as if that is yet another "proof that Poser is dead". I don't blame them personally - they are just repeating what they hear at the forums. I don't know if it still is, but there was a time when DAZ admins actually promoted that kind of behavior.

That is why I feel comfortable at HW - we don't promote that kind of behavior here.

I actually did start out using DAZ Studio way back in 2006.

Me too, but it wasn't very usable at that stage. I only started to actively support DS in version 4.6, when it came up to my standards for content creation. That is not to say there weren't show-stopping bugs, but Poser has them too. It was just a matter of finding a more stable version and sticking to it. That is - until they came up with a new rigging system that forced people to upgrade.

I had mixed feelings about it ever since, because they seem to have stopped fixing what they previously broke in the current version. This is something I have claimed against SMS as well, when Poser seems to add more new features than fixing the existing bugs. It appears that none is the better when it comes to this.

I found the Poser windows gave me more control over the UI

Hehe this is a "love or hate" part of Poser/DS, where opinions vary a lot. I think it may be that people will like more the interface they got started with, and will resist the other one because they are not used to it. After using DS for years for content creation, I just got used to interface, and didn't think it was better or worse than Poser. It's just a matter of getting used to it, though I am still more proficient with Poser because I don't have to fight the interface so much. However, if I had started with DS and then moved to Poser, I could probably be saying the opposite! LOL

But like you, one particular thing I can't get over in DS were the lights.

I've never done content creating using DS, so I don't know the first thing about it or whether it's easier or more difficult. But I suspect that's also another experience that differs for people.

I personally think DS has excellent content creation tools - when they work. Here again, it's a matter of finding a version that has most of them stable and working, and then sticking to it. Yet, there are things I like better in Poser, and some that seem to be better in DS. None of the best in everything.

One thing DS does better is transferring morphs from figure to clothing. Conforming in general works better in DS than it does in Poser, as well as body scaling. However, I find it easier to hook up JCMs in Poser than in DS, where in Poser we can also create the JCMs with the morphing brush without having to use an external tool like it is with DS. Both have their pros and cons when it comes to content creation.

Maybe without the corporate bickering, they could had put it all together and provided us, the customers, the best of both worlds. That's how it was in the beginning, when we were all happy, and this was a pure FUN hobby.

 

[daywalker03]

OK, I guess most of the items I've seen it on are about the same "age", as I've only noticed the $50 price.

That is the standard for anything classified as a Daz Original; PA products usually max out at around $35.

I don't pay attention to this over at DAZ, but from what I saw there was no "phasing out" at all. They just changed the pricing with no announcement or warning.

While Daz didn't give official notification, it only was a surprise to those that don't regularly visit the forums, as a store glitch about a month before the actual change made forum regulars aware of it.

 

[eclark1894]

Same for me, Hornet. I buy from DAZ vendors who support Poser. And, very rarely.

And, in support of Ken, the Dawn and Dusk prohibition is clear. RDNA had a good selection of Dawn products and not one of them got moved to DAZ.

Hivewire just finally got Dawn's beautiful Braid from Arki which was an RDNA product.

And, of course, there's also the familiar behavior over at the Rendo forum. DAZ announces a new feature or figure and all the DAZ fanbois race to Rendo to dance on Poser's grave. Same thing happens all the time.

You know what's really irking me about that thread are the Rendo moderators. The posters over there are basically bad mouthing Poser, and no moderator says a thing. It's "constructive criticism". Say something negative about Studio, and it doesn't even matter what it is that you said, suddenly it's software bashing and they warn you that they're going to lock the thread.

 

[Hornet3d]

For the record, DAZ itself has already dropped Poser support long ago. It is only individual vendors who still support Poser over there, and some with that rather gimmicky DSON approach that is not really Poser support, but rather a workaround. Actual Poser support is what we do here at HW, with NATIVE support in products and materials. I know some vendors there do this too, but DAZ doesn't require it, meaning basically that they don't care.


That is why I feel comfortable at HW - we don't promote that kind of behavior here.

Yes I had noticed that when a lot of so say 'Poser' items are by using DSON which personally I do not use and I always make sure that the listing includes the Poser files and materials. I am not going to pay money for something I have to jump through hoops to make work, even at 60% off.

The only sorts of behaviour promoted here is adult and respectful, which some complain stifles debate, no it encourages debate it just stifles flame wars.

 

[Hornet3d]

You know what's really irking me about that thread are the Rendo moderators. The posters over there are basically bad mouthing Poser, and no moderator says a thing. It's "constructive criticism". Say something negative about Studio, and it doesn't even matter what it is that you said, suddenly it's software bashing and they warn you that they're going to lock the thread.

I have not been there for months but I can still see the names and I bet I could make a good stab at what is being posted along with the moderators claim you can't complain or ask for a thread to be locked just because you disagree, which is most cases can be read either as ' I am not locking the thread either because (A) I agree or (B) I love a flame war or (C) A and B (of course locking a thread as soon as (A) is a negative). They did me a favour when they suspended me for a day, (they gave me a days holiday and I took 7 months and counting) haven't been back as I just refuse to be part of what I see as a senseless argument and total waste of time. The only sad fact was, in the past, there was so much that could be learned there before it turned into the flame war capital.