Discussion about Poser Rigging and DS Rigging etc

[Hornet3d]

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, Earl. After all, there came a time when users couldn't even open .dsa scene files from DS3 and that didn't slow them down. DAZ has pretty much already done that several times before DS4 and after.

I think that Poser places too much emphasis on backward compatibility, hobbling new features because of it.

I agree, if backwards compatibility restricts new features that also limits potential sales. I think my only concern is if the changes impact an ongoing project. For example, if you are trying to tell a story you want to be consistent throughout so when I switched from V4 to Dawn I had to create a new character and then go back and redo the renders I had done with V4, but at least that was possible, if time consuming. If a new version of Poser converted my old scenes so they could still be used in the latest version that would be fine but if the changes mean I cannot load an old scene I think I would question upgrading.

Poser 11 is a good example, if i was illustrating a book there might be an issue if I suddenly went from Firefly to Superfly but Poser 11 gives me the option to continue with Firefly or update to Superfly and rework old scenes if I wanted to but to do that I must be able to load the old scene which, of course, I can. I am less concerned if, when saved, that scene can only be used in the latest version, such things happen in software all the time.

 

[RAMWolff]

Honestly, hypothetical or no.... I wouldn't stop using DAZ Studio. Honestly, I don't use MOST legacy content. I move forward with what's happening in the here and now.... so V4 and M4 haven't been loaded for years, nor has M3/V3. I do still have a soft spot for H3 and A3 (except for their toothy smiles) but other than that.... I stick with Dusk and Dawn. As for Environmental stuff, no issues loading up that stuff regardless if it's native to DS or Poser. So no, I wouldn't stop using DAZ Studio if all my legacy stuff stopped working, I'm smart enough to figure out what's going on and most of the time fix it myself or I ask about it but that's not been the case for me so far.

 

[eclark1894]

I agree, if backwards compatibility restricts new features that also limits potential sales. I think my only concern is if the changes impact an ongoing project. For example, if you are trying to tell a story you want to be consistent throughout so when I switched from V4 to Dawn I had to create a new character and then go back and redo the renders I had done with V4, but at least that was possible, if time consuming. If a new version of Poser converted my old scenes so they could still be used in the latest version that would be fine but if the changes mean I cannot load an old scene I think I would question upgrading.

Poser 11 is a good example, if i was illustrating a book there might be an issue if I suddenly went from Firefly to Superfly but Poser 11 gives me the option to continue with Firefly or update to Superfly and rework old scenes if I wanted to but to do that I must be able to load the old scene which, of course, I can. I am less concerned if, when saved, that scene can only be used in the latest version, such things happen in software all the time.

Personally, I think the customer base is to blame. They don't want to move forward with any really revolutionary figures, ( and no, I'm not talking about Genesis, and they want to continue using old content because they don't want to go out and buy new stuff.

LOL I do get you!! I meant that more as a figure of speech.

I get you, too. For instance I'm not a big fan of phones in general, but Apple can kiss my Sweet Bippy if they think I'm spending a $1000 dollars for a phone.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Personally, I think the customer base is to blame. They don't want to move forward with any really revolutionary figures, ( and no, I'm not talking about Genesis, and they want to continue using old content because they don't want to go out and buy new stuff.

Oh, I don't think that's true at all. There are some who will cling to V4 from now to eternity, but most users? And, frankly, I see that as a vendor issue more than a customer issue. Too many vendors simply refuse to change their content creation routine and MRs. I get that they have a lot invested, but so the heck did I. Learning weight mapping was time consuming work, but the truth is that weight map rigging is just soooooo much easier!

Heck, if "users won't buy new stuff" were true, Poser users wouldn't be moving to DS, now would they?

 

[Hornet3d]

I think a lot of Poser users are happy to move on the revolutionary new figures but they are not convinced they should come from SM. Many think any development time that SM has should be spent in revolutionary new features and leave the figures to someone else.

 

[Glitterati3D]

I think a lot of Poser users are happy to move on the revolutionary new figures but they are not convinced they should come from SM. Many think any development time that SM has should be spent in revolutionary new features and leave the figures to someone else.

And, I think those users are correct. SM should give up figure creation. They don't invest the necessary resources or time for them and they should just stop creating inferior product that no one will use.

 

[eclark1894]

And, I think those users are correct. SM should give up figure creation. They don't invest the necessary resources or time for them and they should just stop creating inferior product that no one will use.

Actually Traci, I agree with you.

 

[Ken1171]

I think the reason DAZ has created DS was to NOT depend on Poser to exist as a company. In the same way, SMS doesn't want - or no longer can - depend on DAZ for Poser to exist, and that's why they need at least one pair of figures to become mainstream. The problem with SMS was demonstrated on the Poser 11 release - they are simply not willing to invest the necessary time and money for that to happen. Pauline was rushed in, and Paul wasn't even rigged at release date, which shows their lack of commitment to their own decision.

Now when it comes to V4, I think a main reason why vendors and users still use her is because DAZ didn't introduce any new figures for YEARS after her release, giving people enough time to build a large library just for her. Add to that the massive JCMs fiasco DAZ was just coming from with the Mil3 figures, which made rigging a nightmare. They fixed that by removing ALL JCMs from Mil4 figures, making rigging much simpler and faster.

When Genesis came out, it was back to JCMs, so I can see why people wouldn't want to go there. The last 2 Genesis versions have increased the number of JCMs back how to how it was with Mil3 figures, and then some more. The reason why Genesis 3 and later have so many JCMs is because they now use a single weight map per joint, so they can't pose correctly without relying on correction morphs for every part. And this, my friends, goes back to the JCMs nightmare we had before Mil4 figures - the rigging terror.

One more reason people might hold on to V4 is that DAZ is spitting out a new Genesis way too fast for its own good, scaring the customers away. If I remember this right, people were happy with the original Genesis, but then Genesis 2 came out like 6 months later. I think we already had 2 or 3 new Genesis figures released just after Dawn came in. And maybe it's just me, but as a vendor, DAZ's decision to throw TriAx rigging away just pushed me away. To say that I don't like the new single map "game engine" rigging is an understatement. If DAZ has decided to become a video game assets store, it's not for me anymore.

Yet another reason vendors may like to create for V4 is that she uses legacy rigging, which is Poser/DS agnostic. She works in both programs, so if they want to release the product for Poser and DS, they only need to create 2 sets of materials. V4 is from before the Poser/DS split, when things were still simple. Can't have that with any of the newer weight mapped figures, be it Dawn, Pauline, or Genesis.

I could keep going on with more and more reasons, but I think this shows it's not a single one.

 

[Miss B]

One more reason people might hold on to V4 is that DAZ is spitting out a new Genesis way too fast for its own good, scaring the customers away. If I remember this right, people were happy with the original Genesis, but then Genesis 2 came out like 6 months later.

That's when I started to leave DAZ (the store) behind, though for me it was because I liked the idea of one androgynous character which could be used for either male or female characters. I also didn't like yet ANOTHER version of clothing I already had for several versions of Vicky. They just weren't producing anything really new.

And maybe it's just me, but as a vendor, DAZ's decision to throw TriAx rigging away just pushed me away. To say that I don't like the new single map "game engine" rigging is an understatement. If DAZ has decided to become a video game assets store, it's not for me anymore.

Yes, I've noticed the larger than life notice on several PA's product pages called "Interactive License". I'm assuming it's similar to the Extended License I see for some products at Renderosity, just more expensive.

 

[eclark1894]

I think the reason DAZ has created DS was to NOT depend on Poser to exist as a company. In the same way, SMS doesn't want - or no longer can - depend on DAZ for Poser to exist, and that's why they need at least one pair of figures to become mainstream. The problem with SMS was demonstrated on the Poser 11 release - they are simply not willing to invest the necessary time and money for that to happen. Pauline was rushed in, and Paul wasn't even rigged at release date, which shows their lack of commitment to their own decision.

Now when it comes to V4, I think a main reason why vendors and users still use her is because DAZ didn't introduce any new figures for YEARS after her release, giving people enough time to build a large library just for her. Add to that the massive JCMs fiasco DAZ was just coming from with the Mil3 figures, which made rigging a nightmare. They fixed that by removing ALL JCMs from Mil4 figures, making rigging much simpler and faster.

When Genesis came out, it was back to JCMs, so I can see why people wouldn't want to go there. The last 2 Genesis versions have increased the number of JCMs back how to how it was with Mil3 figures, and then some more. The reason why Genesis 3 and later have so many JCMs is because they now use a single weight map per joint, so they can't pose correctly without relying on correction morphs for every part. And this, my friends, goes back to the JCMs nightmare we had before Mil4 figures - the rigging terror.

One more reason people might hold on to V4 is that DAZ is spitting out a new Genesis way too fast for its own good, scaring the customers away. If I remember this right, people were happy with the original Genesis, but then Genesis 2 came out like 6 months later. I think we already had 2 or 3 new Genesis figures released just after Dawn came in. And maybe it's just me, but as a vendor, DAZ's decision to throw TriAx rigging away just pushed me away. To say that I don't like the new single map "game engine" rigging is an understatement. If DAZ has decided to become a video game assets store, it's not for me anymore.

Yet another reason vendors may like to create for V4 is that she uses legacy rigging, which is Poser/DS agnostic. She works in both programs, so if they want to release the product for Poser and DS, they only need to create 2 sets of materials. V4 is from before the Poser/DS split, when things were still simple. Can't have that with any of the newer weight mapped figures, be it Dawn, Pauline, or Genesis.

I could keep going on with more and more reasons, but I think this shows it's not a single one.

I only have two arguments with your assessment, Ken. I'm having a "debate" to put it mildly, in the Renderosity Poser Forum with people who for some reason just wanted to Dump on Poser that incorporates some of this history. I didn't use Genesis 1 and still don't use Genesis so I can't speak to whether people were happy with her or not, but I believe a common complaint was primarily with the adrogeny of the figure and making clothes for men and women with the same figure. I always thought that was the reason why Genesis 2 brought back the split genders. Base mesh.

As for your V4 assessment. Objects work in both programs, but for some reason, particularly lately it seems any Poser materials they were including in sets are being phased out. I find it hard to believe that all the vendors got together and made this decision alone, but I've been told otherwise. At least that was my takeaway.

 

[Miss B]

I believe a common complaint was primarily with the adrogeny of the figure and making clothes for men and women with the same figure. I always thought that was the reason why Genesis 2 brought back the split genders.

I had heard the same thing years ago. Not having tried to create clothing back then, I couldn't tell what the difference would be, but evidently regular clothing creators at the time were finding it easier to produce clothing sets for separate figures.

 

[Hornet3d]

I think the reason DAZ has created DS was to NOT depend on Poser to exist as a company. In the same way, SMS doesn't want - or no longer can - depend on DAZ for Poser to exist, and that's why they need at least one pair of figures to become mainstream. The problem with SMS was demonstrated on the Poser 11 release - they are simply not willing to invest the necessary time and money for that to happen. Pauline was rushed in, and Paul wasn't even rigged at release date, which shows their lack of commitment to their own decision.

Now when it comes to V4, I think a main reason why vendors and users still use her is because DAZ didn't introduce any new figures for YEARS after her release, giving people enough time to build a large library just for her. Add to that the massive JCMs fiasco DAZ was just coming from with the Mil3 figures, which made rigging a nightmare. They fixed that by removing ALL JCMs from Mil4 figures, making rigging much simpler and faster.

When Genesis came out, it was back to JCMs, so I can see why people wouldn't want to go there. The last 2 Genesis versions have increased the number of JCMs back how to how it was with Mil3 figures, and then some more. The reason why Genesis 3 and later have so many JCMs is because they now use a single weight map per joint, so they can't pose correctly without relying on correction morphs for every part. And this, my friends, goes back to the JCMs nightmare we had before Mil4 figures - the rigging terror.

One more reason people might hold on to V4 is that DAZ is spitting out a new Genesis way too fast for its own good, scaring the customers away. If I remember this right, people were happy with the original Genesis, but then Genesis 2 came out like 6 months later. I think we already had 2 or 3 new Genesis figures released just after Dawn came in. And maybe it's just me, but as a vendor, DAZ's decision to throw TriAx rigging away just pushed me away. To say that I don't like the new single map "game engine" rigging is an understatement. If DAZ has decided to become a video game assets store, it's not for me anymore.

Yet another reason vendors may like to create for V4 is that she uses legacy rigging, which is Poser/DS agnostic. She works in both programs, so if they want to release the product for Poser and DS, they only need to create 2 sets of materials. V4 is from before the Poser/DS split, when things were still simple. Can't have that with any of the newer weight mapped figures, be it Dawn, Pauline, or Genesis.

I could keep going on with more and more reasons, but I think this shows it's not a single one.

As a hobbyist it is great to see the situation from a wider perspective and your description of creating for the different figures is interesting. I can relate to the introduction of figures being too rapid and I think many forget just how much has already been spent by many hobbyists on clothing for V4. Like Miss B I am not keen to spend out for another version of a particular outfit when I have already paid out for the original version.

It took me a long while to move from V4 to Dawn but I did at the time Dawn SE came out, one of the reasons I did was because the clothes I already had for Dawn would work with Dawn SE and this was a good indicator for the future. I still use my V4 content on Dawn, why not, like many over the years the total cost would buy me a decent car these days, and the fitting room in Poser made that easy to do.

I don't think my reliance on V4 content has stopped, or will stop me using more advanced figures in future, but I need to see what benefits the new figure gives me and some indication that the said figure will be abandoned in what a hobbyist would regard, short term.

 

[Deleted member 325]

I just wanted to say - as I see the argument come up a lot - regarding Poser not moving foreward because it is maintaining backward compatibility-
This mindset is completely inaccurate. So many 3D applications, and especially any of the high end professional grade ones that have been around since the beginning and still are, have moved forward adding scads of powerful new features and still can use content created with their earlier versions. I can still load any scene I not only created in Lightwave 2.0 or 3.0 but on a non-PC into Lightwave 11 or 2015 on a PC. I can still load my scenes from Vue 6 into Vue 10 (the last version I supported). To say I am doubtful that maintaining the ability to continue to use legacy content is what is holding the software back would be an epic understatement.

What bothers me far more is trying to request certain very powerful aritstic tools time and again both from the developers or in the official forums meets with derision and hostility from those who do not understand how those tools work or what they do. If Poser is to continue as a graphics tool where it is focusing on final artistic renders and not just a figure reference tool, it NEEDS to add Metanurbs (for gas, liquid, fire, and ambiance effects) and Particles (for flocking, and also to aid in using Metas for Liquid, Gaseous, fire effects). These are two incredibly powerful tools for animation and graphic 3D art that almost every other serious 3D application has had for at least a decade, and many have had for more than 2 (Lightwave added Metanurbs in version 5 in 1995, 3DSMax and Maya already had it by then...Lightwave has had various plugins for Particles since 1992).

Among other improvements I would love to see include expanded procedurals and expanded positioning and scaling options for several of the existing one, proper post-process lense flares and glow effects (again something almost every other serious animation or 3D illustration program has), and the ability to have more than 1 document open for editing at a time (at least in the pro version). None of these would prevent the use of legacy content, all would add a lot of artistic versatility to the program.

 

[Ken1171]

I believe a common complaint was primarily with the adrogeny of the figure and making clothes for men and women with the same figure. I always thought that was the reason why Genesis 2 brought back the split genders. Base mesh.

That is correct on my account. Imagine creating a simple shirt for the original Genesis. The male and female shapes and topologies are quite different, but the shirt has to fit both. It is inevitable that there will be stretching on either shapes, and in some cases insufficient geometry, since there were no boobs poking out when it was modeled. It's like modeling for a shape that is not there. It's hard enough when we can see it, so it's a challenge to produce good results, and people who buy the product don't know or care about that. This is why the customer side claims not to understand what went wrong - they never had to deal with the ugly side of it.

As for your V4 assessment. Objects work in both programs, but for some reason, particularly lately it seems any Poser materials they were including in sets are being phased out. I find it hard to believe that all the vendors got together and made this decision alone, but I've been told otherwise. At least that was my takeaway.

DAZ is not crazy about encouraging their vendors to support Poser. And it doesn't stop with Poser support - they also forbid anything related to HW figures as well. The tone at the DAZ forums is that "Poser is dead - why do you even bother?". I still remember back in 2013, when DAZ claimed HW wouldn't last a year. Would you be surprised if DAZ quite Poser support altogether?

If Poser is to continue as a graphics tool where it is focusing on final artistic renders and not just a figure reference tool, it NEEDS to add Metanurbs (for gas, liquid, fire, and ambiance effects) and Particles (for flocking, and also to aid in using Metas for Liquid, Gaseous, fire effects).

I would just like to add that Autodesk 3DSMAX is WAY higher end, WAY more expensive, and WAY more professional than Poser as a tool, and even they took ages to incorporate some kind of decent particle dynamics to the package. Fluids dynamics is still very expensive, even for 3DSMAX. However, we already have Poser plugins that provide particle effects, some of which are sold right here at HW. They provide smoke, fire, snow, rain, water splashes, and what not.

 

[tparo]

''DAZ is not crazy about encouraging their vendors to support Poser. And it doesn't stop with Poser support - they also forbid anything related to HW figures as well. The tone at the DAZ forums is that "Poser is dead - why do you even bother?". I still remember back in 2013, when DAZ claimed HW wouldn't last a year. Would you be surprised if DAZ quite Poser support altogether?''

Strong words - do you have any actual evidence to support your claims or is it just your opinion.

 

[Ken1171]

Strong words - do you have any actual evidence to support your claims or is it just your opinion.

I suppose you are aware that it was DAZ3D's decision to depart from the Poser market, and all the hostilities that happened between the 2 sides of the wall ever since? This was one of the reasons why many of us came to join HW - to get out of the crossfire. This is bigger than my personal opinion.

As for DAZ declining any product created for HW figures, it's just the way it is. That again is their decision, no matter what opinions people may have about it.

 

[eclark1894]

That is correct on my account. Imagine creating a simple shirt for the original Genesis. The male and female shapes and topologies are quite different, but the shirt has to fit both. It is inevitable that there will be stretching on either shapes, and in some cases insufficient geometry, since there were no boobs poking out when it was modeled. It's like modeling for a shape that is not there. It's hard enough when we can see it, so it's a challenge to produce good results, and people who buy the product don't know or care about that. This is why the customer side claims not to understand what went wrong - they never had to deal with the ugly side of it.



DAZ is not crazy about encouraging their vendors to support Poser. And it doesn't stop with Poser support - they also forbid anything related to HW figures as well. The tone at the DAZ forums is that "Poser is dead - why do you even bother?". I still remember back in 2013, when DAZ claimed HW wouldn't last a year. Would you be surprised if DAZ quite Poser support altogether?



I would just like to add that Autodesk 3DSMAX is WAY higher end, WAY more expensive, and WAY more professional than Poser as a tool, and even they took ages to incorporate some kind of decent particle dynamics to the package. Fluids dynamics is still very expensive, even for 3DSMAX. However, we already have Poser plugins that provide particle effects, some of which are sold right here at HW. They provide smoke, fire, snow, rain, water splashes, and what not.

Actually, they may get particles as soon as the next version of Poser. Now that's just me being speculative, but since Poser's Bullet Physics engine comes from a third party, Bullet Physics.org, I went to see if they had any extra info on the physics engine and read that they were trying to get it to work with particles. Sounds like they're pretty close to having something.

 

[phdubrov]

Bullet part of Poser was not updated with P11, so no telling here IMHO.

 

[Ken1171]

Indeed, there is some expectations that Poser 12 will update both Cycles and the Bullet physics engine. Both are outdated in Poser 11. Among other things, Blender3D 2.79 has introduced shadow catcher and micro-poly displacement for Cycles, and the Bullet engine has a whole new version with new features.

 

[eclark1894]

Indeed, there is some expectations that Poser 12 will update both Cycles and the Bullet physics engine. Both are outdated in Poser 11. Among other things, Blender3D 2.79 has introduced shadow catcher and micro-poly displacement for Cycles, and the Bullet engine has a whole new version with new features.

As I understand it, Bullet Physics just released a 3dsMax plugin for the Bullet Engine for Particles 5.
Also Cebas released the 3ds Max plugin thinkingParticles 5 and it features Bullet Physics. Check it out here: Welcome to cebas VISUAL TECHNOLOGY Inc.