Official Announcement: DAZ terminates agreement to publish HiveWire 3D animals!

[eclark1894]

You know, the funny thing is that when I first said "Let it go" I was actually addressing both sides. The point was not that people should develop a "thicker skin" or "get over it", but to stop ratcheting things up. Everybody always says that someone has to be the first to extend the olive branch. Well, now we know why so many wars are always being fought. You can't let the other guy get the last word in. Well, you know what, I'm going to take my own advice and let it go. I really no longer care what any of you say or who's feelings get hurt. I won't be attempting to stop any flame wars, or anything. I'm done, starting with this thread.

 

[Alisa]

You know, the funny thing is that when I first said "Let it go" I was actually addressing both sides. The point was not that people should develop a "thicker skin" or "get over it", but to stop ratcheting things up. Everybody always says that someone has to be the first to extend the olive branch. Well, now we know why so many wars are always being fought. You can't let the other guy get the last word in. Well, you know what, I'm going to take my own advice and let it go. I really no longer care what any of you say or who's feelings get hurt. I won't be attempting to stop any flame wars, or anything. I'm done, starting with this thread.

Earl, please don't go away ...mad or otherwise. You are ALSO a valued member of this community. You definitely have a good point that ratcheting it up is not helpful either. And I didn't take your post to be saying to develop a thicker skin or get over it - I was talking in general about what people often say to justify things.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I'm honestly don't think I'd be offended if Poser were substituted for DS in a post mimicking the plot of Lord of the Rings. I sure can sympathize with someone who struggles with Poser and ends up feeling it should be tossed in a fire.

I've felt that way about a LOT of software that has nothing to do with 3D. Software that other people have absolutely no problem using. There are days I wish I could throw Microsoft Excel into the Fires of Mordor ... and I far prefer Excel to every other spreadsheet type software I've tried. Say what you will about Microsoft (and yes, I find it annoying when people type Micro$oft instead of Microsoft), they have made a lot of things sooo much easier.


Since I'm a Poser user, I probably notice the digs about Poser far more than someone who doesn't like Poser would. More likely, I also don't recognize some digs at DS as being negative statements. I'd probably read ... DS is cumbersome, and think nothing of it. Because I do find certain aspects of DS cumbersome FOR ME.

But when I read Poser is cumbersome ... the words kinda start flaming. Unless ... they are followed with "for me," or preceded with "some features." Then ... I just nod and think ... yeah. I can see where some of the features could be cumbersome for another. A few features of Poser are cumbersome for me too! It may even be the same features, in which case I'd think ... BROTHER OF ANOTHER MOTHER! Or some such silly connection thingie.

I do a lot of self editing when I post. Because I know there are people here who may read it differently than what I intended. I've even rewritten this post a dozen times because I know it's likely someone will take it as criticism or an attack.

I've also any number of times left off really important words that completely change the tone of my post from something rather neutral to something terribly negative.

I am really sorry some people feel uncomfortable expressing themselves at HiveWire. Having experienced that elsewhere ... it just plain sucks.

 

[Miss B]

Oh, yeah, I do have one thing.

What would happen if we eliminated the need to choose a "side"? What if there were no "sides" to choose from?

Life would be EXTREMELY dull, that's for sure. It's our differences that make us interesting, and expressing those differences civilly, is most appreciated by all.

Oh, and as a side note . . . our new membership is up to 66 new members since this all started. WAY TO GO HIVEWIRE!!

 

[Hornet3d]

You know, the funny thing is that when I first said "Let it go" I was actually addressing both sides. The point was not that people should develop a "thicker skin" or "get over it", but to stop ratcheting things up. Everybody always says that someone has to be the first to extend the olive branch. Well, now we know why so many wars are always being fought. You can't let the other guy get the last word in. Well, you know what, I'm going to take my own advice and let it go. I really no longer care what any of you say or who's feelings get hurt. I won't be attempting to stop any flame wars, or anything. I'm done, starting with this thread.

I can well understand if your last line was said in the heat of the moment, or put another way, I hope it was said in the heat of the moment. Your suggestion to let it go was clearly aimed at both sides and I thought then as I still do now, that is was good advice. I made the comment that in some cases this may not help not as a criticism of you or your suggestion but more as trying to see the other side and suggesting why a response may have been worded as it was.

I know would not be alone if feeling Hivewire would be loosing an asset if you either left or changed the way you have contributed in the past. By all means let this thread go but please consider parking it somewhere as an aberration of what is the norm for Hivewire and continue as before.

Just in case anyone is trying to read between the lines, don't bother there is nothing to read other than a request to a valued member of this forum to continue to be so.

 

[Willowisp]

(and yes, I find it annoying when people type Micro$oft instead of Microsoft)

I use a third variation of the spelling - which I'm probably not allowed to use on this forum

 

[theschell]

I'm honestly don't think I'd be offended if Poser were substituted for DS in a post mimicking the plot of Lord of the Rings. I sure can sympathize with someone who struggles with Poser and ends up feeling it should be tossed in a fire.

I've felt that way about a LOT of software that has nothing to do with 3D. Software that other people have absolutely no problem using. There are days I wish I could throw Microsoft Excel into the Fires of Mordor ... and I far prefer Excel to every other spreadsheet type software I've tried. Say what you will about Microsoft (and yes, I find it annoying when people type Micro$oft instead of Microsoft), they have made a lot of things sooo much easier.


Since I'm a Poser user, I probably notice the digs about Poser far more than someone who doesn't like Poser would. More likely, I also don't recognize some digs at DS as being negative statements. I'd probably read ... DS is cumbersome, and think nothing of it. Because I do find certain aspects of DS cumbersome FOR ME.

But when I read Poser is cumbersome ... the words kinda start flaming. Unless ... they are followed with "for me," or preceded with "some features." Then ... I just nod and think ... yeah. I can see where some of the features could be cumbersome for another. A few features of Poser are cumbersome for me too! It may even be the same features, in which case I'd think ... BROTHER OF ANOTHER MOTHER! Or some such silly connection thingie.

I do a lot of self editing when I post. Because I know there are people here who may read it differently than what I intended. I've even rewritten this post a dozen times because I know it's likely someone will take it as criticism or an attack.

I've also any number of times left off really important words that completely change the tone of my post from something rather neutral to something terribly negative.

I am really sorry some people feel uncomfortable expressing themselves at HiveWire. Having experienced that elsewhere ... it just plain sucks.

I have days with DS that I swear I'd like to just nuke my computer and be done with it... equally I have days like that with Poser... since I work with both in my production flow. I feel that way some days working with Hexagon too, specially when it throws a glitch and I lose a lot of hard work because I hadn't taken time to save as often as I aught have. I keep plugging away at it, because on a really good day I can do some amazing things when all 3 programs are brought together in just the right way at just the right time. Are there things I wish each of my programs did better, you bet, could I do what I do without them.... absolutely not!

On the idea of one program getting flamed over another, or people complaining loudly about certain company's actions... I think many companies could probably avoid that if they made more effort to listen and interact with the people that they provide service for (and I'm not just thinking in our minute corner). Instead of blocking negative threads or those expressing dissatisfaction, more might be accomplished by trying to address those concerns in a way that the users feel they are being listened to, in a public way where others will see that positive involvement to find a resolution... if that makes any sense?

 

[Hornet3d]

I agree on the kindness, it still does exist. Unfortunately it doesn't often make it into web forums...
I think a good tactics would be to think: "If the same thing was said about the person/software/company I happen to like, would I feel offended by it?" If yes, then don't post it.

I've been following this thread on and off for some time now, have started to reply several times and then discarded it, but now I have reached the point where I really want to make a comment.
I do think that HW in general are indeed open to and for everyone, but I have the impression that there are a handful of users who have such a passionate dislike towards one software/company that they - perhaps unintentionally - create an atmosphere that feels uncomfortable to users, customers and business partners of said company. Nice affirmations about everyone being welcome don't help to disspel that impression...

I can only talk for myself, of course, and my impression naturally is subjective, but I feel that my opinions may be tolerated here (because that's the politically correct thing to do, with free speech and all), but not really welcome or even appreciated, because of the software I use and the shop where I sell most of my stuff.
I see a lot of people complaining about X being bashed, but not protesting in any way, even cheering along, when the bashing goes against Y. (For X and Y, insert company or software names of your choice, whatever fits in your case )
The silent consensus, as I read it out of this thread, seems to be that bashing is ok as long as it goes against the "right" side. If someone complains about it, they're just told to "let it go" - implying that the complainant should get a thicker skin and not disrupt the nice discussion, basically blaming them for introducing negativity while they were only pointing it out. From other comments I gathered that this was the treatment that offended people so much at a certain other site...?
In a really open, friendly and welcoming environment no bashing would be happening, against nobody and nothing.

Actually, to "let it go" is great advice, if it were applied by both "sides". So I'll follow that advice and end my musings here. I have no hard feelings against anyone or anything, and I hope I haven't offended anybody with my sincerity, just wanted to offer some insights from my point of view

Well, like you, I can only speak for myself, but I value your opinion and there is no one here that I just tolerate. I don't always agree but that is a very different matter. Your reading of the silent consensus may well be right or it may just be that many have distinct views but are very wary of adding anything in the fear they may only make matters worse. If that is true that is a shame because I think that anyone's views is as valid as anybody else but I would understand the fear. Far from be offended by sincerity I welcome it and I have a great respect for anyone putting their genuine thoughts forward even if I disagree with everything they have said.

I have a very much glass half full, glass half empty, view of this thread so far. I am concerned that others have been upset due to things said in this thread but considering what generated the comments I think it has been better handled here, by everyone, than it would have been elsewhere.

I don't know what else I can say convey the my assertion that people's views are appreciated, irrespective of the software they use, where they shop or who the make content for. I sincerely value everyone's opinion and, although I can't prove it, I do not feel I am alone in that, not here at Hivewire anyway.

 

[theschell]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather spend money with a company that says "OK, we know you had some issues, lets see what we can do to fix it...", than a place where I go in with a complaint and they give the impression that I'm just another dollar in the register...

 

[Alisa]

I've never thought of burning software, or my computer.

However, that's because of being (as you see from my avatar info) " A hop, skip & jump above the Strait of Juan de Fuca"

I MAY have suggested to hubby on a FEW occasions *cough cough* over the years, when frustrated with issues with it, Poser, DAZ Studio, a number of other programs, or just the current OS I was using, taking my @#$#% computer a block north of us and tossing them over the cliff into the Strait.

I know would not be alone if feeling Hivewire would be loosing an asset if you either left or changed the way you have contributed in the past. By all means let this thread go but please consider parking it somewhere as an aberration of what is the norm for Hivewire and continue as before.

Just in case anyone is trying to read between the lines, don't bother there is nothing to read other than a request to a valued member of this forum to continue to be so.

I sincerely value everyone's opinion and, although I can't prove it, I do not feel I am alone in that, not here at Hivewire anyway.

Hornet, nicely stated as usual!! You're definitely not alone in feeling that way in either post!

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I know I feel less confrontational and upset when I'm allowed to voice when an action has upset me. Otherwise, it festers and festers and festers ... and when I do let it out ... it's Vesuvius.

On the idea of one program getting flamed over another, or people complaining loudly about certain company's actions... I think many companies could probably avoid that if they made more effort to listen and interact with the people that they provide service for (and I'm not just thinking in our minute corner). Instead of blocking negative threads or those expressing dissatisfaction, more might be accomplished by trying to address those concerns in a way that the users feel they are being listened to, in a public way where others will see that positive involvement to find a resolution... if that makes any sense?

 

[Hornet3d]

When a company, any company, by its actions shows an attitude of maliciousness and misinformation can we expect its supporters to do any different? I'd have to say over-all though that what's happened with attitudes in our online community is a direct spill-over from attitudes on the street. We live in an era where people actively seek things to be offended over, and where anything can be taken not only as a personal insult, but used as an excuse for claims of discrimination and injustice. We also live in an era that focuses on instant gratification, where the common belief is that things are owed from the day we're born, rather than earned by hard work. It's also an age where, for what-ever reason, people have decided that their personal rights over-ride the rights of everyone around them, and where respect must be given but not returned... Honestly I think that in general we're in a sad state of affairs these days... I mean seriously, now days we need "safe places" for people to go when life issues get to hard to handle, so that people can hide from life rather than learning to deal with things and just moving on. Back when I was younger if life got hard we were taught to deal with it and move on, we were taught that you had to earn the rights and respect you get, and that nothing in life comes free...

I read this with some amusement, not that your words were funny more from the fact I think I could have written the very same post as I often feel the same. There are also moment when I find I have to remind myself that, while this is certainly true for some those that act in that way are going to get far more publicity that those that are not. This is bound to skew opinions and, for the large part I do not blame the people, more the laziness of the media or the endless drive to dumb down everything reported. That said, that is my view and the reader should keep in mind that I am of the age where the 'grumpy old man syndrome' is well established and that will colour anything I say.

 

[Hornet3d]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather spend money with a company that says "OK, we know you had some issues, lets see what we can do to fix it...", than a place where I go in with a complaint and they give the impression that I'm just another dollar in the register...

If it is me I would say I would say yes, I feel exactly like you do. I like to think my custom in valued and not just on 3D art circles. I said something very similar in another forum and one response was, "I am not prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face, I have no emotional connection with any company and if I like the content I am gong to buy it irrespective of my views of the company." It wouldn't work for me but I couldn't think of an argument then, and some months on I still can't now, for many it is the way they do business.

 

[AllenArt]

Here's how I feel about the whole Poser/DS thing: I tried to use DS for many years. About every 6 months, like clockwork, I'd install DS, try and use it, fail miserably and uninstall it . Until this last time. I swore I was going to learn it or else. Well, I'm now handicapped and home all the time, so I had lots of time on my hands. After awhile I discovered I liked DS. It made the whole 3D hobby - which I've been in for more than 20 years btw - seem fresh to me again. With Poser, all I was really doing was just making stuff FOR Poser and never doing images anymore. While I did like making things for Poser, it was getting to be monotonous. This is NOT to say that there are not things I miss about Poser. Some things in DS frustrate the heck out of me because I wish there was a Poser tool in it that would make things sooooo much easier . I terribly miss the ease of Poser dynamic cloth, and even though I didn't use the hair room all that much it was certainly easier than using LAMH. And a morph brush. I'd almost kill for a DS morph brush JUST as it works in Poser . There are times when I do miss Poser and I actually purchased PoserPro 11 and have played with it a bit.

Having said all that, I am not married to EITHER piece of software. If a better alternative than both of them arrived tomorrow I'd be on board. I'm not super crazy about the companies that own either software, even if I loved the software that they each produced. Kind of like, I'm not super crazy about my ex husband but I love our kids kind of thing . And by switching from Poser to DS, I wasn't out to hurt anyone. What I was out to do was to fill my long boring days with something to keep me from going stir crazy. DS happens at this moment to fit the bill, but who knows about tomorrow? I really do hate to hear people fighting over the two these days. After having not one but two cancer scares this year, I realize that there's much more to my life than two little pieces of software that move virtual figures around, no matter how much I enjoy them . I've said so many stupid things about one or the other. Now all I really want to do is just take the time to enjoy the one I've chosen. And I'd like everyone else to take the time to enjoy the one they've chosen - no matter which one that might be. And personally, I don't care which one it is as long as it makes YOU happy. Isn't that what we all really want?

Laurie

 

[Deleted member 325]

Alisa,
1. It wasn't my post. I didn't make it.
2. I thought it was a pretty clear joke. It's the plot to Lord of the Rings.

Heck, even Tparo said he realized that the poster was trying to be funny. And in either case, bashing Poser accomplished what exactly? Nothing. Every slight doesn't need to be responded to. Learn to let it go.

Yes, it was clearly meant as a joke. I didn't insult the software in any way, I didn't attack or insult it's users or supporters. Software I use, and not just Poser, gets attacked constantly in numerous places, and I have never felt personally insulted just figured those who do so do not like that software for whatever reason. I only get personally insulted when the users of the software are attacked or insulted, or someone is clearly looking to escalate something to a confrontation unnecessarily. I was trying to lighten the mood, and clearly some will not have it. This is why I do not post much in forums anymore because I am just sick of it. The same thing started at RDNA right before the merger when I posted actual supported and verifiable facts about both DS and DAZ as a company and people took offense and felt it was personally insulting somehow.

Not only was this a plot for Lord of the Rings, but a rather famous older meme among some circles from IRC days regarding Windows (search under "One OS to rule them all")

 

[Willowisp]

No matter where we go, there will always be 'us vs them' fights. It's just human nature, I think. Just think about Mac vs Windows, PC gamers vs consoles, Nvidia vs AMD etc. All we can do is rise above it.

That said: BETAMAX RULEZ!

 

[Hornet3d]

No matter where we go, there will always be 'us vs them' fights. It's just human nature, I think. Just think about Mac vs Windows, PC gamers vs consoles, Nvidia vs AMD etc. All we can do is rise above it.

That said: BETAMAX RULEZ!

I used to build kit cars for a hobby, not the most common of hobbies and you think builders would be interested in each other builds but even there the 'mine is better than yours' mob were quite evident. Such a shame when they all had skills the they could share.

 

[Hornet3d]

Here's how I feel about the whole Poser/DS thing: I tried to use DS for many years. About every 6 months, like clockwork, I'd install DS, try and use it, fail miserably and uninstall it . Until this last time. I swore I was going to learn it or else. Well, I'm now handicapped and home all the time, so I had lots of time on my hands. After awhile I discovered I liked DS. It made the whole 3D hobby - which I've been in for more than 20 years btw - seem fresh to me again. With Poser, all I was really doing was just making stuff FOR Poser and never doing images anymore. While I did like making things for Poser, it was getting to be monotonous. This is NOT to say that there are not things I miss about Poser. Some things in DS frustrate the heck out of me because I wish there was a Poser tool in it that would make things sooooo much easier . I terribly miss the ease of Poser dynamic cloth, and even though I didn't use the hair room all that much it was certainly easier than using LAMH. And a morph brush. I'd almost kill for a DS morph brush JUST as it works in Poser . There are times when I do miss Poser and I actually purchased PoserPro 11 and have played with it a bit.

Having said all that, I am not married to EITHER piece of software. If a better alternative than both of them arrived tomorrow I'd be on board. I'm not super crazy about the companies that own either software, even if I loved the software that they each produced. Kind of like, I'm not super crazy about my ex husband but I love our kids kind of thing . And by switching from Poser to DS, I wasn't out to hurt anyone. What I was out to do was to fill my long boring days with something to keep me from going stir crazy. DS happens at this moment to fit the bill, but who knows about tomorrow? I really do hate to hear people fighting over the two these days. After having not one but two cancer scares this year, I realize that there's much more to my life than two little pieces of software that move virtual figures around, no matter how much I enjoy them . I've said so many stupid things about one or the other. Now all I really want to do is just take the time to enjoy the one I've chosen. And I'd like everyone else to take the time to enjoy the one they've chosen - no matter which one that might be. And personally, I don't care which one it is as long as it makes YOU happy. Isn't that what we all really want?

Laurie

One thing that has surprised me is just how many people in the 3D art field are struggling with some severe illnesses and other life problems, I guess it is an escape from reality. I can't imagine just how important the hobby is for them or how little meaning the choice of software must have for them, as long as they can escape and find some fun and some comfort it matters not one jot.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I no see a hop, sip & jump above the Strait of Juan de Fuca! So ... I'd think you'd be more prone to setting the bees of war on your software or computer!

I've been known to threaten to throw mine out the window. It's only 6 floors down to the pool deck. It "might" survive. If I get some oof behind it ... I might make it far enough out from the building it would land on the street, which is 10 floors below!

I've never thought of burning software, or my computer.

However, that's because of being (as you see from my avatar info) " A hop, skip & jump above the Strait of Juan de Fuca"

I MAY have suggested to hubby on a FEW occasions *cough cough* over the years, when frustrated with issues with it, Poser, DAZ Studio, a number of other programs, or just the current OS I was using, taking my @#$#% computer a block north of us and tossing them over the cliff into the Strait.

 

[Willowisp]

My personal preference for threatening the computer is magnets. My partner has some really strong ones laying around (seriously, put it on the fridge and it never comes off)