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A question or more on P11

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
You don't "have" to make separate Superfly materials for Poser 11 except for skin, eyes, fingernails, etc. Those will all render silver in Superfly without conversion, but Snarly's EZSkin3 makes that easy.

So this is absolutely correct, but I thought I'd add an addition. Even if you are doing widely different things in Firefly and Superfly to achieve the same effect, you don't have to make two separate materials, although you may end up having two separate Root nodes. Basically earlier versions of Poser will ignore anything setup for Superfly. So with Glitterati's example, she could have one material set up for the jacket that had a Poser Surface node for Firefly and a Cycles Node for Superfly.

So you can just have one set of 'combined' mats, and don't have to have a folder of Firefly mats and Superfly mats. Of course with some really complex stuff like skin materials, which I only sort of understand, this may be a better way to go, and I sort of wonder if customer's 'expect' it because many people don't realize that Poser 11 will automatically choose the right nodes for each render engine.

I struggled with this a lot on my most recent release, because the majority of the materials didn't need a Firefly and a Superfly version to work fine, but. . . I wanted two sided materials available for Superfly users for parts were it was likely to show, but I also realized that some people might not want that, but a similar look as to what you get in Firefly where both sides of the fabric are the same. For instance, I really like the blue, because I work with fabric all the time and that so looks like the wrong side of fabric to me, but other people might just want the same blue on both sides, or not want all the yellow in some of the others in their renders. So the Superfly materials do one thing, but you can still use the other 'Firefly' materials to get the same look in a Superfly render if you want.



Now that I have Poser 11, what do I HAVE to install to make it usable for doing DS material conversions and Promo renders? I don't have a lot of space left on my computer

You should only need the basic Poser install, and I think the support files. But you defiantly don't have to install the animal and people packages etc. if you are only using it for your own stuff. The only downside I can think of to doing things this way is that you wouldn't be able to reference the materials that comes with Poser to see more about how they are put together.
 

Dakorillon (IMArts)

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
Gadget Girl (sorry!), That is a good point that I hadn't thought about. Maybe I can squeeze them on somewhere. I haven't even opened it up, yet! lol, the fear is strong... I never evened figured out how to do anything (literally! not even dress a figure) in Poser 5 and I'm sure Poser 11 is going to be 10 times more confusing. lol. So, this weekend, I'm going to put some extra effort in to charging the breach!
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Gadget Girl (sorry!), That is a good point that I hadn't thought about. Maybe I can squeeze them on somewhere. I haven't even opened it up, yet! lol, the fear is strong... I never evened figured out how to do anything (literally! not even dress a figure) in Poser 5 and I'm sure Poser 11 is going to be 10 times more confusing. lol. So, this weekend, I'm going to put some extra effort in to charging the breach!

Poser really isn't hard to work with, though it can be intimidating at first. But, you have a bunch of fellow Poser users here who will help with ANY questions you may have.

Just remember, the only "dumb" question is the one unasked.

Honestly, I would still say Poser 7 was much harder to learn than any version from P8 up.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Poser 5 was my first version, and I hated the UI lots. I switched to early versions of DS instead, but since coming back to Poser with Poser 9, and now PoserPro 11, the UI is much easier to get around in, and as Traci has stated, there's quite a large number of Poser users here to help with any questions you might have.
 

Dakorillon (IMArts)

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
That is very good to hear! Maybe I should start my own thread, "Dakorillon's Poser 11 NOT dumb questions for beginners." lol Then, the other beginners won't have to be embarrassed by asking NOT dumb questions, since I will have already done it! lol.

My first one is: Should I uninstall Poser 5? And can Poser 11 import the content that was in there?
 

seachnasaigh

Energetic
My first one is: Should I uninstall Poser 5?

No need to do that; they don't interfere with each other. My workstation Cameron has P5, P7, Pro2010, Pro2012, Pro2014, and P11Pro installed. I just use the older versions to check backward compatibility.

Can Poser 11 import the content that was in there?

Yes, just add the P5 runtime to P11's library. Bear in mind that on Win Vista and later (P11 requires Win7 or later), Windows' User Account Control will block attempts to write to that runtime in program files, but you can read from it, i.e., you can load things but not save to it.
Because of this, I installed P5 to a location outside of program files.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
I don't have P5 installed any more, as that was 2 computers ago, but I do still have my P9 installed, and have no intentions of uninstalling it.

As Seach mentioned, you can access your P5 library through the P11 library. As he also mentioned, it's not a good idea to have your Runtime, or in my case the whole software installation, in the Program Files directory on your computer. I have all my applications, both 2D and 3D in directories I set up at the C:\ root of my computer, and that way Windows' UAC doesn't get involved.
 

Dakorillon (IMArts)

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
Okay! I have added the P5 to the library in P11. And things are showing up. And I added the Daz3D Runtime folder to the library. So, babystepping.
Now I have to download all my hivewire stuff in Poser, since I never did that before! And finish downloading the content files. I may have to take a trip to the library where they have better download speeds! lol
 

kobaltkween

Brilliant
Contributing Artist
Just a word of warning: I have a very complete, very thoroughly tested library of materials for Firefly before P11. They don't render anything like they do in P11 in PP2014. I've tested several files made in PP2014 in P11. They're absolutely unacceptable to me. I would have to customize my Firefly material settings for P11 before I'd distribute them specifically for P11. In my experience, the reflections don't render _at all_ the same.

I'd suggest lots of testing before distributing the same Firefly materials for P11- as for P11+.

Just a suggestion: Superfly is Cycles, and Cycles works _very_ differently than Firefly. I would recommend learning to build proper Cycles materials at your own pace. I personally wouldn't even use the "Physical Surface" node, because removes a whole lot of control and doesn't handle things quite as accurately as you can on your own. It's cool as a crutch, but I _personally_ find it much better to understand a particular renderer and its peculiarities than depend on someone else's notion of, for instance, how to get Fresnel to work properly (kind of an issue in Cycles).
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
Just a suggestion: Superfly is Cycles, and Cycles works _very_ differently than Firefly. I would recommend learning to build proper Cycles materials at your own pace. I personally wouldn't even use the "Physical Surface" node, because removes a whole lot of control and doesn't handle things quite as accurately as you can on your own. It's cool as a crutch, but I _personally_ find it much better to understand a particular renderer and its peculiarities than depend on someone else's notion of, for instance, how to get Fresnel to work properly (kind of an issue in Cycles).

Hmm, I'd never thought of things in that way. I'll probably start looking at some cycles tutorials just for this reason, because I admit I don't understand it, and thinking about it this way, it sounds like it would help me a lot.

But there are two things to consider for someone just learning Poser. I never really messed with Firefly until Superfly came along, and I had to figure out how to 'fix' my materials so they would render in Superfly. That made learning the Physical Surface Node easier because they share similarities and it doesn't feel like a totally different beast. Also I find that I can make some nice materials with it, without a lot of other nodes, where as all Cycles Nodes I've gotten from other sources are much more complex.

Also, although there aren't tons of tutorials out there about the Physical Surface Node there are some really good ones. I know, there are probably thousands of tutorials and example nodes for Cycles out there because Blender is so heavily used. The trouble is, Blender is heavily used for the game industry. A lot of times when I've tried to look up how to do something in Cycles, I mostly get articles on how I should not do it that way, because in a game it would slow down rendering and be too resource intensive. Which is totally valid if you are doing real time rendering of any sort, but that's not what I'm doing in Poser. It's not that the information isn't out there, but I find when I search for Poser specific things, I tend to find better answers, and for whatever reason, it seems like they more often use the Physical Surface Node than the Cycles node.

Of course that's just personal experience, and like I said, I'm thinking I want to start watching some blender tutorials on Cycles because you make a really good point about understanding the underlying engine.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
I have watched the free SMS webinar where have they explained the Physical Surface node in detail, and since then I have used it almost exclusively in my personal work. Anything related to skin, glass and metals is super easy to make with it, as opposed to big piles of complex FF shaders. The reason why FF skin shaders are so large and complex is because they try to emulate a lot of things that the Physical Surface node can handle automatically because, like the name states, it's physically-based. It doesn't have to emulate anything, and even SSS is already built in and super easy to handle. In comparison, a skin shader in FF requires dozens of nodes, while the Physical Surface needs only itself and the texture maps. Everything else is already included. I love it!

As for backwards compatibility, SMS *claims* any material we create with SF nodes will be simply ignored in previous versions - it won't break anything. So the idea is to create single shaders with FF and SF roots, and left Poser do its work automatically. Of course, I love the Physical Surface, but it's not compatible with previous versions, so I have to also create FF shaders for store products. In either case, there is no need to make to make 2 separate materials for FF and SF - just make 1 with 2 root nodes. Poser automatically handles all the rest for you. Just make sure you start with a FF root, and then add an extra SF root to make it specific for P11.

As a side note, if you are creating products for Sora, remember she already comes with Unimesh skinning and Pixar Subdivision Surfaces applied, so she only works in P10 and P11. This means Sora products can rely on SubDs and we don't have to worry about it not working in P9 or older versions anymore. I understand all future HW releases will be P10+ from now on.

If you are new to Poser, and would like to learn the general workflow and interface, I have a free tutorial (http://fav.me/d1w2f7t) covering ALL the basics in 13 chapters at DeviantArt. It was created to cover Poser 7, but all the basics are still the same in P11. The library has changed, but everything else is more or less the same. :)
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
Are you trying to install the DSON plugin? I think they never updated it to 'work' with Poser 11, but that doesn't mean it doesn't (as well as it ever worked). I think you just have to manually browse to where you have the application files for Poser 11. If that doesn't work, you might have to install it manually by putting the files in your main Runtime (this is one that is with the application file itself).
 

Dakorillon (IMArts)

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
Thank you for the advice, didn't know where it went. Currently I manually installed it into the content library, so, guess I need to move it! Finally got everything downloaded and updated! So, to start the learning curve!
 

kobaltkween

Brilliant
Contributing Artist
PBRs are pretty much slanted towards game production, which is where they come from. Physically based rendering is only new to games. Every other aspect of 3D has been approaching materials partially or entirely from a physical standpoint for more than a decade. For instance, those of us who have been following Bagginsbill since the beginning have been talking about conservation of energy since before Poser supported GC. Really, the only area besides gaming where people were still faking the funk was film, and while Renderman makes faking the funk efficient and useful, renderers like Vray have been pushing film towards more accurate raytracing for a long time. As far as I can tell, arch vis, product rendering, prototyping, etc. has been going the full realism, unbiased route since I started using Poser in 2000 or so.

Most PBR materials aren't nearly as accurate as, say, custom materials in Luxrender or Octane. A cross renderer standard is _invaluable_. Much like HTML/JS makes it great for us to develop web apps for various platforms, PBRs are great for making materials that can translate to other renderers. But like HTML/JS, the vagaries of different platforms matter _hugely_.

Iray has a nasty edge artifact when you apply blurring to reflections, and only supports scattering as a volumetric effect that works like water, gems, or fog. A lot of people (including DAZ, AFAIK) incorrectly use translucency instead for SSS materials. Translucency is supposed to be for single poly surfaces imitating things like curtains or lampshades, and used incorrectly it has lots of weaknesses in various lighting situations. It's possible to use the scattering for skin, eyes, and teeth, but it's a lot harder than with other systems. Sort of how blurred reflections in Iray are best handled with light blurring in the settings and lots of fine bumps in normal maps. Also, you need to set your lights to test your materials, and Iray's lighting gives _entirely_ different results depending on the film and exposure settings. To even start testing materials, you have to at least have a clue about fStops and white levels. Maybe that's common knowledge, but I _really_ had to research to build a solid test environment in Iray. Because the default settings were _very_ extreme, and I had to change a lot to get them to a sort of normal, point and shoot camera with an average ISO level. It's awesome power to have, and I _so_ appreciate it, but it adds to the variables you have to consider when making and testing materials.

Cycles, on the other hand, handles reflection blurring and regular BSSRDF just fine, in addition to having volumetric absorption and scattering (things you can't exactly play with using the PhysicalSurface). But its caustics are somewhat limited and inefficient, and can be slow and hard to control. Cycles doesn't support true diffraction on its own (think the rainbow sparkle of diamonds, which Iray handles _beautifully_ and Cycles can only have with a fake), and even regular glass shading can take _ages_ to render with full caustics in certain environments. There are several fake caustic shaders for Cycles out there, the best being comprehensive, proprietary, and reasonably expensive. I really, really wish that the Cycles team gave caustics a higher priority, but the some in the community are fighting to keep caustics unimportant and not very good. It also doesn't have film settings, or other more physical considerations, because that's just not what it's made for. Even though Iray is made by nVidia, and therefore made mostly with games in mind, it's even more suited for stills than Cycles is. Cycles was largely designed for film/video, so it's weaker on realism while having all _kinds_ of features for stylization.

For instance, before Cycles supported SSS, you could use the raytracing nodes and fake Beer's law. What that gave you was a kind of internal depth map. Even with SSS and volumetrics, you can't as easily take depth and use it to, say, control a whole rainbow of colors (see the ColorRamp node in Poser and Blender) based on depth. You can get the same effect using plain volumetrics, but it's not as easy to control.

Both Iray and Cycles are great renderers. It's easier to get them to perform their best if you know what weaknesses to compensate for and what strengths to play to.

So sure, you can certainly focus the PhysicalSurface and ignore all the particulars of different systems. IMHO, PBR's in general are kind of bad for skin and natural items. I've seen lots of attempts at PBR skin, in various renderers, and I've not seen one that looks more like skin and less like painted wood or some other substance to me. The PhysicalSurface doesn't have any features that support making velvet, satin, terrycloth, or any other complex cloth shader. For instance, there's no anisotropic factor in the PhysicalSurface node, Firefly doesn't have an anisotropic reflection node, and plugging Superfly's anisotropic reflection node into another specular node is just completely inaccurate. Since PBR materials are from gaming, they focus on all the materials that are central to games, and therefore the kind of materials that are cool to your stereotypical 15 year old boy. So plastic, metal, glass, grunge, and such are great and covered in detail. Nylons, velvet with gold embroidery, silks, even lifelike and detailed skin, not so much.

To me, PBRs are weak in exactly the areas that tend to be important in our community. We have a gender balance and focus on rendering female figures in fancy gowns that's unusual for all aspects of the 3D community I know of.

While gaming is a part of the Blender community, more of the community does stills and movies. I've literally never looked at material tutorials for games rather than stills or video, and I've been using Blender since the 2.4x days. I'm not interested in the gaming industry, so I've avoided those tutorials and never felt the loss. I'm sorry, but I can't think of a particular piece of advice for finding Cycles material tutorials. I just haven't had much of an issue, so I don't know what I've done right, so to speak.

That said, PBRs are the rage now, and I'm not finding anyone with what _I_ would consider great advice on velvet or skin (good yes, great, no). I have to admit, though, I've been studying layered skin shaders since P6 days (the main paper I read was for MentalRay/Maya, IIRC, and it went over the physics of each layer and aspect of skin in detail), so my standard on skin shaders is pretty high and probably pretty esoteric. I'm not big on, say, using cyan or green to counteract burned in artifacts (I have better solutions), and I'm much more into the combining and balancing dermal scattering (in the skin, yellowish, pale, and waxy) and subdermal scattering (under the skin, red, and very dense) than pretty much everyone I've come across except that original skin shading paper I read. And the velvet I developed for Firefly involves quite a lot of playing around (including procedural textures) to fake the effect of a volumetric surface. The best alternatives I've seen use actual volumetric shaders. So you might find the information out there on skin and velvet more valuable than I do.
 
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Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
Soon after I've got a good skin shader for FF, I switched to Octane. When I got a good skin shader for Octane, Cycles/Superfly came in. For those from DS there is also 3Delight and Iray. None of these rendering engines understand each other's materials, except for FF and SF. In spite of me being an Octane aficionado, I find myself using more SF nowadays exactly because it understands Poser materials directly. More recently I have realized that my custom FF/SF skin shaders don't work in Octane because it doesn't support Math nodes (only "multiply" is not enough).

That's when I came to know the Physical Surface that works in both FF and SF, and tremendously simplifies skin shaders, plastic, metals and glass materials. My only gripe is that it didn't exist in P10, so it's P11 only, meaning I cannot use it in store products. The scary part of all this is that if one wants to "fully" support both Poser and DS, we would have to create materials for 4 different rendering engines, where at least there is some common ground between FF and SF, but even then with limitations because of backwards compatibility. To make it better, Iray MDL nodes were undocumented last time I checked.

From all these renderers, it appears that Cycles is the one being more actively developed, while Octane seems to be the slowest to change from the bunch because they apparently have only one programmer. But even then, I saw people discussing version numbers in the Cycles developer conference video, where features added in Poser don't synchronize with the ones introduced in Cycles itself, so version numbers have no meaning when it comes to features.

It's great to have options, and many of us always wanted to have higher quality alternative rendering solutions for Poser/DS, but as things stand now, it's complicated.
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
While gaming is a part of the Blender community, more of the community does stills and movies. I've literally never looked at material tutorials for games rather than stills or video, and I've been using Blender since the 2.4x days. I'm not interested in the gaming industry, so I've avoided those tutorials and never felt the loss. I'm sorry, but I can't think of a particular piece of advice for finding Cycles material tutorials. I just haven't had much of an issue, so I don't know what I've done right, so to speak.

It's funny your experience is so different than mine, although I image I know why, and I think I have found one more reason to maybe start moving away from google as my search engine. I suspect that since I spend so much of my time on sites related to Unity3D, my search results are 'tilted' towards things that reference gaming. And blender is definitely used massively in the indie game sphere, precisely because small studios don't have to worry about buying a license for everyone on their team.

You've obviously spent a lot of time looking at the various PBR renders, so thanks for all the info.

I think a lot of it comes down to how you use Poser. I was afraid of the Material Room until Poser 11 came out. Actually I was still afraid, but I loved what Superfly could do, but I had too many things that looked completely wrong if I just tried to use the Firefly materials. So I started to learn how to adjust them to work in Superfly, and the Physical Surface Node was so much easier for that.

But when I find some time, learning cycles is definitely on my list. Heck, I really need to sit down and learn how to do more than two things in Blender period.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Hey GG, be sure to check out the extensive, long links I have listed in our Blender Forum, as I'm sure you'll find a number of them to be of interest. ;)
 
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