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Superhero for Dawn
- Thread starter Ken1171
- Start date
While googling around, I have found more people asking the same question dating back to 2006, and no answer. This only affects normal maps, so many out there may have never noticed it actually happens. In 3DSMAX, I can see the UV normals are flipped, but there is no command to flip them back. >__<
OK, not sure if this would work with a normal map, but can't you just export the normal map for the affected boot, and flip it horizontally in Photoshop, PSP, Gimp, or whatever your 2D graphics app of choice happens to be, and then import it back into 3DS Max?
Or, if it's one normal map for both boots, can't you do the same, and just flip the affected boot portion of the map?
Or, if it's one normal map for both boots, can't you do the same, and just flip the affected boot portion of the map?
That's the thing - only one of the boots has the UV normals inverted, and MAX has no command to unflip them. I have checked online, and found other people struggling with the same thing. You won't notice anything until you try to apply a normal map to the model - one side will be flipped inside out. This is related to the model UVs, not the normal map. If I flip the normal map, it will fix one side and turn the other foot inside out. It seems easy enough to just flip the inverted UV normals, but MAX really doesn't know how to do it. I can only flip the UVs themselves, but not the direction of their normal vectors. I already know the same will happen to the gloves because they were modeled symmetrically.
I have asked Chris for help on this. If MAX cannot do it, maybe Modo can, but I don't know how to use it. ^///^
I have asked Chris for help on this. If MAX cannot do it, maybe Modo can, but I don't know how to use it. ^///^
Ok, so I did my research, and learned that the normal map getting inside out on the right boot is NOT a problem on my side, but instead a bug in Poser OpenGL preview and Firefly. I couldn't find a way to flip the UV normals because it just can't be done, so apparently it's not 3DSMAX's fault as I first thought.
In the image below we can see that Firefly and the OpenGL preview fails to render the boots with normal maps properly, but Cycles (SuperFly) can do it properly on its own. Thanks to normal map performance optimization, SuperFly (right side) has rendered the boots in less than a second. To my surprise, Octane 2.6 has also failed to render the normal maps correctly, leaving the right foot inside out like FireFly did. Now I wonder if DS can handle this properly?
I have submitted a bug report on this to both SMS and OToy. It's out of my hands now...
In the image below we can see that Firefly and the OpenGL preview fails to render the boots with normal maps properly, but Cycles (SuperFly) can do it properly on its own. Thanks to normal map performance optimization, SuperFly (right side) has rendered the boots in less than a second. To my surprise, Octane 2.6 has also failed to render the normal maps correctly, leaving the right foot inside out like FireFly did. Now I wonder if DS can handle this properly?
I have submitted a bug report on this to both SMS and OToy. It's out of my hands now...
AHA!! I wasn't understanding you correctly, but now that I see your examples, I know exactly what you were referring to.
That said, I just checked, and Blender has 3 options under Mesh > Normals:
Recalculate Outside
Recalculate Inside
Flip Normals
Whether that would work on your boots I don't know, but that's the only place I can find an option to work with Normals. Then again, if you did these with symmetry, then I guess it wouldn't work because even if I selected just the one boot, the other would get flipped because of the symmetry.
That said, I just checked, and Blender has 3 options under Mesh > Normals:
Recalculate Outside
Recalculate Inside
Flip Normals
Whether that would work on your boots I don't know, but that's the only place I can find an option to work with Normals. Then again, if you did these with symmetry, then I guess it wouldn't work because even if I selected just the one boot, the other would get flipped because of the symmetry.
Hmm, flipping geometry normals? I we flip those, the boots will become invisible... What needs to be flipped are the UV normals on the right boot, so that the bumps won't look inverted when the map is applied. I have found a tutorial that claims to do this, but afterwards, the UVs look OK in MAX, mas are definitely destroyed in Poser. Maybe there is no way to fix this, since half the UVs are overlapping and inverted. Either the renderer can display it properly or it can't. So far, Firefly can't, but SuperFly does.
Now I am wondering if this is the reason why some CAs create each foot as a separate conforming item, each with their own flipped texture maps?
UPDATE: I have tested this in DS4, and got a similar result:
* 3Delight: incorrect rendering of normal map (flipped on right boot), just like FireFly.
* iRay: proper render of normal maps, just like Cycles/SuperFly.
Might come down that all this is a rendering engine problem. Some renderers don't know how to properly handle normal maps, while others do.
Now I am wondering if this is the reason why some CAs create each foot as a separate conforming item, each with their own flipped texture maps?
UPDATE: I have tested this in DS4, and got a similar result:
* 3Delight: incorrect rendering of normal map (flipped on right boot), just like FireFly.
* iRay: proper render of normal maps, just like Cycles/SuperFly.
Might come down that all this is a rendering engine problem. Some renderers don't know how to properly handle normal maps, while others do.
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It's actually pretty easy to get geometry faces inverted, but in many programs, you will only notice the side effects when you render. In Poser, inverted face normals become invisible or just black, depends on your video card. With inverted UVs, the bump or normal maps become inside out as seen in the render above. Depending on the kind of map, we may not even notice it's inverted. In the boots, it becomes apparent that the sewing seams are inside out on the right foot.
Since the UVs on the right boot are inverted and overlapping with the left boot, I don't think it can be "fixed". I first thought there was something wrong with 3DSMAX for not having a UV normal flip command, but now it may be that it must can't be done. I have manually inverted the UV normal by hacking the OBJ, and they appear OK in MAX, but that seems to break their connection with the geometry coordinates. When rendered in Poser, the UV normals that have been flipped get destroyed.
That's what makes me believe this can only be resolved by fixing the rendering engine, to render normal maps properly.
Since the UVs on the right boot are inverted and overlapping with the left boot, I don't think it can be "fixed". I first thought there was something wrong with 3DSMAX for not having a UV normal flip command, but now it may be that it must can't be done. I have manually inverted the UV normal by hacking the OBJ, and they appear OK in MAX, but that seems to break their connection with the geometry coordinates. When rendered in Poser, the UV normals that have been flipped get destroyed.
That's what makes me believe this can only be resolved by fixing the rendering engine, to render normal maps properly.
I have been in touch with SMS, and looks like Firefly (Poser) and 3Delight (DS) both cannot always properly display normal maps (as seen above) because they only support "tangent space". Modern rendering engines like Cycles/SuperFly and IRay now support modern "Mikk-T space", which resolves the flipped/overlapped UV normals issue. So I suppose I cannot rely on normal maps in my products because both Poser and DS have aging rendering engines that don't fully support them.
This only affects normal maps applied to models that have a symmetric counterpart, like shoes, boots and gloves. I will have to find another way, maybe bump maps, assuming those won't display inside out as well.
This only affects normal maps applied to models that have a symmetric counterpart, like shoes, boots and gloves. I will have to find another way, maybe bump maps, assuming those won't display inside out as well.
This is a Firefly render with brand new normal maps for the boots, gloves, cowl and cape. Probably can't see all the small details from this distance, but I think the difference is visible. Body shape was done only with body scaling, where this is my 1st outfit to fully support it. ^^
Absolutely!
You always do the coolest stuff Ken
You always do the coolest stuff Ken
