Need customer input on morphs (Polls)

[Lyrra Madril]

well a lot of the Dawn morphs have scaling baked in. This of course creates a dreadful problem when trying to match these morphs. I think that is why I stopped work on this set to be honest. When I make a morph with scaling like my v4 child morph, I make just the shape as the morph and hook in the scaling via internal coding. This lets Poser handle it with its conform to scaling.

Unfortunately I think Dawn was developed in DS which handles things very differently - there you scale down the figure, export that, then morph it and bring the whole mess in as a morph and pin the joint changes to the morph so everything bends properly. This makes it a nightmare to support morphs built that way in Poser. The irony is that if you build the morph the way I do in poser using the older method - morph then add scale (this time via ERC coding in the morph channel), DS handles it fine *lol*

I'll have a look but what I might have to do is figure the scaling % for each morph that needs it and write a tutorial that walks you through adding the scaling as a dependent parameter to the morph. Not beginner level stuff I'm afraid, but for a content creator probably not too difficult.

LM

 

[Glitterati3D]

well a lot of the Dawn morphs have scaling baked in. This of course creates a dreadful problem when trying to match these morphs. I think that is why I stopped work on this set to be honest. When I make a morph with scaling like my v4 child morph, I make just the shape as the morph and hook in the scaling via internal coding. This lets Poser handle it with its conform to scaling.

Unfortunately I think Dawn was developed in DS which handles things very differently - there you scale down the figure, export that, then morph it and bring the whole mess in as a morph and pin the joint changes to the morph so everything bends properly. This makes it a nightmare to support morphs built that way in Poser. The irony is that if you build the morph the way I do in poser using the older method - morph then add scale (this time via ERC coding in the morph channel), DS handles it fine *lol*

I'll have a look but what I might have to do is figure the scaling % for each morph that needs it and write a tutorial that walks you through adding the scaling as a dependent parameter to the morph. Not beginner level stuff I'm afraid, but for a content creator probably not too difficult.

LM

I would REALLY appreciate that tutorial!

 

[Netherworks]

This sounds like in-between values would be particularly problematic. I.e. a user dials a specific morph to 0.5.

Are there really a ton that involve scaling, even the basic ones?

Another route to go might be to just include generic styled morphs for adjustments.

Also was thinking... Poser can match the scales. So you subtract those. Prepare a Dawn loaded with the morphs you want but rip the scaling out of the morphs afterwards. It would take some work but once set up you can just focus on the morphs.

 

[Sunfire]

I've found with transferring Dawn and Dusk's morphs, or any figure's morphs, if I also go in and check the corresponding morphs in each body part that I want, that are of course also in the clothing item, I get a much better fit. That way the linked morphs in the body, can find the corresponding morphs in the body parts, and I don't have to rely on Poser to make sure to include them.

 

[Glitterati3D]

This sounds like in-between values would be particularly problematic. I.e. a user dials a specific morph to 0.5.

Are there really a ton that involve scaling, even the basic ones?

Another route to go might be to just include generic styled morphs for adjustments.

Definition, Voluptuous, Emaciated, Bodysuit and Bulk are especially troublesome with Copy Morphs from. They don't use scaling, they just don't transfer well. In the Dawn Overalls set, I had to create each morph for manual use because they simply did not transfer at all when the hip & pelvis were nothing more than ghost bones.

Also was thinking... Poser can match the scales. So you subtract those. Prepare a Dawn loaded with the morphs you want but rip the scaling out of the morphs afterwards. It would take some work but once set up you can just focus on the morphs.

Sorry, but you lost me there ^. Not even sure I understand the plain english............whooooosh, right over my head.

 

[Glitterati3D]

I've found with transferring Dawn and Dusk's morphs, or any figure's morphs, if I also go in and check the corresponding morphs in each body part that I want, that are of course also in the clothing item, I get a much better fit. That way the linked morphs in the body, can find the corresponding morphs in the body parts, and I don't have to rely on Poser to make sure to include them.

I do the same but find it doesn't help much on some of the morphs.

 

[kobaltkween]

I am probably the _worst_ person to ask (I don't work like most people do), but I ignore morphs and stick to dynamics for precisely this reason. I don't use characters except as resources for custom morphs. I dial away until I get something I want. And that something pretty much never, ever works with conforming clothes no matter how hard I try or how many morphs are built in. I've used clothes with tons of utility morphs _and_ package morphs, but I've never been able to get conformers to work to my satisfaction.

That all said, I use Morphing Clothes by Dimension3D if I need to transfer morphs. It generally works well for me. I haven't tried it on Dawn, though, because I'd gone a different direction by the time she came along.

I guess my absolute have to have would actually be utility morphs. You know, wider waist, shoulders up, etc. Morphs that help fitting regardless of what morphs I use on the figure, or even if I make my own. Nine times out of ten, back when I'd spend hours struggling with conforming clothing, the utility morphs would be _much_ more useful. FBM were especially useless for me. I'd rather have loosen forearm, loosen upper arm, etc. than bulk, because I'd almost always find that the FBM affected too much in a way that was too specific. It would create as much poke through as it eliminated, and make some areas way too loose. They were only useful if I stuck to supported FBM, which I pretty much never did. Instead, I'd end up with lots of problem areas that I could only address with localized utility morphs, if they existed.

That's just my experience, but maybe there's a few ideas in there that will help.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

Kobaltkween - well I'd suggest my TailorMe set for that actually. It is a bunch of magnets arranged in controllable clusters to do things like loosen, tighten and so forth. I made it specifically for this problem and for things like lowering and raising cuffs and hems, adding dents, and other things like that. Although these days a patient hand with the morph brush can do nearly as well.

It is probably a good idea to include some generic loosen and tighten magnets in the upcoming set, and easy enough for me to make too

LM

 

[Satira Capriccio]

Supermodel is the one that always gave me grief, so I don't include it. I usually also skip Voluptuous. Bias on my part. I've yet to have problems with Definition, Emaciated, or Bulk. Of course, the Obese and BodyBuilder always need fixed ... which is to be expected.

As long as I remember to check Show Hidden Parameters, and make sure I have the body part morphs (as well as the separate arms, legs, and torso) also checked for the body morphs, I haven't had problems with Starter or Body Morphs not copying over. I was a happy camper when I realized Poser Pro 11 auto checks the body part morph when you check a morph in the body. Makes copying morphs over sooo much easier. Otherwise, I was constantly scrolling back up to see what I'd checked in the body.

This is my results with transferring Bulk (using Poser Pro 11).
I'm still not happy with the top. It started out life as a dynamic raincoat, then became a pull over sweater. But it still isn't what I envision.
So ... back to the drawing board.
Stephen's pants and boots converted rather well, so that's a win.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

I've gone over what I have already built. It seems I skipped Supermodel in the Starter magnet set, because it is pure scaling.

On the BodyShapes magnets I have about half. I will need to make a tutorial on how to add the scaling, plus a utility pose for the fitting process, and a chart for what scaling you will need to add for each one. From what I can see the scaling morphs are: BodyAmazon, BodyPetite, BodyTall, Legslength, and Armslength. Have I missed any?

Now there are three methods : DS only, Poser Only and Both. The last one is of course the most difficult and requires cr2 editing manually

Should I write tutorials for all three methods or just the one that works for both and is more finicky?

For example; Supermodel requires adding about 107% Y scale to the thighs and about 105% Y scale to the shins and maybe a little morphs to adjust the ankles. This can be done by making the ankle fix and then adding dependent parameters to it in poser, scaling and doing the export-import hokeypokey plus ERC freeze in DS, or manually adding the scaling ERC in the cr2 using PoserFileEditor or similar program. Or a quicky patch pz2, but that only works at full values and is not useful in the long term.

In theory Netherworks might be able to make a scripted widgit that inserts the ERC for you on the specific morphdial(s), but I don't think he supports DS. Netherworks?

And for the pedants - all this fussing about could have been skipped if the morphs had been made without the scaling baked into the morph deltas. Figure creators please keep that in mind: Morph in one dial, morph plus scaling dials in the other dial. Lets keep the hair pulling moments to a minimum yeah?

LM

 

[Pendraia]

I think it has to do with internal coding. Poser can be a little stupid and morphs that are stacked commands probably baffle it.

Is this only when the scaling is baked in or does it also happen when two separate morphs have a controller morph that will dial both in at once?

I know that Poser doesn't deal with scaling in the same way as DS, that was why I had to do my Diva injection by hand and not use toybox which is how I made my injections for the other morphs I did for Dawn and dusk.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

well if you try to copy V4's Male morph it makes a dud, but the MaleMorphNoScale will transfer (badly)
If you pop open the cr2 the Male Morph calls the MaleMorphNoScale plus has a bunch of scaling ERC commands. So, I'm inclined to believe that poser makes the one dial and doesn't go any further along the chain, which honestly is probably good because that way lies giant messes.

Ditto the same issue on the Michael Freak morphs for mmm Ultramassive And Monstrous I think? One of them calls the other + scaling

So if you are making morphs in clothing and your various transfer options completely skip them, chance is that there is some coding going on in there under the hood. Depending on the figure there is usually a lot going on in there that the end user doesnt see, some of wehich can trip you up pretty badly as a clothing maker.

Now if you build a morph as morph deltas + scaling ERC the good news is that it should work fine in Poser and DS, as both have autoconform for scaling now. Its just anything built other ways which causes trouble.

LM

 

[Glitterati3D]

I've gone over what I have already built. It seems I skipped Supermodel in the Starter magnet set, because it is pure scaling.

On the BodyShapes magnets I have about half. I will need to make a tutorial on how to add the scaling, plus a utility pose for the fitting process, and a chart for what scaling you will need to add for each one. From what I can see the scaling morphs are: BodyAmazon, BodyPetite, BodyTall, Legslength, and Armslength. Have I missed any?

Now there are three methods : DS only, Poser Only and Both. The last one is of course the most difficult and requires cr2 editing manually

Should I write tutorials for all three methods or just the one that works for both and is more finicky?

For example; Supermodel requires adding about 107% Y scale to the thighs and about 105% Y scale to the shins and maybe a little morphs to adjust the ankles. This can be done by making the ankle fix and then adding dependent parameters to it in poser, scaling and doing the export-import hokeypokey plus ERC freeze in DS, or manually adding the scaling ERC in the cr2 using PoserFileEditor or similar program. Or a quicky patch pz2, but that only works at full values and is not useful in the long term.

In theory Netherworks might be able to make a scripted widgit that inserts the ERC for you on the specific morphdial(s), but I don't think he supports DS. Netherworks?

And for the pedants - all this fussing about could have been skipped if the morphs had been made without the scaling baked into the morph deltas. Figure creators please keep that in mind: Morph in one dial, morph plus scaling dials in the other dial. Lets keep the hair pulling moments to a minimum yeah?

LM

I only use Poser so I don't need anything for DS.

And, there's something in the feet as well on the scaling morphs, but I don't remember off the top of my head.

If you are rigging in PP14, the shoes are a mess on scaling. But, Poser 11 rigging resolved whatever is was.

I only use P11 for rigging now. I use PP14 for MAT creation, etc. but not for rigging.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Supermodel is the one that always gave me grief, so I don't include it. I usually also skip Voluptuous. Bias on my part. I've yet to have problems with Definition, Emaciated, or Bulk. Of course, the Obese and BodyBuilder always need fixed ... which is to be expected.

As long as I remember to check Show Hidden Parameters, and make sure I have the body part morphs (as well as the separate arms, legs, and torso) also checked for the body morphs, I haven't had problems with Starter or Body Morphs not copying over. I was a happy camper when I realized Poser Pro 11 auto checks the body part morph when you check a morph in the body. Makes copying morphs over sooo much easier. Otherwise, I was constantly scrolling back up to see what I'd checked in the body.

This is my results with transferring Bulk (using Poser Pro 11).
I'm still not happy with the top. It started out life as a dynamic raincoat, then became a pull over sweater. But it still isn't what I envision.
So ... back to the drawing board.
Stephen's pants and boots converted rather well, so that's a win.

Yeah, like I said it depends on the mesh. Some transfers go with little problem, but the more low poly the mesh is the worse the morph transfer is. And, the Resource Kit is (intentionally) low poly.

 

[kobaltkween]

Kobaltkween - well I'd suggest my TailorMe set for that actually. It is a bunch of magnets arranged in controllable clusters to do things like loosen, tighten and so forth. I made it specifically for this problem and for things like lowering and raising cuffs and hems, adding dents, and other things like that. Although these days a patient hand with the morph brush can do nearly as well.

It is probably a good idea to include some generic loosen and tighten magnets in the upcoming set, and easy enough for me to make too

LM

Oh, sorry, I just make my own clothes now. And use dynamics. But yes, if I still used other people's conforming clothes, I'd probably want that set.

 

[Lyrra Madril]

Project Viability Study: Dawn Bodyshape Magnet Kit

 

[Netherworks]

Yeah, it's likely to be mesh dependent.

This transferred pretty well to Sora's body morph, Copy Morphs in Poser (11 Pro).

I used "Show Hidden Parameters" prior to copy. I did have to use the smooth brush on the breasts but for a couple of minutes of work, this isn't bad.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Yeah, it's likely to be mesh dependent.

This transferred pretty well to Sora's body morph, Copy Morphs in Poser (11 Pro).

I used "Show Hidden Parameters" prior to copy. I did have to use the smooth brush on the breasts but for a couple of minutes of work, this isn't bad.

You're right, it's not bad at all. But, once again, that's a decent mesh. Also, the "boob sock" effect on the sides would not be considered commercial quality by QA.

 

[Netherworks]

Yeah, you'd have to take the depression out of the middle to reduce that, I'd think. It wouldn't conform as a sock. However, Sora's breasts are nowhere in the realm of realistic, shapewise, as an anime character that's perfectly fine, so I feel there shoulde be some leeway. When you have tits that defy gravity, some expectations go out of the window

This also would be easier to handle, by the morph brush, if Poser had two things. I've pushed for them but we haven't seem them yet.

Poser needs brush presets. Wish I could pull it off. If I could it would be scripted immediately.

Poser needs optional smoothing passes when copying morphs. Utimately, you'd enter the number of passes for smoothing and perhaps have a keep detail checkbox.

 

[Glitterati3D]

Yeah, you'd have to take the depression out of the middle to reduce that, I'd think. It wouldn't conform as a sock. However, Sora's breasts are nowhere in the realm of realistic, shapewise, as an anime character that's perfectly fine, so I feel there shoulde be some leeway. When you have tits that defy gravity, some expectations go out of the window

This also would be easier to handle, by the morph brush, if Poser had two things. I've pushed for them but we haven't seem them yet.

Poser needs brush presets. Wish I could pull it off. If I could it would be scripted immediately.

Poser needs optional smoothing passes when copying morphs. Utimately, you'd enter the number of passes for smoothing and perhaps have a keep detail checkbox.

For something like that, I would be prone to using the Restore brush rather than trying to push/pull with those "wrinkles" down the front of the dress. With Poser11, the Restore brush became much more useful because you can restrict it to groups/materials, etc. Things like the hardware on my overalls really benefited from the restore brush to eliminate distortion.