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Let's talk about.....POSTWORK
- Thread starter Alisa
- Start date
As a vendor, I always went to do renders without post work and note that in my stores- and which ones of the promos (if there are any) have post work in them, along with which render engine is used. I, personally, want to see the blasted product IN the render engine it was made for in the system it was made for. Too many products look fantastic, but at the bottom of the page the Studio product was rendered in Reality or Octane and the vendor had no examples of it in 3Delight or Iray (I personally use Iray, even on the 8 year old machine- my shader materials are all Iray or SSS for Poser as well, and that's noted in my products).
It irks me. Post work does not.
I agree with your point regarding the engine in use on promos. I think it's okay to do a promo for say, Octane or Reality, but there should also be promos in either Iray or 3Delight, if the product is being marketed for those engines. I agree totally on that.
I don't mind a postworked promo - IF the vendor marks it as having been postworked. That's the key. It should be noted on the image that there is postwork in the image, if being used as a promo, and I do still think that the vendor needs to include some promos that were NOT postworked, too, so folks know what to expect out of the engine with that item.
Welcome to the site, Darwin.
It's nice to meet you.
Just curious, in regard to promos and vendors naming use of postwork etc.
Would you call adding text postwork? Because in this case I wouldn't.
I'm not a vendor just the end user. I wouldn't see adding text/lables/logos as postwork (although in the strict sense of the word it is).
What I like to see as the end user is out of the box renders with the render engine as a nice little logo or text in the corner so I know if its possible for me to get a similar look (I actually like to see samples of different render engines even if its not one I have).
I think most people are smart enough to know that in most cases text over the image wasn't made in the render. And I don't see combining 2 or three images of the same model in one image as cheating either, if its obvious (like a front, side, back view type image).
What I hate is when the image is postworked so I have no chance of recreating the image (not that I'd want to, but hopefully you get my drift).
Would you call adding text postwork? Because in this case I wouldn't.
I'm not a vendor just the end user. I wouldn't see adding text/lables/logos as postwork (although in the strict sense of the word it is).
What I like to see as the end user is out of the box renders with the render engine as a nice little logo or text in the corner so I know if its possible for me to get a similar look (I actually like to see samples of different render engines even if its not one I have).
I think most people are smart enough to know that in most cases text over the image wasn't made in the render. And I don't see combining 2 or three images of the same model in one image as cheating either, if its obvious (like a front, side, back view type image).
What I hate is when the image is postworked so I have no chance of recreating the image (not that I'd want to, but hopefully you get my drift
).
Postwork on a promo is, to me, things like color correction, sharpening, hand drawn DOF, any painted dirt, grime, hair, etc.
Vendors have to be able to composite their promos. Of course text and logos are technically postwork, same as frames around the edge of the image. But those are obvious, and part of basic compositing of a promo image to display package contents.
It's stuff like postworking rough edges out of a shirt bend when the package IS the shirt, or color correcting a skin when the package IS the skin/morph...
Vendors have to be able to composite their promos. Of course text and logos are technically postwork, same as frames around the edge of the image. But those are obvious, and part of basic compositing of a promo image to display package contents.
It's stuff like postworking rough edges out of a shirt bend when the package IS the shirt, or color correcting a skin when the package IS the skin/morph...
I do think including a clearly labeled artistic example is a good idea; it shows what the package CAN achieve if the artist goes a little beyond raw render and puts some added work into it in post. But again, those should be clearly labeled as artistic examples. I think it's a good idea to include one, maybe two artistic examples in a product's promos. But the bulk of the promo renders ought to show how the product truly performs in the engine it's designed to be used in. LOL
I usually try to do an artistic render when I beta test a product. That way, if it's included among the promos, folks can see what can be done by the end user. Needless to say, I don't necessarily have the same lighting or "vision" of a scene, so my render is more than likely not going to look anything like the product's promo renders the CA has created. It does give folks a better way to judge how a product's going to look in their renders if they're using the same software app and render engine, or at least closer to what their renders will look like, because there's no telling whether they'll have the same lighting or vision I do.
There's a part of me thinking that if one is going to insist on a total lack of postwork as an absolute requirement for worth of a digital piece, then you also have to specify the hardware, operating system and monitor settings that the viewer needs to use. It's the only way be completely certain that the viewer sees exactly what was spat out by the render software.
Artistic worth has absolutely nothing to do with the process used to create it, except in so far as the execution of the process reflects the artist's skill and enhances the impact of the final result. Meh, not trying to sound clever with all the long words, sorry. Just saying that zero postwork restricts the tools available to the artist, places some effects beyond the reach of many digital artists, and gives greater influence to technical skill than to artistic flare and creativity. A valid exercise to demonstrate technical skill but not the sum total of artistic worth. You use whatever you have and can use to create the result you want. That's been the case for artists since people painted on cave walls. ("What? I can only use a straw to blow paint, I'm not allowed to use my fingers to smear it around afterwards?").
I usually have an end result in mind; Poser (my usual 3d output software of choice) is just one tool in my toolbox. I'll use whatever tools I think will produce the final result I have in mind, be that a camera, PSP or Photoshop, even a scanner and fabric/paper/autumn leaves/leather/dog nose-art*
*Dog nose-art: what a dog leaves on a window. My windows are not dirty, I am a proud dog parent showing off his work!
I'll totally agree with comments on promotional art, in that some renders ought to be unretouched, and any postwork (including compositing) ought to be described. I think it's okay to postwork in a non-distracting background such as a plain colour or gradient fill, though. Promotional art is primarily illustrative, and only secondarily artistic. It's main purpose is to show people what comes in the box.
Soooo... is this thread also a place for talking about postwork techniques?
Artistic worth has absolutely nothing to do with the process used to create it, except in so far as the execution of the process reflects the artist's skill and enhances the impact of the final result. Meh, not trying to sound clever with all the long words, sorry. Just saying that zero postwork restricts the tools available to the artist, places some effects beyond the reach of many digital artists, and gives greater influence to technical skill than to artistic flare and creativity. A valid exercise to demonstrate technical skill but not the sum total of artistic worth. You use whatever you have and can use to create the result you want. That's been the case for artists since people painted on cave walls. ("What? I can only use a straw to blow paint, I'm not allowed to use my fingers to smear it around afterwards?").
I usually have an end result in mind; Poser (my usual 3d output software of choice) is just one tool in my toolbox. I'll use whatever tools I think will produce the final result I have in mind, be that a camera, PSP or Photoshop, even a scanner and fabric/paper/autumn leaves/leather/dog nose-art*
*Dog nose-art: what a dog leaves on a window. My windows are not dirty, I am a proud dog parent showing off his work!
I'll totally agree with comments on promotional art, in that some renders ought to be unretouched, and any postwork (including compositing) ought to be described. I think it's okay to postwork in a non-distracting background such as a plain colour or gradient fill, though. Promotional art is primarily illustrative, and only secondarily artistic. It's main purpose is to show people what comes in the box.
Soooo... is this thread also a place for talking about postwork techniques?
I don't see why not?
Lorraine
The Wicked Witch of the North
This has been interesting reading. As a person who has always gone for realism I tend not to do any post work beyond tweaking levels and curves, much as in my photography days. I use DS as a studio that's an awful lot more portable than my real one was and those lights are a lot lighter to move around But just because I don't use post work much does not mean I think people who do are in any way inferior to those who don't. We all create what we want in our own ways and are all equally valid artists.
But just because I don't use post work much does not mean I think people who do are in any way inferior to those who don't. We all create what we want in our own ways and are all equally valid artists.
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Desertsilver
Busy Bee
I love looking at the hardcore 3 d work, and seeing their process...however, I can not personally relate to the no postwork mindset. For me, the render is just a sketch-a jumping off point. Photoshop and painter are where I really get to be creative and make the image my own.
I have been painting all of my life, and really, the whole concept of calling working on a digital image postwork seems so strange to me...I always see something that wants to be tweeked or moved or brightened up or have it's edges softened...
One of my favorite artists, Pierre Bonnard, was famous for sneaking into the Louve with his brushes and paint and adding just a dab of color here or there on his paintings...(Always wondered how he managed that)
For promo art, I totally agree that I want to see the product as it renders out of the box in at least some of the promo art. But I'm also happy to see an image or two where the artist pulls out all her fireworks and magic- it's inspiration!
I have been painting all of my life, and really, the whole concept of calling working on a digital image postwork seems so strange to me...I always see something that wants to be tweeked or moved or brightened up or have it's edges softened...
One of my favorite artists, Pierre Bonnard, was famous for sneaking into the Louve with his brushes and paint and adding just a dab of color here or there on his paintings...(Always wondered how he managed that)
For promo art, I totally agree that I want to see the product as it renders out of the box in at least some of the promo art. But I'm also happy to see an image or two where the artist pulls out all her fireworks and magic- it's inspiration!
In the case of a clothing product, do you all consider postwork on the scene behind the clothing taboo in promos? Such as changing the background so that it looks more like an illustration rather than a render, while leaving the figure and clothing untouched?
This is an example of what I mean. The figure and clothing is an untouched render overlaid over a background which was postworked.
This is an example of what I mean. The figure and clothing is an untouched render overlaid over a background which was postworked.
and of course, I hit some key combination that posted the above before I was finished.
A promo like this one wouldn't be an issue for anyone, while the above promo would or would not be?
A promo like this one wouldn't be an issue for anyone, while the above promo would or would not be?
Thanks Miss B. My intention was that Dawn and the clothing stand out from the background. I just wasn't sure after reading the comments whether people had an issue with a promo like that (since the background is a render rather than the background on the second which is all photoshop layers.)
frogimus
Adventurous
@Satira Capriccio, IMO, both images are acceptable. The model has a mannequin feel to it and both backgrounds are abstracted enough so that everything frames the real product. There are many other promos that make it difficult to see what you are buying. Yours make the product clearly defined.
