That wouldn't surprise me, as a lot, if not all, HW products have reusable UVs from one to the another.
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Dawn 2.0 Underway
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
Looks fantastic so far Chris!
First, some feedback - the side of the chest ... I've been back and forth in my head, but I've decided to ask you to consider reverting to the original version as in my opinion the muscles in that area have forms too subtle to be carried in the base mesh without increasing resolution. The original mesh topology (as on p12) would make it easier to find those shapes in a sculpt that could be baked down to either high-res morphs or maps, while the current topology looks ... well, scrappy. It looks like that area has a much higher density of poles and a compromised edge flow compared to the rest of the mesh - which is looking very clean.
Second, a request - could you post an orthographic (i.e. no perspective camera) front, back and sides view? I'm interested in seeing overall proportion (I assume Dawn 2 will still be using the 8 head canon) and the centre line.
Third: UV's - anything to show? I'm weird, I like UV mapping so I'm itching to see
Been hard to determine what is needed for the oblique area. But I think we'll be okay with the added tweaking to be able to morph out some muscles there. I understand its not near as clean as what I was working over before, but besides others here requesting geometry in the obliques, I've wanted it there also. I also understand that sculpts would be a great way to achieve muscle tone. I have committed us to be able to achieve a good part of muscle tone and morphs in our base mesh, so we'll let that play out and see what we can accomplish.
We're going off the same general proportions as our original Dawn. Happy to show some orthographic screen grabs here.
Also, I haven't begun new UVs yet. I'm looking forward to making that happen though.
Me195
Extraordinary
Dawn 2.0 is looking really great. I wish I had some useful feedback to give, but I've never developed any content for figures with resolutions as high as Poser and Daz Studio figures. I guess I will just enjoy my free education on the finer points of content creation while seated comfortably in the cheering section. Truth be told around the end 2013 I was all set to quit 3d art altogether. The last thing I was going to do was give Dawn a shot. I was not disappointed. It gave me hope for Poser and rekindled my interest. I have picked up steam with each iteration of Dawn (and Dusk), and I look forward to what Dawn 2.0 will bring.
Oh wow! Those are great words of encouragement for me to keep plowing thru the mangrove swamps of topology reworking. So glad you've not only hung in there, but as you mentioned "picked up steam".
eclark1894
Visionary
Chris, why is a five point polygon undesirable according to Ken 1171? I ask because I couldn't help but notice that right near the bottom of the outer rear calf muscle on Dawn, you have two of them practically connecting. Yes, I know that you said you hadn't gone into the lower legs and ankles yet, so I thought I'd ask.
Hornet3d
Wise
We seem to have had a similar experience in that I almost walked away from the hobby but in my case it was Dawn SE that reignited my interest. While I look forward to Dawn 2 I doubt if it will result in me picking up steam but only because I am still well and truly motivated with Dawn SE. Thanks to some very good products here at Hivewire, I have also discovered the benefits of dynamic clothing which has opened up a lot of new possibilities. While the supply of clothing for Dawn is slow what is available is good quality and great to work with. With that, and Dawn 2 on the horizon, my interest in 3D art is not only renewed but looking to remain fresh for a long time to come.
You can't get away from using 3 and 5 point pulls when combining complex topology. Its 6 point pulls and more that are not desired. But I think what Ken was referring to was trying not to have 5 polys coming to one point in a joint or bendable area. I'm trying to create only 4 polys coming together in highly bendable joint areas. This will make for better bends, easier rigging, and overall less JCMs that will need to be created.
As for each polygon, the goal is to have each one be 4 sided. No 3, 5, or more sided polys, only four sided pure quads.
Oh, feet! That's an area I personally think could benefit from some changes for realism (not aesthetics). Her feet are abnormally huge and long in all aspects (I find them _much_ more "mannish" than her jaw), but more importantly, her toes and foot just aren't realistically shaped. It was the only part of Dawn I found remarkably off from my references and textures. Especially her big toe. Real toes and feet have somewhat more complex shapes. Also, I couldn't find any resources that weren't at least a third as wide as her feet when scaled to match her foot's length. Nor did any of my full body resources have feet nearly as long as hers when scaled to match her height. I'd love to see her have more realistic and averagely proportioned feet in default.
That said, as much as I'd _like_ these changes, I don't think they're hugely important. I feel like I should balance any critiques here with the fact that I _really_ like Dawn 1.0, and I'm looking forward to 2.0. I think it's easy to focus on faults in this stage of development. IMHO, the _biggest_ weakness all the non-DAZ, post V4 figures have had is just community negativity.
I really didn't like V4 when she came out. At all. I thought she was hideous and bizarre looking, like a softened Posette with more elongated proportions. My husband can spot her (and her descendants) by their extremely long arms (he says they should be fighters with that kind of reach). To this day, there's not one character for her I find _as_ realistic in the face as V3's. But I used her like everyone else because the whole community was behind her, which meant she had the most resources.
Point being, community enthusiasm and a figure's ability to be a usable community platform are more important than realism or aesthetics. At the end of the day, no figure will ever look perfect, even to one person. From what I've seen, the most determinative factor would be our ability to we can easily share and build on each others' work for her, and our willingness to do so.
That said, as much as I'd _like_ these changes, I don't think they're hugely important. I feel like I should balance any critiques here with the fact that I _really_ like Dawn 1.0, and I'm looking forward to 2.0. I think it's easy to focus on faults in this stage of development. IMHO, the _biggest_ weakness all the non-DAZ, post V4 figures have had is just community negativity.
I really didn't like V4 when she came out. At all. I thought she was hideous and bizarre looking, like a softened Posette with more elongated proportions. My husband can spot her (and her descendants) by their extremely long arms (he says they should be fighters with that kind of reach). To this day, there's not one character for her I find _as_ realistic in the face as V3's. But I used her like everyone else because the whole community was behind her, which meant she had the most resources.
Point being, community enthusiasm and a figure's ability to be a usable community platform are more important than realism or aesthetics. At the end of the day, no figure will ever look perfect, even to one person. From what I've seen, the most determinative factor would be our ability to we can easily share and build on each others' work for her, and our willingness to do so.
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agreed with the points about the feet (and hands). More detail shaping. The toes, and not just the Hivewire figures, reminds me of little sausages not toes. There is not allot of detail in the knuckles which lends to this strange appearance!
eclark1894
Visionary
Yummmm..... sausages, and knuckles! Woooo doggies!
eclark1894
Visionary
Sorry had Beverly Hillbillies moment. But some Hot Sauce would really come in handy right now.
Willowisp
Adventurous
There are many things about Dawn that has annoyed me over the years, and most of them have already been covered. Except one, I think (at least I don't remember reading it in this thread), and that's her teeth. IMO, her current set looks like badly made dentures, very straight and uniform. No one has real teeth like that.
It wasn't a five point poly, but instead a "5 edges pole", meaning a vertex shared by 5 edges. Like Chris has mentioned, the point wasn't exactly about the pole, but instead about it being close to a high compression area (thigh side-side bend) because of the topology of a pole. It's Ok when it's located in other areas.
In the example below I am showing a 5 edges pole on the original Dawn, where the area gets highly compressed when the thigh is bend to a side. The pole on Dawn 2.0 has a different topology that may not bend well at all at that location.
I personally don't care so much for feet, but I am aware that a LOT of people do. I remember being commissioned a few years ago to create hundreds of feet shaping morphs for Genesis and Dawn, down to specific arch and toe knuckles shapes, heel and ball of the feet sizes, and even toe nails length. I have to agree that I also think Dawn's feet and hands/fingers seem manly/oversized. It's not so much the size of the hands, but the proportions. If I just thin out the fingers, it creates a gap between them, so that didn't work. It would be nice if the new Dawn could have more feminine hands and fingers. I have already suggested adding an extra [ghost] bone to the thumbs to allow folding the palms against the base of the thumbs. I would prefer a ghost bone so that we don't add a new group to an already crowded area.
As for the feet, I agree that the proportions could be more feminine. I have previously suggested adding a metatarsal bone between foot and toe bones to allow for better and more realistic feet posing that is not possible with the original Dawn. In that aspect, Dawn's feet can only remain flat, except for the toes, which is unrealistic. I remember being commissioned several times to create this kind of feet bending with morphs, which doesn't work with the bones the way they are now. A metatarsal bone could fix all that, and hence my suggestion to add one.
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Hum, would you prefer to see more teeth morph options? Perhaps we leave the base teeth straight as general?
I'll look them over when I get to the teeth and gums. I'm planning to rework them on the new Dawn last, before UV work and morphs.
On the teeth part, I think the default should be straight and general, because variety can be added in morphs. Example below with DawnSE + Amelia character morph. Note she has cute teeth that is different from the original shape. A straight and general default shape is ideal for creating custom shapes.
On the other side, I think Dawn's lower teeth should be placed LOWER than they are now. That would provide more realistic smiles and expressions, where the lower teeth doesn't show like it does now. In the render above, I have lowered the lower teeth (gums) so they don't show in the smile. I have to do this EVERY TIME because Dawn's lower teeth are placed too high by default. That's a new suggestion for Dawn 2.0.
On the other side, I think Dawn's lower teeth should be placed LOWER than they are now. That would provide more realistic smiles and expressions, where the lower teeth doesn't show like it does now. In the render above, I have lowered the lower teeth (gums) so they don't show in the smile. I have to do this EVERY TIME because Dawn's lower teeth are placed too high by default. That's a new suggestion for Dawn 2.0.
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Willowisp
Adventurous
Dreamer
Dream Weaver Designs
I have to second Willowisp on the teeth, I was working with Dawn the other day and I found myself thinking that her teeth reminded me of pegs/gravestones. Ended up going and looking at my own in the mirror lol what I thought was that the biting edge of her teeth is too thick, at least compared to my own, front teeth come to quite a thin edge for biting/cutting through stuff. Dawns look more like they are the same thickness from gum to edge.
More teeth shaping options would not be unappreciated either
More teeth shaping options would not be unappreciated either
"More options are always good".. Not always Not if the figure gets so complicated that the *average* user can't figure them out. I know folks are talking about things like "metatarsals," " glutes" and other anatomically correct things but does the average user know what's being referred to ? Are we going to need an anatomy textbook sitting beside us when trying to work with Dawn 2.0 ?
Not if the figure gets so complicated that the *average* user can't figure them out. I know folks are talking about things like "metatarsals," " glutes" and other anatomically correct things but does the average user know what's being referred to ? Are we going to need an anatomy textbook sitting beside us when trying to work with Dawn 2.0 ?