Content Paradise is shutting down

[tparo]

Hey, ECLARK1894, take note of this will ya?



...

So yes ECLARK1894, we really are short FOUR sizable sources of POSER content in just about 2 years time. And DAZ3D intends to kill off ALL sources of POSER content. I am guessing [their owners] just want to gloat or something.

Honestly this is a lod of tosh and rubbish just because SM don't give a dam about content for their program and offer little support to vendors who create for Poser its not Daz's fault, laying the blame at their feet is just avoiding the real problem.

 

[eclark1894]

Honestly this is a lod of tosh and rubbish just because SM don't give a dam about content for their program and offer little support to vendors who create for Poser its not Daz's fault, laying the blame at their feet is just avoiding the real problem.

Well, while I might agree with your assessment that SM doesn't offer much support to vendors for Poser, I have to say that it's only your opinion that they don't give a damn about content. I keep pointing out SM sells software, not content. Hell, they're not even a very good software developer in my opinion or they wouldaddress the shortcomings of theirsoftware concerning content making.

 

[Ken1171]

Hell, they're not even a very good software developer in my opinion or they wouldaddress the shortcomings of theirsoftware concerning content making.

I have to disagree here. SMS has added the best features Poser ever had. Just look back to the mediocre full point releases like Poser 4, 5 and 6. Efrontier kind of evolved Poser 7 a bit, but things only started to steadily evolve with SMS. I think the problem with SMS is the administration, not the programmers. They are the ones making the big decisions, and they know nothing about programming. It has been like this in all companies I have worked for in the last couple of decades, from Japan to the Americas (North and South). Programmers decide nothing, they just do what they are told by businessmen.

That's why we hear things like "if it's not broken, don't fix it". That means different things to the admins and to the programmers. Poser is obviously broken because figures are unimesh but Poser doesn't support that at geometry level. As soon as you load a figure, Poser breaks it into split groups, and that is the source for all sorts of rigging and morphing issues. For once, it cannot export figures in a single piece, so we cannot use any OBJ created by Poser. All content creators know that. There are also minor problems that SMS could had fixed if they wanted to. For example, whenever we save a prop to the library, Poser will embed the geometry into the PP2, which no content store will accept, so we need special external tools to extract it. Another one: when we save a newly rigged figure to the library, it will place the [broken] OBJ in the same folder as the CR2, and not at the geometries folder where it should be. This is not acceptable in any content store, but we have to accept it from SMS.

I am positive it was the SMS admins who pushed adding new features to Poser instead of fixing the more critical issues. These businessmen are not Poser users, and are not programmers, and yet, they claim not to fix what is "not broken". In all the years I have worked with software development, it has always been like this, so this is definitely NOT unique to SMS. As far as I know, the programmers don't decide anything, they just do what they are told by people who are not from the same field and don't even use the software, but make all the major decisions. In my experience, that is as frustrating to the programmers as it is to the users.

 

[Ken1171]

With computers, its the first 3 rules of Computing: Back it Up, Back it Up, and make sure to Back it Up again!

True, but apparently I had to learn it the hard way.

 

[eclark1894]

I have to disagree here. SMS has added the best features Poser ever had. Just look back to the mediocre full point releases like Poser 4, 5 and 6. Efrontier kind of evolved Poser 7 a bit, but things only started to steadily evolve with SMS. I think the problem with SMS is the administration, not the programmers. They are the ones making the big decisions, and they know nothing about programming. It has been like this in all companies I have worked for in the last couple of decades, from Japan to the Americas (North and South). Programmers decide nothing, they just do what they are told by businessmen.

That's why we hear things like "if it's not broken, don't fix it". That means different things to the admins and to the programmers. Poser is obviously broken because figures are unimesh but Poser doesn't support that at geometry level. As soon as you load a figure, Poser breaks it into split groups, and that is the source for all sorts of rigging and morphing issues. For once, it cannot export figures in a single piece, so we cannot use any OBJ created by Poser. All content creators know that. There are also minor problems that SMS could had fixed if they wanted to. For example, whenever we save a prop to the library, Poser will embed the geometry into the PP2, which no content store will accept, so we need special external tools to extract it. Another one: when we save a newly rigged figure to the library, it will place the [broken] OBJ in the same folder as the CR2, and not at the geometries folder where it should be. This is not acceptable in any content store, but we have to accept it from SMS.

I am positive it was the SMS admins who pushed adding new features to Poser instead of fixing the more critical issues. These businessmen are not Poser users, and are not programmers, and yet, they claim not to fix what is "not broken". In all the years I have worked with software development, it has always been like this, so this is definitely NOT unique to SMS. As far as I know, the programmers don't decide anything, they just do what they are told by people who are not from the same field and don't even use the software, but make all the major decisions. In my experience, that is as frustrating to the programmers as it is to the users.

Nothing you just said, contradicts my assertions.

 

[Ken1171]

Nothing you just said, contradicts my assertions.

You were saying they were not good software developers, when in reality the problem is with the businessmen who make the actual decisions. The software development is [was] good, but the upstairs decisions were not. I have listed several examples of bad SMS decisions that led to the current demise. I keep stating these because Poser is a GOOD product that has been mismanaged over the years.

Look at the fuss DAZ makes over dynamic cloth - where was the fuss for that in Poser? Was there ever one? Why not? I even have the impression people started to use more dynamic cloth in Poser now because... of the fuss on the DS community. It came to fashion because DAZ knows how to advertise features, sometimes more than they deserve, but ads are the soul of a business. There is no such thing as too much advertisement.

I know SMS has picked the Poser train when it was already running, but even trains don't run on their own. When SMS picked Poser, it was already half-dipped into the mud after a decade of mediocre releases with plenty of stagnation. The ability to UNDO things was a big "new feature" in Poser 7 (I think it was Poser 7). The other big new feature was a memory manager, so Poser won't crash when you load another figure. That's how primitive Poser was not long ago. SMS made it a more solid program, but it was building over a bad core that doesn't support unimesh, and that's the root of many evils. Last time I talked to the original dev team, they said that "fixing" this would mean rewriting the Poser core, which would affect *everything*. That would mean recreating Poser from scratch. That's the kind of things the SMS businessmen wouldn't allow to happen, because it would be risky, expensive, and would take long to finish. In the minds of businessmen, if Poser is still selling, then it is not broken and it doesn't need fixing. That's why we still have Poser 3 issues in Poser 11. It has nothing to do with software development, and probably never will.

I was told that with DAZ things were a little different. They make contents, so DS got direct feedback from artists as it was being developed. Conversely, SMS has no PR we can speak off, so there is/was no interaction with the community. Right now they still won't talk to us. So it's not just the SMS bad decisions, but also the lack of communication with the community that have undermined Poser over time.

 

[Deleted member 325]

But S-M excels at alienating itself from the people that PAY them. Their tech support? I can name him but won't. ...I'm still angry at (unnamed someone) for their responses concerning the crashing issues.

I am pretty sure I know exactly who you mean, and his response to my inquiries about problems exporting movies and with the movie node are just plain ignorant for someone in Tech support. It took 4 months of arguing for him to admit they changed How poser handles video files (it now uses exclusively Windows Media Foundation...does not support Direct Draw, or Direct X objects, which is why so many User videos and CoDecs will not work - has nothing to do with 64 bit) and then still swore nothing in Poser changed because "It uses the OS"... just completely uneducated answers for tech support.

 

[McG.]

I think he is and has always been there to buffer the devs. It isn't his fault really, he is (I think) just relaying answers. Its speculation though, I don't KNOW it.

The software. Both platforms have issues. I won't use one guys horse but do the other guys. And it isn't the horses fault it has issues. Its the owners of those horses.

The thread title; CP is shutting down. Has there always been a CP? I remember finding CP and Renderosity FROM the DAZ3D store. They allowed those stores to sell their content through DAZ. That's where I bought Poser 6, then later I got Poser 7 and Poser Pro/Modo 201 through DAZ. But there WAS a CP to go to. After the Poser Pro/Modo purchase, seems DAZ stopped selling other stores content and software. Took me quite a while to figure out whose was whose and where! I'll miss CP. I miss RDNA.

 

[Ken1171]

Has there always been a CP?

I think CP came up somewhere between Poser 5 and 7. Then Chris here said DAZ Studio was created exactly because CP was threatening DAZ as a content store, or so they believed back in the day. The truth is that CP has never competed at the same level as DAZ, even when it was still new and dandy. It was all about which store had the power to attract the most significant vendors, and perhaps it still is. So much that, in all of it's history, to this date CP didn't even deserve a mention at Wikipedia. Neither did RDNA. Like it was with Peter Pan, these places would only have existed for as long as we remember them.

 

[eclark1894]

You were saying they were not good software developers, when in reality the problem is with the businessmen who make the actual decisions. The software development is [was] good, but the upstairs decisions were not. I have listed several examples of bad SMS decisions that led to the current demise. I keep stating these because Poser is a GOOD product that has been mismanaged over the years.

Look at the fuss DAZ makes over dynamic cloth - where was the fuss for that in Poser? Was there ever one? Why not? I even have the impression people started to use more dynamic cloth in Poser now because... of the fuss on the DS community. It came to fashion because DAZ knows how to advertise features, sometimes more than they deserve, but ads are the soul of a business. There is no such thing as too much advertisement.

Over the years, I have said this as well about SM. They have no marketing and no strategy. The closest they ever get to the idea is when they do a webinar video. It wouldn't hurt them to promote a contest. I even suggested they do one when they tried that pitiful update to CP and it was shot down. They don't even try.

PS: CP was start by E FRontier. I may even have been one of their stores from before they bought Poser.

 

[Ken1171]

Over the years, I have said this as well about SM. They have no marketing and no strategy. The closest they ever get to the idea is when they do a webinar video. It wouldn't hurt them to promote a contest. I even suggested they do one when they tried that pitiful update to CP and it was shot down. They don't even try.

PS: CP was start by E FRontier. I may even have been one of their stores from before they bought Poser.

I guess there is no amount of suggestions that will make SM properly advertise Poser. They want it to live of the glories of the past, when there was no DS to compete with. If not for anything else, we owe to CP the creation of DS, without which Poser would still have no UNDO and the next version would come with a different interface color. Whatever happens to Poser 12, it will be made by a different dev team, so anything can happen. Either they take it seriously, or there will be as much innovation as the last CP face lift. At some point SM will have to figure out what they want Poser to be.

 

[Janet]

Why didn't RDNA deserve a mention? I always thought they were top notch.

 

[Ken1171]

Yeah, it deserved a mention, but no one thought of writing one.

 

[eclark1894]

For that matter, so did Animotions. I don't mourn too hard the loss of Content Paradise, though. It's the store that never tried as far as I'm concerned.

And i did try. I even convinced them to let me put this render on the large splash screen that used to greet people. They did it for one month. I thought they would allow others to try it, never saw it go anywhere.

 

[Ken1171]

I think many of us tried. My store has been running there for over a decade, but it didn't take long to realize SM wasn't invested on it. I am surprised it has lasted this long.

 

[McG.]

I popped into this scene in 2002. I was searching for stuff to use in making cool stuff for QUAKE player model and asset textures. Was looking for an old DOS executable called DAZZLE. I stumbled into (can ya guess yet?) DAZ. Hey now this is interesting! I thought. I was surprised to see humans, animals, architecture and texture sets. It was all fascinating. It was my foot in the door to this community. Just blundering around the DAZ site, I did manage to download the then early beta of DS. I was sure I'd missed a file or two cause there was no way to MAKE a model, no mesh stuff at all. I knew nothing yet about Poser. Finding my way to the Forums soon cured that problem. So I read about it, and watched, and read. It's how I discovered alt.binaries.3d.poser which I still use today. I used Studio continuously for almost 5 years. Then sporadically, occasionally until I lost my BIG Runtime drive. In 2006 I bought Poser. And I loved that program! It was just easier for me to use. So I never did get the Quake skins done. And PC Games took back seat to this 3D stuff. THIS became my computer game. What I found at DAZ store was content from all the main sources. And honestly, if I hadn't seen these stores own receipts in my email along with the DAZ receipts, I doubt I'd have been in and using Content Paradise, Renderosity and RDNA's actual stores as soon as I did. When I bought Poser 6, I finally went to their sites proper. 2006. Interesting year for me! I'd been seeing references many times to a Content Paradise and Sixus1Media. They'd been getting some of my money so yeah, I noticed LOL!
So I know CP existed in 2002, right alongside Sixus1, Rendo, RDNA and DAZ. Dan Farr hosted all the people back then. I see we all have him to thank for the community increasing in range and popularity. Y'all are right, DAZ advertises stuff. In more places than you realize. DAZ is also partially responsible for the popularity of POSER. The rest would be word of mouth, US.
DAZ as it exists now is determined to OWN the ready to use content industry. Yeah I said that right. You can add/subtract whatever you want, but that IS DAZ3D's course. So IF Poser fails and folds because no one else 'big' is supporting it, oh well, them's the breaks kid. S-M as iterated many times already never wanted to deal with the content. BUT the DEVS did, and it already HAD a ton of ready made content. SO that got improved, got some additions and its provided free with program purchase. I expect S-M to continue to provide content WITH Poser as long as Poser is being produced and sold. The CP store, will finally close for good it seems. 16 years of nosing around, peeking in, picking up the odd freebie and paid item. Pretty much gone. One store isn't so bad a thing. 5 stores in a tad over 2 years closing up for good, well that is just about devastating to lots of us.
Just how is HiveWire faring through all this? I hope for you people that make up the place are doing ok! I hope the site and store continue, and thrive.

 

[McG.]

BTW, I believe that DAN is doing this to improve surviveability of our community. Without SOME resources external to each of us, where will we connect? This community is already very fragmented. You'd have to hit 50 different forums all over the world to really get up on our little world. DAZ and Renderosity are THE two remaining hubs for the community. I'm serious.

Kinda funny, that Sixus1 is where it all began. How many of this community are even aware they exist, even now? Do they know they have their own store on site? And have a big presence at Rendo? At ShareCG? Still make and sell Figures for our community's "toy" software? Yeah, the 3D INDUSTRY see's our DS and Poser as TOY 3D software. Because they aren't also modelers. Vue has more positive impact. It creates entire scenery, even worlds, that's its thing. But DS and Poser? They're just assembly ROOMS. Really. It is of no consequence to those people, the majority of the industry, if DS and Poser vanish forever. I don't think Dan Farr ever much liked that.
So I thank Dan right now for doing the most I've seen yet to keep the doors open and increase popularity for our software AND our Content.

 

[Ken1171]

I think Dan Farr is no longer in the 3D business. It has been a few years actually.

 

[eclark1894]

I'm still hoping Poser survives. Ironically, however, I'm going to learn how to rig figures like Dusk and Dawn in Blender for my Personal use. There's actually a growing industry of ready made assets for programs like Blender, and many of the features that I wish Poser would incorporate, Blender already does.

 

[McG.]

I'm not so sure Dan completely left DAZ. I thought he did. But now, I wonder.
But it was Dan that pushed it all up and made a small mountain out of a crawdad tower in the first place. Dan DID all that I said by the time he 'sold it'. THAT occurred the same time that the Comptroller for the State of Texas required DAZ3D to begin collecting Texas State Sales Tax from Texans buying stuff there. That means that DAZ now has brick and mortar IN Texas. That other company they merged with? Yeah? Dan supposedly left then, right?