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Getting used to new habits for Coronavirus....
- Thread starter Roberta
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- contagion coronavirus
eclark1894
Visionary
Isn't that what you expect people who don't want to get vaccinated to do? And what DO you expect people who can't get vaccinated to do? Just because they CAN'T get vaccinated doesn't mean they can't get or pass the virus to someone else who also can't get vaccinated. All I'm suggesting is that if you know you're sick or have to go around someone who's vulnerable, you should take precautions. Just like we've been doing for the last two years, or when you have the flu, or a cold. Or the measles. Isolate yourself. When it passes, you'll have immunity and won't NEED to be vaccinated.
robert952
Brilliant
Incentive for vaccination? How about this:
"A new study found that more than 99% of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 during the first four months of 2021 weren’t fully vaccinated."
Source: webmd link.
I won't get into the ethical/philosophic/theological reasons for not getting vaccinated. I would hope people would consider the greater good. But I know some will not consider that.
I would support mandatory vaccination as a requirement/condition for employment as long as it is applied to current and future employees. Then it's a personal choice "do I want the job or not?" as each person considers their personal situation. (Consider the question: do I want to be tested for drug use or not, which has been a condition of employment for many years. And random drug testing by employers is not unusual either. Similar in that these are conditions for employment. )
"A new study found that more than 99% of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 during the first four months of 2021 weren’t fully vaccinated."
Source: webmd link.
I won't get into the ethical/philosophic/theological reasons for not getting vaccinated. I would hope people would consider the greater good. But I know some will not consider that.
I would support mandatory vaccination as a requirement/condition for employment as long as it is applied to current and future employees. Then it's a personal choice "do I want the job or not?" as each person considers their personal situation. (Consider the question: do I want to be tested for drug use or not, which has been a condition of employment for many years. And random drug testing by employers is not unusual either. Similar in that these are conditions for employment. )
eclark1894
Visionary
The only problem I have about mandating vaccination is that this vaccine is STILL essentially experimental. We don't KNOW if there will be any long term effects from getting vaccinated, but everyone that wants to get you vaccinated are conveniently insulating themselves or others from any possibility of being sued if something goes wrong.
What is the harm for everyone to continue to wear a mask, avoid crowds, and observe physical distancing until the Pandemic is truly over?
Worldwide, the current percent of people who are fully vaccinated is less than 11%. India is less than 5%. Brazil is less than 15%. Mexico is 15%. Canada is less than 30%. Both the UK and the US are close to, but still less than 50%. Within the US, Mississippi is less than 30%, while Vermont is 65.6%. All other states fall in between those percentages. Within PA, the vaccination rate by county varies between 25% to about 61%.
Philadelphia claims we are at 57.2% fully vaccinated. Yet 3/4 of the city is less than that. About 1/3 of the zip code areas are less than 30% fully vaccinated, including the zip code where I live and the zip code where I work.
Philadelphia is still at a high risk of community transmission, and we now have cases of the Delta variant. Because Philadelphia no longer reports the number of cases, it's no longer possible for us to track whether cases are raising or falling.
It's easy to say that it's the responsibility of those who are not vaccinated or those who are fully vaccinated, but still at high risk of becoming infected, to avoid others. But what do you do when your employer demands you return to the office and does not provide a safe environment for those at risk?
Worldwide, the current percent of people who are fully vaccinated is less than 11%. India is less than 5%. Brazil is less than 15%. Mexico is 15%. Canada is less than 30%. Both the UK and the US are close to, but still less than 50%. Within the US, Mississippi is less than 30%, while Vermont is 65.6%. All other states fall in between those percentages. Within PA, the vaccination rate by county varies between 25% to about 61%.
Philadelphia claims we are at 57.2% fully vaccinated. Yet 3/4 of the city is less than that. About 1/3 of the zip code areas are less than 30% fully vaccinated, including the zip code where I live and the zip code where I work.
Philadelphia is still at a high risk of community transmission, and we now have cases of the Delta variant. Because Philadelphia no longer reports the number of cases, it's no longer possible for us to track whether cases are raising or falling.
It's easy to say that it's the responsibility of those who are not vaccinated or those who are fully vaccinated, but still at high risk of becoming infected, to avoid others. But what do you do when your employer demands you return to the office and does not provide a safe environment for those at risk?
DanaTA
Distinguished
I, and medical people in general and the CDC, expect people who don't want the vaccine to continue wearing masks when in public places, or even in their homes with people who don't live with them and aren't vaccinated.
One problem with that is the ethics of many US citizens...they will take advantage of the loosening of the restrictions and go out without a mask even if they are not vaccinated. It is a big concern. People in restaurants, bars and other crowded venues...no mask, are they fully vaccinated? Without enforcing viewing the vaccine cards, there's really no way of telling. And we are not enforcing that for the most part. There may be some business that will ask to see proof, but most are just trusting people to be honest about it.
One problem with that is the ethics of many US citizens...they will take advantage of the loosening of the restrictions and go out without a mask even if they are not vaccinated. It is a big concern. People in restaurants, bars and other crowded venues...no mask, are they fully vaccinated? Without enforcing viewing the vaccine cards, there's really no way of telling. And we are not enforcing that for the most part. There may be some business that will ask to see proof, but most are just trusting people to be honest about it.
Hornet3d
Wise
Both my wife and I have had both our jabs more than two weeks ago but we still mask up when going shopping, and we continue to follow social distancing rules. We intend to continue to do this when lockdown is lifted.
robert952
Brilliant
Agreed that the vaccine's long term affects are not 100% known, doubt they will ever be 100%. But I believe I weighed the risks. I think the 'experimental' aspects of the vaccine are not as great as some think (Opinion). CoVid variations have been the basis for flu vaccines for decades. That was one reason they could come up with a vaccine so quickly: experience with the already known variants of the basic structure of CoVid viruses (Arguable Facts). It's these opinions and arguments people might use to make a decision to vaccinate or not.
Yes, everyone is out to protect themselves as they see fit. It's not just law suits. If, as happened with many companies, I had to shut down operations and took financial losses, I'd do what I thought I needed to keep viable moving forward. Mandatory vaccination may be one of those things I'd do.
As an employer interviewing a potential employee, I present the terms and conditions for employment. I send an offer letter to the 'successful candidate.' Along with the decision of accepting a position based on salary and benefits, the applicant has to decide if they accept other conditions of employment like: being tested for drugs and providing proof of vaccination against CoVid.
BTW, HIPPA - the laws protecting my medical information in the US provides me a way to opt out. While I agree that I have a right to privacy, I choose what information is released. I can choose to prove vaccination, but I am not required to state if I have some form of cancer. (For company paid health insurance, that's a different matter with regards to preexisting conditions.)
Masks: I and DW wear masks when in public enclosed places even though we're both fully vaccinated. Outdoors, we're more lax about it but keep our distance where possible and put on the mask if it gets crowded. Exceptions: Family gatherings, as extended family is vaccinated.
(My 'routine' before going out on a venture: keys, check; wallet, check; cell phone, check; mask, check. Remembering where I was going...50-50 on that.)
Yes, everyone is out to protect themselves as they see fit. It's not just law suits. If, as happened with many companies, I had to shut down operations and took financial losses, I'd do what I thought I needed to keep viable moving forward. Mandatory vaccination may be one of those things I'd do.
As an employer interviewing a potential employee, I present the terms and conditions for employment. I send an offer letter to the 'successful candidate.' Along with the decision of accepting a position based on salary and benefits, the applicant has to decide if they accept other conditions of employment like: being tested for drugs and providing proof of vaccination against CoVid.
BTW, HIPPA - the laws protecting my medical information in the US provides me a way to opt out. While I agree that I have a right to privacy, I choose what information is released. I can choose to prove vaccination, but I am not required to state if I have some form of cancer. (For company paid health insurance, that's a different matter with regards to preexisting conditions.)
Masks: I and DW wear masks when in public enclosed places even though we're both fully vaccinated. Outdoors, we're more lax about it but keep our distance where possible and put on the mask if it gets crowded. Exceptions: Family gatherings, as extended family is vaccinated.
(My 'routine' before going out on a venture: keys, check; wallet, check; cell phone, check; mask, check. Remembering where I was going...50-50 on that.)
eclark1894
Visionary
Ironically, now that I've retired, I don't actually go out anywhere except to the store, pharmacy, or clinic/hospital. I wear a mask everywhere except my home.
You will take also full responsibility for heavy side effects on people which you force the Vaccine on?
So, I had Covid 2 times. I have anti bodies in my body. And now you want to force on me a Vaccine? And if I did not take it I am the bad? Why? I have anti bodies like the vaccinated one, even better, because created/tailored from my own immun system. I can deal better with mutations than the vaccinated ones.
Who are you to decide over other people health? You take responsibility when people get heavy side effects or die from the Vaccine?
When somebody has a weak immune system, it is on them to protect them self. When I know for sure that somebody is weak/sick, I stay away, but
you can not lock up healthy people .
I think nobody can decide for others what they should take or not. Every each of us is different, with different backgrounds and health records.
Only you and you doctor can make decisions here. Forcing others and blackmail them to take risks because you are afraid, is wrong on many levels.
I usually take very good medicament/vaccines. But a few years ago, I had a Bladder infection and my doctor give me new antibiotic . he said it is less harmful to the kidney and liver. After take the first one, 5 minutes later I collapsed. (My blood pressure go down )It was the first time in my live that I react so bad to a medicament.
There is always a danger when you take heavy medicament/Vaccines. This is why I would never put pressure on somebody to take it. It is always the responsibility on our own to take care and protect our self. I can not demand others to protect me.
Only you and you doctor can make decisions here. Forcing others and blackmail them to take risks because you are afraid, is wrong on many levels.
I usually take very good medicament/vaccines. But a few years ago, I had a Bladder infection and my doctor give me new antibiotic . he said it is less harmful to the kidney and liver. After take the first one, 5 minutes later I collapsed. (My blood pressure go down )It was the first time in my live that I react so bad to a medicament.
There is always a danger when you take heavy medicament/Vaccines. This is why I would never put pressure on somebody to take it. It is always the responsibility on our own to take care and protect our self. I can not demand others to protect me.
Hornet3d
Wise
Sorry to have to say it but with something like covid tearing through the population we really don't need to make matters worse by arguing with each other. We all have different views based, not only on who we are, but also on the state of those close to us that we love and, on top of all of that, we have add our views on life both before and after covid hit. With such a vast number of variables it often makes it hard for our head and our hearts to agree so there is little wonder that some view points will clash. With quite literally life threatening decisions to make it is so hard to see how someone has arrived at a certain view and thus difficult to understand a respect those views.
As someone who is elderly with type two diabetes and who is over weight I guess I would be regarded as someone who is at high risk but then I also have to think of my in laws both of whom are in their eighties. I would hate to be the person to give them anything that will make them ill let alone something that may kill but I also try and understand the impact on them being alone for months at a time if my wife and I chose not to visit them at all. If I step out of the immediate family I also must give some thought to all my neighbours, particularly those that live alone and are in their nineties. Whatever decision I come to will be difficult for me so I do understand that others will find whatever decisions I make to be wrong in their eyes.
There is nothing that has been said here (so far) that I totally disagree with and if I do have to take issue with someone I am more likely to aim my sights on those that spend their time trying to convince others that the pandemic is a hoax. To those who abuse our medical people, both mentally and physically, because they either do not like lockdown or feel they are part of that hoax.
As someone who is elderly with type two diabetes and who is over weight I guess I would be regarded as someone who is at high risk but then I also have to think of my in laws both of whom are in their eighties. I would hate to be the person to give them anything that will make them ill let alone something that may kill but I also try and understand the impact on them being alone for months at a time if my wife and I chose not to visit them at all. If I step out of the immediate family I also must give some thought to all my neighbours, particularly those that live alone and are in their nineties. Whatever decision I come to will be difficult for me so I do understand that others will find whatever decisions I make to be wrong in their eyes.
There is nothing that has been said here (so far) that I totally disagree with and if I do have to take issue with someone I am more likely to aim my sights on those that spend their time trying to convince others that the pandemic is a hoax. To those who abuse our medical people, both mentally and physically, because they either do not like lockdown or feel they are part of that hoax.
eclark1894
Visionary
While I'm not pro vaccine mandates, I'm not completely against the vaccine either. I only question the efficacy of the vaccine. The one thing I actually DO resent is the idea that we need to produce "papers" (vaccine cards) to prove that we've been vaccinated. I just flat out refuse. People have had to produce "papers" under the Romans, the Germans, and under slavery in the US. I refuse. I wouldn't be surprised if, like they did at the beginning of this pandemic, someone thinks the unvaccinated should be rounded up and locked away for the "protection" of others.
Hornet3d
Wise
My views in this respect are very close to your although the idea of having to show papers does not upset me too much but I don't want to do it. So when the lockdown rules are lifted I will not be going out to the pub or restaurant or indeed any venue where papers are required.
parkdalegardener
Adventurous
"Vaccine Passports" is the term used around here for proof of vaccination. Nobody over 30 cares. Everyone under 30 thinks the world will disintegrate without them. No such thing will ever be mandated for use domestically in Canada. The law does not allow it. Such a thing will most likely be required for international travel.
I must be too old or something. Does nobody recall the little yellow book (International Vaccination Certification) that one needed in addition to a passport to travel to a lot of countries world wide? I still have an old expired one along with my old expired passport. At one time I couldn't travel to Africa and some European countries without one.
If a company mandates their employees wear a mask or get a jab so be it. That is a condition put forth by an employer not the government. I see in the States that you can't go to some shows or businesses unless you are fully vaccinated. That cannot happen here. Privacy laws respect your right to keep your medical history to yourself. You won't be kept out of the pub if you don't show your "papers". You won't be kept out of a concert because you refuse to prove your "status".
I can foresee a time in the near future where a business posts a sign or advertises the fact that their employees are fully vaccinated. I would be more likely to enter a restaurant with such a sign than one without. Thankfully however, it doesn't look like it will get to that point. At least I hope not.
I personally think people are getting all bent out of shape over nothing. In this day and age everyone has an opinion and a way to express it. Makes for a lot of noise. Most folk are not as important or as influential as they would like to think they are. Me included.
The thing I get a kick out of is the "I don't trust the vaccine" people that run out to their doctors office to get jabbed with, for instance, Botulism so their lips will pout nicely for their constant selfies. The number of medications only available by injection that are marketed to folk over the TV is astonishing. You name it and their is an injection for it. If Big Pharma stopped advertising on some television stations my cable tv choices would halve. People seem quite willing to take a shot with the possible side effect of death simply to have clearer skin? That is safer than the vaccines in what way?
I must be too old or something. Does nobody recall the little yellow book (International Vaccination Certification) that one needed in addition to a passport to travel to a lot of countries world wide? I still have an old expired one along with my old expired passport. At one time I couldn't travel to Africa and some European countries without one.
If a company mandates their employees wear a mask or get a jab so be it. That is a condition put forth by an employer not the government. I see in the States that you can't go to some shows or businesses unless you are fully vaccinated. That cannot happen here. Privacy laws respect your right to keep your medical history to yourself. You won't be kept out of the pub if you don't show your "papers". You won't be kept out of a concert because you refuse to prove your "status".
I can foresee a time in the near future where a business posts a sign or advertises the fact that their employees are fully vaccinated. I would be more likely to enter a restaurant with such a sign than one without. Thankfully however, it doesn't look like it will get to that point. At least I hope not.
I personally think people are getting all bent out of shape over nothing. In this day and age everyone has an opinion and a way to express it. Makes for a lot of noise. Most folk are not as important or as influential as they would like to think they are. Me included.
The thing I get a kick out of is the "I don't trust the vaccine" people that run out to their doctors office to get jabbed with, for instance, Botulism so their lips will pout nicely for their constant selfies. The number of medications only available by injection that are marketed to folk over the TV is astonishing. You name it and their is an injection for it. If Big Pharma stopped advertising on some television stations my cable tv choices would halve. People seem quite willing to take a shot with the possible side effect of death simply to have clearer skin? That is safer than the vaccines in what way?
eclark1894
Visionary
I don't completely disagree with you. However, if you work for a company and they changes the rules of your employment to REQUIRE you to get the vaccine, yeah, I do have a problem with that. If you're trying to get a job with them and they require you get a shot, that's different. You already know what your'e getting into then, and it's your choice. And I'm not getting bent out of shape. I simply disagree.
robert952
Brilliant
@AnimaGemini The responsibility is the employee's. They decide to take the vaccination or not. I do not make that decision for them. I only set the terms and conditions of the job offer outlining the job requirements.
I know it is extremely pragmatic. The decision is up to the individual to decide. I am not forcing them to come to work for me.
@eclark1894 Even if I have a job, I feel my employer can change policies. I have to decide if I want to do what is necessary to comply with the requirements. I worked for (basically) the same company for 45+ years - a rarity today. The company changed names, was bought out, parts sold off, and such. Many of those resulted in policy changes from those I was hired under. At some point I had to acknowledge and sometimes formally accept the changes - i.e. sign documents. I will admit that CoVid makes a greater impact on people's decisions than things like: "you can no longer carry unused vacation into the next year." And some changes can be life changing: 'Your job is moving to a different city. We are offering you your job at the new location. Sign here if you are willing to relocate.' Overall, IMHO a company has the right to operate as they deem necessary. That includes vaccination policy.
I know it is extremely pragmatic. The decision is up to the individual to decide. I am not forcing them to come to work for me.
@eclark1894 Even if I have a job, I feel my employer can change policies. I have to decide if I want to do what is necessary to comply with the requirements. I worked for (basically) the same company for 45+ years - a rarity today. The company changed names, was bought out, parts sold off, and such. Many of those resulted in policy changes from those I was hired under. At some point I had to acknowledge and sometimes formally accept the changes - i.e. sign documents. I will admit that CoVid makes a greater impact on people's decisions than things like: "you can no longer carry unused vacation into the next year." And some changes can be life changing: 'Your job is moving to a different city. We are offering you your job at the new location. Sign here if you are willing to relocate.' Overall, IMHO a company has the right to operate as they deem necessary. That includes vaccination policy.
robert952
Brilliant
@parkdalegardener I found your comments spot on with what people do on one side of the coin and say with the other.
I always get a laugh from the list of side effects for drugs on advertisements. Particularly like the one that lists constipation AND diarrhea as possible side effects. (Aren't those diametrically opposing?)
I had some joint pain and was taking Advil. But it wasn't helping enough. My Dr prescribed a higher dose NSAID. He stated the side effects of the drug. I commented on the long list of all the side effects. He replied, "Read the Advil label. It's exactly the same list." People don't realize nor read about what they put into or on their bodies. And they seem to think that since it's available without prescription, it must be ok to use.
So, again, it comes down to personal choice tempered with other facts and opinions on taking drugs, shots and such.
I always get a laugh from the list of side effects for drugs on advertisements. Particularly like the one that lists constipation AND diarrhea as possible side effects. (Aren't those diametrically opposing?)
I had some joint pain and was taking Advil. But it wasn't helping enough. My Dr prescribed a higher dose NSAID. He stated the side effects of the drug. I commented on the long list of all the side effects. He replied, "Read the Advil label. It's exactly the same list." People don't realize nor read about what they put into or on their bodies. And they seem to think that since it's available without prescription, it must be ok to use.
So, again, it comes down to personal choice tempered with other facts and opinions on taking drugs, shots and such.
eclark1894
Visionary
I'm not making any comment or opinion on this post. I just thought it was both interesting and something that since we were already discussing something like it, that it would fit right in and that I would share it with you.
#CNN #Covid #Vaccine CNN boss Jeff Zucker recently sent a notice to all employees that they must be fully vaccinated for Covid by June 1 or they can't come into any of the CNN properties in the USA. They are also requiring all in-studio guests to show proof of vaccination.
#CNN #Covid #Vaccine CNN boss Jeff Zucker recently sent a notice to all employees that they must be fully vaccinated for Covid by June 1 or they can't come into any of the CNN properties in the USA. They are also requiring all in-studio guests to show proof of vaccination.