Poser on borrowed time?

[Alisa]

No, Alisa, I don't mind at all. And thank you. i wasn't sure about linking to another forum, and I only included the other post for context.

Linking to another forum to point out something isn't a problem, but in this case, it seemed nicer to have your comments here .

So how much has Poser sold for when it shifted from company to company?
How much do you think it will sell for this time?

Well, first, it's not for sale at this point
I don't know if the information of how much it's sold for is publicly available or not...but just for fun, here's a list of the 5 companies and who's owned it when and for what versions

1995 Fractal Design (Poser 1 & 2) I actually still have an original disc from Fractal Design, though it won't install . Can't find what I paid for Poser 1, but I paid $9.50 for the upgrade to Poser 2.

1997 MetaCreations (Poser 3)

1999 Curious Labs (Poser 4,5, Pro Pack, 6)

2003 e-frontier (Poser 6, 7)

2007 Smith Micro (also bought Anime Studio and Manga Studio) (Poser Pro, Poser 8. Poser Pro 2010, Poser Debut, Poser 9/Poser Pro 2012, Poser 10/Poser Pro 2014, Poser 11/Poser 11 Pro)

Munches on popcorn and passes the tim tams round.

I actually have HAD tim tams, now - they sell them in stores here

 

[VortigensBane]

Tim tams require coffee... Copious amounts of chocolate are also required to read a thread with such a depressing theme.

Interesting to see the different companies which have owned Poser over the years. Unlike Alisa, my first Poser was Poser 9.

 

[CNorth]

I don't know about anyone else but all the Gen figures look the same I just wish all the venders would still suport Poser with V4 and M4 and God forbid Daz takes it over it would definately go the wayside

Thank you! Finally someone see things my way :-D

 

[phdubrov]

Make me wish more for the universal bridge, say Poser-Blender-DS... with material transfer.
Theoretically speaking, I even can do it, but can't justify amount of time needed...

 

[VortigensBane]

Definitely not enough differences between genesis based characters. There are, of course, some notable exceptions, but most of the time, all the characters by the same artist look very similar. Sometimes they even share skin elements like freckles and moles.

 

[VortigensBane]

Material transfer is definitely a must for me; I can't make my own 'cause I'm color blind, so I have to trust the software... I would love the Poser-Blender-DAZ bridge!

 

[phdubrov]

Sometimes they even share skin elements like freckles and moles.

I'd say most of the time... But many V4/M4 characters too...

 

[Hornet3d]

Linking to another forum to point out something isn't a problem, but in this case, it seemed nicer to have your comments here .



Well, first, it's not for sale at this point
I don't know if the information of how much it's sold for is publicly available or not...but just for fun, here's a list of the 5 companies and who's owned it when and for what versions

1995 Fractal Design (Poser 1 & 2) I actually still have an original disc from Fractal Design, though it won't install . Can't find what I paid for Poser 1, but I paid $9.50 for the upgrade to Poser 2.

1997 MetaCreations (Poser 3)

1999 Curious Labs (Poser 4,5, Pro Pack, 6)

2003 e-frontier (Poser 6, 7)

2007 Smith Micro (also bought Anime Studio and Manga Studio) (Poser Pro, Poser 8. Poser Pro 2010, Poser Debut, Poser 9/Poser Pro 2012, Poser 10/Poser Pro 2014, Poser 11/Poser 11 Pro)

That's interesting I stated using Daz in 2000 and remember doing what I thought was a upgrade to Poser 5 some years later. Not knocking Daz but I was very new to 3D at that time and I assumed that a paid program just had to be more serious than a free one. In my defense I did not know/understand the differing marketing strategies at that time. I know I upgraded to Poser 6 when it came available and upgraded to Poser 7 in 2006 at a price, for me that was difficult to find the money for, of $160. I upgraded to Poser 8 but not long after upgraded again to Poser Pro 2010, in 2010, for $299. Then came the upgrade to Pro 2012, Pro 2014 and even Game Dev, which I did regret slightly as found the marketing of the 'new features' a little underhand. I know others disagree but to say I was disappointed was/is factually correct.

I have been tempted to upgrade to Poser 11 pro more than once but I have retired since the heady days of paying $299 in 2010 and I have a harder time justifying the outlay. I even got the the checkout on one occasion when it was on sale but once the £-$ exchange rate was taken into account followed by 20% VAT (Vague Additions to Total) the end price was very different to the sale price and I decided to abort.

So that gives me a history of around 14 years with Poser and I cannot think of any point where the future of Poser was any different than today, except on occasions when it has been worse, not better. Am I concerned ? Well to some degree, yes, but I guess after 14 years I have got into the habit sitting back and watching with interest what turn this journey will take next.

I am also of an age that means the future of Poser will have little impact on the years I have left, it will have a bigger impact on the younger souls that follow. Looking at present state of the UK I think the younger souls will have far more to worry about that Poser but then I am getting into politics which I do not want to do, I am just trying to bring things into focus.

I do have one question to ask though, I asked elsewhere but so far no real answer, assuming there is one. At what point is a piece of 3D software considered obsolete, is it when the vendors can no longer make a profit or when the last person stops using it ?

 

[Hornet3d]

So I'd just like to add some of my thoughts to this initial topic, based on my experience and direct conversations that I've had.

I've spoken with Charles Taylor right after he was laid off at Smith Micro, along with their development team back before Thanksgiving of 2016.

I've had a lengthy phone conversation, followed up by emails with Larry Weinberg (the architect of Poser) at the beginning of this year.

I've talked directly by phone with a VP (won't mention his name here) at Smith Micro in January.

I've had various Skype meetings with others (won't mention their names either) at Smith Micro this year.

I mention Charles and Larry by name because they are no longer employed by Smith Micro.

I will say based on my conversations with these people that I'm deeply concerned about the future of Poser. I have more specific thoughts that I'll keep to myself, because I do wish the best for Poser, and want it to be successful. We support Poser and the large part of our customer base come from Poser users.

I believe that a course correction needs to take place with Poser in order for it to be successful and competitive. I spoke very directly to those currently involved with Poser about this. I even outlined my recipe for them to turn things around. They were very respectful and polite to what I had to say and share, based on my experience at DAZ, being their direct competitor. I'm not saying I'm the expert, but only shared my thoughts from my experience of being very successful at DAZ in growing a content business around a free software offering.

My feeling is that they should have reinvented themselves many, many years ago, but instead DAZ took the opportunity to drive hard to set a new software/content paradigm that Poser has not effectively reacted to.

It's evident to me at least, that those involved directly in the future of Poser have their backs against the wall, and some how need to pull out a miracle to turn things around before those that control its future decide it's a liability rather than an asset.

I value your view greatly so thank you so much for taking the time to share this information. It is always nice to have a glimpse behind the scenes through the eyes of someone with a much wider view and history than the most of rest of us.

 

[Hornet3d]

I didn't say otherwise. I said I wouldn't pay the prices.

Very important distinction just because I might see that the effort put into creating a product might be justified it does not mean I can afford it. What I am sure of is that, if I am paying top dollar for a product I want it to be very flexible and work straight from the box in the software I decide to use.

 

[Janet]

Guess I better save for a Poser cd. Animation is so much easier in it than in DS.

 

[Hornet3d]

Sales are way down and several staffers, including Syyd, were fired recently. And DAZ goes through the vendor list annually and culls those vendors who haven't sold enough. On top of that their attempt to bring Poser users back to them with the RDNA store purchase was largely unsuccessful, so corporate DAZ is not very happy.

Even BadKitteh (Connie) was complaining on Facebook recently about how bad sales are and voicing resentment toward vendors who are happy with "a couple hundred in sales" saying she can't live on that. She was talking about taking a full time job.

I had a real fear that this would be the possible outcome when the closure of RNDA was announced. It gives me no pleasure to think I was right Syyd deserved so much better than this.

 

[ibr_remote]

*I can only do this: whips out the Popcorn*

 

[Jay Versluis]

Gosh, have I been missing things in the news!

I had heard about the trouble at DAZ and that several people got fired, but that Syyd was one of them is a bit of a shocker to me. Imagine selling them your own company, taking a good job in their marketing department, relocating several thousand miles into the Utah desert, just to be layed off a year later? Others whom I've heard of were layed off after decades of working for them. Times must be tough indeed.

But Charles and Larry gone from the Poser team? Yikes! That's terrible news! Larry practically IS Poser, and when they took on Charles I remember thinking wow, things are going to get better for Poser. He's one of us, he knows what the Poser users want from Poser. Guess it didn't work out. Perhaps they didn't like the direction he wanted to take them in.

--
To get back to Dylan's headline for this thread: I think the trouble with Poser is that - although it has been maintained - it hasn't necessarily received updates beefy enough to warrant new paid versions every couple of years. Not for me at least. It feels like they're selling me the same thing they tried to sell me last year. Minor polishing in my book isn't a full update. Sure, the library browser is no longer Flash, and yes, we now have an additional unbiased render engine to choose from, but other than that Poser 11 Pro is still Poser Pro 2014. All the other core features have been there for several versions (and largely left untouched).

What I'm saying is that 5-6 years ago, those features inside a content manipulation app like Poser were hot property. Nobody else had them (apart from Carrara), not at comparable costs anyway. But Poser stopped bringing such innovative features to the table, and times have moved on. You get much of what Poser has to offer inside Blender for free, albeit not as easily accessible (yet). On the other end of the spectrum, you have apps like Marvelous Designer or Substance Painter, that do what Poser can do, just a lot better and quicker. So pro users turn to those.

I'm not saying lack of new features is bad, because perhaps Poser's feature set is complete and doesn't need "more". It's already more than Larry ever wanted out of his figure app. What I am saying though is that $200 every 2 years for the same thing is too much money, especially if your competition gives their software away for free. It's feels like a voluntary prescription service. And judging by the increased frequency of the Smith Micro newsletters recently, advertising constant software sales, SM don't take those first quarter results lightly. Could Poser suffer from the same fate as Carrara?

--
As for DAZ, although I love them dearly, their business plan reminds me of Polaroid and Kodak: they've stopped being innovative. There was a time where bringing out a new figure would make money for everyone. All content has to be recreated and re-marketetd, the older generation content can be put on sale, and the cash keeps rushing in like water down Niagra falls. That's especially true if the new figure is actually miles better than the previous one (say V3 to V4 for example). But Genesis 8 is the 5th or 6th iteration of the same thing, and customers are getting tired of it. They have learnt that the new figure doesn't benefit them when they buy it; it benefits the creators of said new figure. As a result, customers stick to thousands of sale items and play with those. There's enough previous-generation content on sale to last several lifetimes. How much longer will creating a new figure bring in cash? For DAZ or for us? Can content creation as we've known it generate enough cash to make a living in this day and age?

Polaroid and Kodak never saw their demise coming. The attitude was "it's going great, and this is never going to stop - because nobody does what we do". I'm just saying, content creators need to be very careful not to miss the passing train of passing times.

When customers abandoned instant pictures for digital ones, it was similar to what we see right now with our hobbyist 3D programmes here. This time, the enemies aren't called CMOS and CCD, they're called Unity and Unreal. Renderosity already have a category for such content. DAZ have Morph3D. Perhaps we should all focus our content creation efforts on ventures like those instead of DAZ Studio and Poser users? Or why stop there: Adobe are currently offering a service for auto-rigging and even animating figures for FREE (Adobe Fuse and Mixamo). It'll eventually be part of the Creative Cloud subscription. Can the human hand even compete with such services?

More food for thought.

 

[Hornet3d]

I'd say most of the time... But many V4/M4 characters too...

I think the same can be said for a great deal, if not all, of the figures generally available. I think I made a fair attempt to create something that did not look like V4 but then I was also aiming for a character slightly older than the V4 norm but it was a lot of hard work and as I am no morph expert used lots of commercially available content to blend the character. I think I made a better job with Dawn but then I had all the skills I had learnt from working with V4 and there were some great mature textures available as well. While my skills had improved I do think Dawn is a much easier figure to work from to avoid the similarities between characters.

 

[RAMWolff]

Yeah, exact same thoughts here, too.



Seeing as how I have never purchased a BadKitteh product (I'm sorry, prices are simply too high) I can't dispute anything you say here. But, frankly, some of these vendors are pricing themselves out of the hobbyist market - yes, I'm talking Stonemason, Aery Soul, BadKitteh, etc. If I DID use DS I wouldn't pay those prices.

There was a time when published artists were able to make house payments with their income they made from this industry. I remember a long time ago speaking with Anton (remember him, Apollo Maximus?) on the phone, he did so well he bought and paid for his house. Those days are LONG gone. The other thing that folks have to keep reminding themselves, ESP published artists, is that the amount of published artists in this industry has more than doubled over the past decade, everyone wants a piece of the pie so sales drop and as a result, artists like Stonemason and Connie, et all, raise the prices to try to compensate for their lost revenue but that backfires and they get stuck and we all get frustrated because our own financial struggles keep us from buying what we want because we can no longer afford it. NO fun, NO fair but it is what it is.

 

[Glitterati3D]

There was a time when published artists were able to make house payments with their income they made from this industry. I remember a long time ago speaking with Anton (remember him, Apollo Maximus?) on the phone, he did so well he bought and paid for his house. Those days are LONG gone. The other thing that folks have to keep reminding themselves, ESP published artists, is that the amount of published artists in this industry has more than doubled over the past decade, everyone wants a piece of the pie so sales drop and as a result, artists like Stonemason and Connie, et all, raise the prices to try to compensate for their lost revenue but that backfires and they get stuck and we all get frustrated because our own financial struggles keep us from buying what we want because we can no longer afford it. NO fun, NO fair but it is what it is.

This is exactly right. Those heady days when only one or two could make high quality models is long gone. There's a glut of content creators, and with the RDNA purchase, especially at DAZ. Frankly, I am surprised we haven't seen a culling already because of this.

And, frankly, I'm not spending $35.00 on a pair of 3D boots - that's what I can afford on MY boots, not some 3D glamor girl. And, $43.00 for a old west town, no matter how well modeled and textured, pays my electric bill and is more than my monthly cell phone bill.

 

[StudioMartillo]

Material transfer is definitely a must for me; I can't make my own 'cause I'm color blind, so I have to trust the software... I would love the Poser-Blender-DAZ bridge!

HOKEY SMOKES! Color blind? I can't believe that. Your renders are the GREATEST. How can a colorblind person create such beautiful art? Tell me it isn't true.

 

[RAMWolff]

Truly.

Oh and Chris, thank you so much for chiming in, you as well Paul. Nice to have folks that are truly "in the know" speak up.

 

[Jay Versluis]

I'm not sure I agree on the price discussion. There are other marketplaces that charge vastly more for something that - just judging by the renders - is comparable to what we can buy at DAZ for a fraction of the cost.

So Stonemason charges $60 for a huge set of Urban Sprawl 3, to be had for half that on sale days. A similar scene is $500 on Turbosquid. A female character comparable to one of our Victoria HDs costs you $400 for the unrigged version, or twice as much for the rigged version. A simple polo shirt is $50 there.