I wish we had..for Dawn

[Ken1171]

It's actually scary how many female artists keep depicting effeminated men as attractive, almost to the point where I can't really tell their gender. Ancient Chinese philosophy used to emphasize the importance of preserving a balance between both masculine and feminine sides of the personality, but I don't think this is what they meant. Perhaps there is a tip of Narcissism in this, like women project themselves over what they expect from men.

 

[Rae134]

I did quite a few life drawing classes with female subjects and one of the last ones had a male. I found it hard to draw the male figure after doing so many females (didn't help that he was slightly built)

 

[Zaarin]

True eclark. I'm a very straight woman but I don't find most male models attractive (there are a couple of exceptions. I think I must like my men manly, ah Wolverine ). And I don't think I've ever seen an ad with just males in it that was very dynamic like you get with females (that I can recall anyway).

Conversely, as a straight male I can't say I find the "anorexic with breast implants" look of most female models attractive either.

 

[RAMWolff]

Yes but in today's world, as it's becoming more and more diverse with transgender folks added to the mix now (regardless of your personal views on this newer classification of people, they exist and it is what it is) so expecting men to look like "men" and women to look "women" .... sorry the line is blurred from here on out. Plus when women work out allot their own testosterone levels increase and they begin to have a more masculine look to their bodies and allot of men that are either lazy, disabled or don't care what the look like get softer looking and yea, some look very feminine. The world is very diverse these days so I'm sure even the Asian philosophy's didn't see this coming from a mile away! Plus it's pretty funny to me that most Asian men that love to cross dress look better than some real life women! ... just sayin'!

 

[Gadget Girl]

It's actually scary how many female artists keep depicting effeminated men as attractive, almost to the point where I can't really tell their gender. Ancient Chinese philosophy used to emphasize the importance of preserving a balance between both masculine and feminine sides of the personality, but I don't think this is what they meant. Perhaps there is a tip of Narcissism in this, like women project themselves over what they expect from men.

Well, I think styles like anime play into this as well. I'm not saying cartoon men have to have the V shaped super man torso, but anime tends to go the opposite way. Actually it's a fascinating thing that has never really occurred to me before, but it seems that in explicit story telling with art (comic books, cartoons) you have lots of male figures, but in implicit storytelling (posters, still renders) you see far more women characters. Of course that may just be in my head, but if it isn't, there's probably some sort of cultural study to be done there.

 

[Ken1171]

@Gadget Girl The effemination of men indeed comes in part from the East, but I did my own research on the issue a few years ago by interviewing female artists from DeviantArt, and the results are mixed. I was practically sure that Anime influence was playing a major role, but in reality, more than half the interviewed women have never looked at it. It was easy to confirm that looking at their galleries - no Anime style or influence to be found. Nonetheless, the appreciation for effeminated men is present in their art in the form of female traces, long hair, and laced outfits. The poses are very specific to emphasize femininity, but with male attributes. That was one of the reasons I wanted to understand this better, even if to be able to better provide for commission jobs.

I am half Japanese, and have lived, studied and worked in Japan, where I have most of my relatives. Effeminated men are a common thing over there, where it has been culturally accepted for centuries. The vast majority of books and comics for women turn around the "bishounen" (effeminated, beautiful boys) theme, typically including same sex affairs. In other words, their ideal men want nothing to do with women. To my utter surprise, I have found the same line of interest in galleries from Westerner female artists. That's why I suspect that women are more comfortable projecting themselves into the image of the perfect man, to the point of making them also share the same interest in men, which also turns them unattainable. These women enjoy a story where they are mere observers of a male projection of themselves falling in love with another man.

Conversely, men's projection of the ideal woman is plain simple - it's a woman with exaggerated female features. No wonder human relationships are so complicated!

 

[RAMWolff]

It's not so much as a projection, in my view point, and not because I'm gay but because allot of women I know, mostly straight actually, like a more emotional, caring man that knows how to love them the way they envision. I read an article a couple of days ago talking about the affairs between Paul Newman and his many male suitors. One of them being Montgomery Clift (Marlon Brando was another).. It was revealed that Monty was very very rough. Paul would often leave with bruises and worse. I don't think most women would enjoy that much less most men. So you can understand why women want men that are just masculine enough but tender and caring partners. It's just our nature, our desire to wish for that "perfect" mate.

 

[Rae134]

There is a big difference between masculine and "rough" tho. I don't mind my men looking rough, but they can't act it towards a partner. I've actually found more "pretty boys" to be uncaring.

 

[RAMWolff]

Of course. There are some sweet kind rough looking teddy bears out there for sure.

 

[Zaarin]

Plus it's pretty funny to me that most Asian men that love to cross dress look better than some real life women! ... just sayin'!

I have to admit that while doing research for my Native American faces, there were a lot of cases where as I'd open up a photo I'd think, "What a beautiful woman!"...only to discover it was not a woman.

Conversely, men's projection of the ideal woman is plain simple - it's a woman with exaggerated female features. No wonder human relationships are so complicated!

To be honest, as a man I've never understood that particular view of female beauty, but most of the girls I've thought attractive have gotten the response, "Really? Her?" But I tend to be a little more Classical when it comes to attractive bodies: small breasts, and a little overweight rather than under. That being said, my idea of attractive prioritizes personality over looks, and the face over the body. But my definition of attractive is pretty broad. For example, if asked about what celebrity I thought most beautiful, my first answer would be Terry Farrell (I'm very fond of fair skin, dark hair, light eyes), but my second would be half-Moroccan Jew half-Nigerian Sophie Okonedo (that smile, though--and those dimples! ). But Terry Farrell is now the same age as my mother, and though she looks quite young Sophie Okonedo is a bit old for me as well...

 

[Gadget Girl]

@Gadget Girl The effemination of men indeed comes in part from the East, but I did my own research on the issue a few years ago by interviewing female artists from DeviantArt, and the results are mixed. I was practically sure that Anime influence was playing a major role, but in reality, more than half the interviewed women have never looked at it. It was easy to confirm that looking at their galleries - no Anime style or influence to be found. Nonetheless, the appreciation for effeminated men is present in their art in the form of female traces, long hair, and laced outfits. The poses are very specific to emphasize femininity, but with male attributes. That was one of the reasons I wanted to understand this better, even if to be able to better provide for commission jobs.

That's fascinating. Like I said I was just going off of what I've seen with no research to back it up. In fact I've come up with about five other 'theories' and half formed ideas since reading your post. I'll have to keep pondering this mystery.

 

[Ken1171]

@RAMWolff and @Zaarin I've said projection in the sense that the object of desire is depicted as a woman in a men's body, seeking romance with another men. More or less like a man with the sensibilities of a woman, which translates into men who think like a woman, and seeks for men as a woman would. So much that same sex relationships prevail in such stories. Male characters are depicted behaving like a woman with slight male attributes for decoration purposes. The boys are beautiful from a female perspective, commonly sharing female features like delicate chin, long lashes, female hairstyles and laced clothing. Men can be caring and emotional on their own ways, based on the way men think - which is completely different from women, and perhaps that's where women's expectations conflict of interest begins. Men expectations are of a completely different nature.

A perfect example is the boyfriend/husband sitting miserably bored at a mall as he waits for the girlfriend/wife to shop for shoes and clothing. The vast majority of men will not share that passion, but the idealized pretty boy would be having fun with her at the women's clothing stores. He has to think like a woman, and in the same sense, fall in love with men as well. Therefore such idealized men is nothing more than one who thinks like a woman and shares their interests as requisites to be able to understand them. Those are not really men, but instead a projection of women's expectations. No wonder it has become cliché when men claim they don't understand women.

Conversely, men's expectations of a woman (in general) turns around the Barbie doll stereotype. As an artist, this has been the demanded image from the general public, and also the standard in advertisement. Anorexic young women with bowling ball breasts. Due to the severe health issues involved, international laws have been trying to protect women against the unhuman stereotype nowadays. Nonetheless, the media is trying to give people what they want, even when it seems an unrealistic expectation. I am not defending it, but instead showing that this is what the general public demands.

Another example are the blatantly photoshopped pinup photos from magazines. They are edited to save real women from butchering their bodies into impossible proportions. It's common to see interviews with the media people these days, where they claim photoshop is a common requirement in the media by now - to carve the female figure into impossible shapes.

The bottom line is that both men and women have unattainable expectations of one another. But they come true in my idealized 3D characters, who at least we all know live in a fantasy world. Nonetheless, I still remember Victoria 3 had the proportions of a Neanderthal, while Victoria 4 had the body of an idealized supermodel. Fortunately for us, Dawn sits pretty much in the middle.

 

[Lorraine]

Apropro of Dawn. One of the things I've read loud and clear in 'other' forums is she is perceived as unattractive. This, I presume, because out of the box she is neither a supermodel nor pinup. We know she can be either if that's what you want, but she can also be an ordinary girl/woman too. I like that very much.

 

[Seliah (Childe of Fyre)]

This goes for all the Hivewire figures, I want more fine detail morphs! Some specifics I find myself missing from Gen4: Cheekbone Height, Cheekbone Width, EyelidUpperInnerHeight, EyelidUpperOuterHeight, EyelidLowerInnerHeight, EyelidLowerOuterHeight, UpperLipDepth, LowerLipDepth, UpperLipCrease, LowerLipCrease, FaceDepth, FaceMidDepth, NoseTipHeight, NoseTipUp-Down (yes, they are different!), and individual eye/ear height/width/size/In-Out/slant morphs, for creating asymmetrical faces.

This, this, this, THIS. I have been saying THIS for a long time now! And, furthermore, we need those fine detail morphs to be SEPARATED. I need to be able to control the eye lid upper highs individually. I need to be able to control eye HEIGHT INDIVIDUALLY. No human face is perfectly symmetrical! I need to be able to control muscle tone on the legs SEPARATE from the REST of the body, and I need to be able to control shaping in general of arms separately from the rest of the body, and this goes for ALL the body and head morphs.

What we have right now is a good start, but we definitely need more morphs, much more fine detail morphs, and we need a LOT more CONTROL over INDIVIDUAL body parts WITH those morphs.

I want some skin textures for different races. No offense meant to anyone but seems that white skin is the default in the Poser Universe. There are other races, you know.

I second this, and in particular I find it hard to find the shades in between black and white. Finding the middling skin tones suitable for Native Americans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians, South Asians, etc. is much more difficult than finding skin tones for Europeans, East Asians, or Subsaharan Africans/African Americans. One thing that pleased me greatly about VW's Faces of Africa skin is that the "pale" skin is actually quite suitable for Native Americans or Indians.

I am working on it. The biggest barrier for us right now as texture artists is a complete and total, utter LACK of GOOD merchant resources to use. I used VW's AFRICAN resource in order to get Nataani's more bronze colored skin. I had to start with AFRICAN to get that.

Dawn doesn't even HAVE an African MR - ANYWHERE! And if she does, could someoene PLEASE pretty please point me to it so I can go snatch it up? Because there is no other way I am going to be able to get those middle skintones without at least an African MR. You can NOT go from Caucasian to African, or from Caucasian to middle eastern, middle asian, american indian. You end up with a flat looking map and a skin that looks like a three year old colored it with wax crayons. I need good - detailed - MR's for African skins at the very LEAST in order to be able to give Dawn anything even close to what Nataani's skin has.

And Luna? Luna has NOT ONE skin resource out there except for the one she came with. NOT ONE.

But yes. I am working on the ethnic skins for the figures... one at a time here. The Face of Africa skin in the store is very nice, though the morphs for it appear to be Poser-only. But that skin is NOT a resource. I would love, LOVE IT, if VW would do a skin MR for Dawn that is African like she did for Dusk.

THAT is what I absolutely NEED if anyone wants to ever see more than Caucasian skins from me for Dawn OR Luna. I am not good enough to build a skin completely from scratch with photos. Not yet. I need the skin resources to start off with or I can't do anything about skin texturing. And right now, we have exactly TWO skin MR's for Dusk - the default one he arrived with, and VW's African. And *ALL* of Dawn's MR's are Caucasian. And there is NOT ONE available for Luna.

If folks want me to continue doing ethnic skins and morphs, I need a good collection of morphs on ALL the figures, good CONTROL with those morphs for INDIVIDUAL parts of the body, and I NEED a good set of skin MR's for Dawn, Dusk, AND Luna.

So... some folks are working on the ethnics... but there are things we need as content creators to do this with, and some of those things are NOT available right now. My hands are tied on Dawn! I have tried repeatedly to get a skin somewhere in the neighborhood of even Nataani's slightly bronzed colors. It can NOT be done from Caucasian. I need either skin resources that are in those middle shades, or I need an African resource for Dawn that I can change.

The sooner we have darker skinned DETAILED resource skins for Dawn and Luna, the sooner folks will see more ethnics in the store.

Just my $10 worth. LOL

 

[Lorraine]

You go, girl! I gotcha back!

 

[Ken1171]

Why don't we make a formal list of morphs we can present to HW? I have been submitting mine directly to Chris by email, which may not be very productive, as things can get lost or mixed up that way. I would be much more productive if had a single place to add morph requests. I suggest such a list should be organized by body part. like head, torso, breasts, arms, legs, etc.

My list includes morphs I miss when making my characters, but different people may miss something else depending on their needs. Some of the missing morphs in Dawn are more universal, like:

* Legs thickness
* Arms thickness
* Mouth height
* Chin width
* Shoulders width (affects chest width)
* Breast height
* Breasts distance (from each other, maybe "diameter"?)
and so on...

Those are the essentials that are already in my list, along with more specific ones like more defined ab shapes for voluptuous characters with definition without being muscle bulky, and more defined hip bone protusions on the bottom front that extrend from the thighs.

Whenever people ask me for such features on commish jobs, I have to do some magnet surgery on Dawn.

 

[Lorraine]

That sounds like a good idea, Ken

 

[Ken1171]

This, this, this, THIS. I have been saying THIS for a long time now! And, furthermore, we need those fine detail morphs to be SEPARATED. I need to be able to control the eye lid upper highs individually. I need to be able to control eye HEIGHT INDIVIDUALLY. No human face is perfectly symmetrical! I need to be able to control muscle tone on the legs SEPARATE from the REST of the body, and I need to be able to control shaping in general of arms separately from the rest of the body, and this goes for ALL the body and head morphs. What we have right now is a good start, but we definitely need more morphs, much more fine detail morphs, and we need a LOT more CONTROL over INDIVIDUAL body parts WITH those morphs.

A lot of what you want for the face is available for Dawn at RDNA, sold by Nightsong. There is a collection of Dawn Expressions packages that allow you to pick only the ones you want, and there is also a bundle package as well. It gives you finer control over small details like eyelids and lips and brows. I bought the whole thing, since to me, there is no such thing as too many morphs. LOL

 

[Lorraine]

And it's still available too. I got as far as the checkout (can't afford to get it but ) I hope Nightsong brings them here.

 

[Seliah (Childe of Fyre)]

Why don't we make a formal list of morphs we can present to HW?

I have been working on one already, as well. I'll get it added tomorrow when I'm back at the pc. That's a good idea, yes. This is another one of those "I wish I knew how to" things. But a list might make it easier, yes.

A lot of what you want for the face is available for Dawn at RDNA, sold by Nightsong. There is a collection of Dawn Expressions packages that allow you to pick only the ones you want, and there is also a bundle package as well. It gives you finer control over small details like eyelids and lips and brows. I bought the whole thing, since to me, there is no such thing as too many morphs. LOL

I will look into it, definitely. I agree with your sentiment about the morphs.

I would be hesitant to build any market package that needed those morphs, though. If they don't survive the transition, then we have orphaned products in the store that require a product no longer available. I would feel safer using things like that in my products if they were available in the store here. Especially in this case, when we just don't know how long the item will be available on the market.

I am definitely off to look it over, though. Thanks for the heads up!