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Why doesn't Male clothign sell better?

Rae134

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Hey eclark, if you want to model but get stuck on the textures, don't let that stop you, there are people out there who like to texture (and if they are like me, can't model), just find someone who would like to collaborate with you :)

(I'm still waiting for your stable and if you want help with textures I'll be the first to put my hands up :D)
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Couldn't it be fixed with a jcm? I know that some vendors even create jcm's that add the correct drape to a garment when that joint is moved...

No, because a JCM is just another morph and it's not morphing that is the problem - the problem is that an arm legitimately bends UP and when it does, you lose the shape of that shoulder "pad" underneath the shoulder. A JCM doesn't make that problem go away.
 

Dakorillon (IMArts)

Dances with Bees
Contributing Artist
Hey eclark, if you want to model but get stuck on the textures, don't let that stop you, there are people out there who like to texture (and if they are like me, can't model), just find someone who would like to collaborate with you :)

(I'm still waiting for your stable and if you want help with textures I'll be the first to put my hands up :D)
Agreed on all accounts! I like to texture, I have several in the works. But, I don't model.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
Oh well...I thought you were talking about just the clothing being mishaped. I thought we had gotten rid of bowling ball shoulders with Dusk.

Oh, we did get rid of bowling ball shoulders with Dusk. But that's not what we're discussing here.

In a real suit, on a human, a jacket with shoulder pads will move differently than our models do. They would maintain a nice sharp shoulder. However, that's because in humans we do restrict the Arm Up movement when we're wearing clothing like that. With a 3D model, that's not attainable and still pass QA.
 

James R.

Busy Bee
The way weight mapping works, one joint bending in both directions, this would be impossible unless the Arm Up joint was very limited in some manner. Otherwise, that "shoulder pad" area will simply collapse on itself when the arm is bent in an up position.
Screen Shot 2017-10-23 at 6.32.25 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2017-10-23 at 6.34.23 PM.jpg


Even in these positions, the shoulder on this item stayed put ... until I raised the arm to almost vertical. If anything the left side of the coat should have moved outward in the pose where he looks like he's going to bust a John Travolta pose. But there's a morph for that which I didn't use.

FWIW, it's very difficult for one to raise one's arm straight vertical in a properly fitted suit jacket. :)
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
View attachment 31583 View attachment 31584


Even in these positions, the shoulder on this item stayed put ... until I raised the arm to almost vertical. If anything the left side of the coat should have moved outward in the pose where he looks like he's going to bust a John Travolta pose. But there's a morph for that which I didn't use.

FWIW, it's very difficult for one to raise one's arm straight vertical in a properly fitted suit jacket. :)

You're right it's very uncomfortable to raise one's arm like that. We tend to remove the jacket and then reach.
 

RAMWolff

Wolff Playing with Beez!
Contributing Artist
No, because a JCM is just another morph and it's not morphing that is the problem - the problem is that an arm legitimately bends UP and when it does, you lose the shape of that shoulder "pad" underneath the shoulder. A JCM doesn't make that problem go away.
To play devils advocate here.. most of the time when I was in a suit I NEVER had a reason to pull my arms all the way up. Tailored suits are not designed for that. A gentleman takes off his jacket to do things like reach up or down for things for fear of ripping the arms and back out. I have some very nicely tailored jackets and have done many a wedding party (remember, I'm a hairdresser) and any time I was working on the gals hair, jacket was off for all the need of fluidity of my arms while working.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
To play devils advocate here.. most of the time when I was in a suit I NEVER had a reason to pull my arms all the way up. Tailored suits are not designed for that. A gentleman takes off his jacket to do things like reach up or down for things for fear of ripping the arms and back out. I have some very nicely tailored jackets and have done many a wedding party (remember, I'm a hairdresser) and any time I was working on the gals hair, jacket was off for all the need of fluidity of my arms while working.

Exactly my point just above yours.
 

James R.

Busy Bee
Anyway, my main point in mentioning this suit is that none of the other suits I have for M4 fit, move, or bend like that. I've seen at least one very nice dynamic one that seems like it might work, but it isn't designed for Poser. The rest all have very round shoulders, like they're shirts, rather than suit jackets, and that's how they move.

So then men's suit jacket shoulders are not an easy thing to do... or everyone would be doing it. ;)

But the suit I posted comes darn close. And limited though it is...it did it back in 2005. :(
 

kobaltkween

Brilliant
Contributing Artist
I don't find that true at all. Frankly, my Dusk stuff sells as well as the Dawn stuff does.

But, it's really about the fact that so many users are male and they do mostly pinups.

I think the Hivewire Poser base uses male as well as female figures equally, though.
I don't _think_ that's a correct assumption. At least not to go by gallery posts. I see much more of Dawn (and even more of Harry and the cats). I'm sure that your balance has something to do with operating within the HiveWire figure customer base, but I don't think that's the only factor.

Every vendor I've heard talk about it besides you has said that the sales are just _much_ lower. And it makes sense to me, because images with guys get much less traffic than ones with women. That means advertisements and announcements for guys' stuff will get fewer views, and therefore fewer people will even find out about your product.

I'd say that there's tons of interesting things that both are and have happened in men's fashion, but you have to look beyond your average white guys. From my grandfather's time to today, African American men's fashion has been a source of personal expression and pride for all economic classes. From what I've seen here in Texas and back when I lived in NJ, I'd say that was also true in a lot of different Latino communities. And it's not just Japanese men who have interesting fashion, it's most of East Asia. Same goes for African male fashion (I've got some cool pins on Pinterest). Senegal's fashion is apparently getting hot, and what I've seen of examples has been gender balanced or more male. I haven't looked into it, but I won't be surprised if I start looking at Indian male fashion and finding some awesome designs. I already know from clothing research that Arabic and Middle Eastern men have some really nice and interesting fashion going on. So if anyone out there would like to make men's clothes, but finds the idea either limiting or uninspiring, I suggest you start looking into different communities for references.

IMHO, there's one huge issue behind the problem of content for men. Almost all of contemporary art is about the visual objectification of women. Sexualization, too, but they're not synonymous. A woman can still be a person and be sexual. But mostly women in art are symbols, and usually visual symbols rather than ones with complexity and depth. Even when a woman is supposed to have the role of hero, she tends to primarily represent a concept (youth, fragility, determination, rebirth, etc.) rather than a type of actor. This can make for really good art, but it means that we ignore all the details that don't make sense if they're real people. Like how they always have time to put on make-up even though they're in the middle of the woods or in a post-apocalyptic dystopia. While most male actors' aesthetics revolve around what they're doing, most female actors' aesthetics revolve around how they're supposed to make their viewers feel. And the typical viewer is generally assumed to be straight and male.

What customers say they want for men in their art tends to be both specific and detailed. They suddenly start talking about functional, real world considerations. Like how the zippers work or where the pockets should be or how collars should look. Where men in art tend to be actors with specific character traits, women in art tend to be symbols with a general aesthetic style. There was a time when a handsome (or beautiful) male form was used to represent sorrow, joy, youth, freedom, and other concepts as well as a female one, but that time has passed. Our visual vocabulary is limited almost entirely to young women with a specific look.

I think if you hit the niche audience right, brand yourself just right, and generally find the right path business-wise, you can do well with male products. But you have a lot more freedom and flexibility when making things for female characters. And it's a lot easier to make something that will please a wide range of artists.

Also, vendors are in the same community everyone else is. We're influenced by the same media. It's just as unlikely for us to use the male form fluently in our visual vocabulary as it is any other artist in the community.
 

Glitterati3D

Dances with Bees
I think one of the things that holds back male clothing sales is that so many of the pieces are limited to one specific scenario. I mean a cop uniform is a bit hard to kit bash into anything not looking like a cop uniform, and armor is armor, etc.

Female apparel in 3D is much more versatile, typically, and can be kit bashed/combined with other pieces to make a completely different outfit.

This is one of the reasons I mix sets in promos, or make shoes that will finish out 2 outfits - especially male clothing.
 

Willowisp

Adventurous
Well, as a customer that prefers male content, I guess I'll give my two cents.

There are two reasons I don't buy more male clothing. 1. There isn't much being produced, and 2. so much of what IS being produced is of very low quality. And by 'poor quality' I mean trousers without seams, pockets, linings or even zips (how do they even put them on??), and trouser-legs so shrink wrapped that no normal guy would be seen dead in it. In general they are just much less detailed and look like flat pieces of plastic.

I don't know why male clothing overall is of so much poorer quality than female clothing (there are a couple of vendors who are excellent exceptions tho), but sometimes I wonder if vendors simply don't bother making the effort because they know they'll get less sales. And when the product is of poor quality, it will sell less, thus a self-forfilling prophecy. Another point is that male clothing, in general, is more loose-fitting than female clothing, and loose-fitting clothing is, from what I hear, much more cumbersome to rig. So it is quite possible that male clothing is just that much more difficult to make, thus why fewer make it, and those who do, often don't get a very good result out of it.

Like I said, there are SOME very excellent exceptions to this, so it is certainly possible! But James makes a very good point, there haven't been ANY good suits on the market since the M3 one. Possibly because M4's balloon shoulders can't make any jacket look good regardless, but even the genesis iterations never had a good fitting suit.. ;)
 

eclark1894

Visionary
I'm wondering if the lack of men's clothing sales is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Street clothing for men is definitely limited, and granted we don't need 27 different jeans for Dusk. But then no one makes the clothing for Dusk that probably WILL sell, like cool super spy suits. or futuristic armor/ uniforms. or even common everyday uniforms like police, firemen, Army, etc.
 

eclark1894

Visionary
To be honest, I think I have noticed that male stuff in general just doesn't sell, and just doesn't get made as much. You not only see less clothing, but fewer character sets, and fewer poses and practically NO specifically male hair sets made at all.
 

James R.

Busy Bee
Here's a bit of perspective (from another site) on the disparity in numbers between male products and female products in our CG universe, when you sort this example store's products by figure...

This is all their items for both Poser and Studio.

Roughly 3:1 or thereabouts...?

Screen Shot 2017-10-25 at 3.39.32 PM.png
 

Satira Capriccio

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
We may not need 27 different jeans for Dusk, though we need some. But, we also need cords, dockers, jogger/sweat/active pants ... as well as all those different types of dressy pants.

We also need zoot suits :wink:

There there are the bazillion different types of shorts. As well as casual shirts, dress shirts, t-shirts, polo shirts, tank tops ... and so on.

Men may not have the vast variety of clothing that women have. But they really aren't limited to a few pairs of jeans and shirts.

I've always hated that I could pull together just about any type of outfit for my females, but put a man in the scene ... and um ... yeah. The poor guy just has nothing to wear that looks right with what she's wearing.

Edit: Changed time to type. Silly fingers.
 
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