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Runtime DNA merges with DAZ 3D

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
It's a wonderful piece of software... but they really need to do something about the UI in order for me to feel comfy in it ever again. And the material room makes my brain explode. Things like "Blinn" don't tell me SQUAT! No amount of following tutorials seems to help, either. I think my brain just does not like the material room or the UI and that's simply the way it is. *chuckles*

The material room, is ugly, strange and crazy, I agree. But since people have been sharing 3d history, Blinn and Phong aren't Posers fault. They are actually named for the computer scientists who created the shaders, and were the first to figure out to simulate light reflecting in a computer model. Which is not helpful if you're new to 3d, but it is one of those areas where Poser straddles between professional and hobbyists. You'll find the same shader names in Maya for instance.

I have so much trouble with the UI in Studio, that I'm lucky if I can even find a figure to load into the scene, much less play with materials there. So I don't know anything about how Daz handles it.

That being said, use of these may be starting to go away with Cycles and Superfly and other physics based render systems. I find myself often getting rid of the Phongs and Blinns to make my materials look better in Superfly.

But back to the horrors of Poser's material room. I'd just be happy if it would remember the last material I was looking at, instead of me having to reselect it every time I go back into the room.
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
Now, I just continue doing pose work mostly...here's Hivewire's Fluffy animated...my avatar :)

Oh! That's the millennium cat! Admittedly I never looked closely, I just assumed it was your cat, which is kind of silly now that I think of it. I remember coming across fluffy when I was trying to find more options for this kitty here:



Which reminds me. Although I can't always find time (or the right idea) to create images for challenges, I always liked at least looking at the challenge thread at RDNA. I did see that there is a forum for that here, and I saw the postage stamp challenge. Are there any plans for upcoming challenges?
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
Oh, I just want to snuggle him. Of course, when my cat's tail starts doing the thing he's doing in the bottom picture, it usually means snuggles are over. I now need to figure out a way to work a cat into my current project so I can justify buying the Fluffy Cat.
 

Seliah (Childe of Fyre)

Running with the wolves.
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
The material room, is ugly, strange and crazy, I agree. But since people have been sharing 3d history, Blinn and Phong aren't Posers fault. They are actually named for the computer scientists who created the shaders, and were the first to figure out to simulate light reflecting in a computer model. Which is not helpful if you're new to 3d, but it is one of those areas where Poser straddles between professional and hobbyists. You'll find the same shader names in Maya for instance.

That's actually very interesting to know. I just couldn't figure out how the name "Blinn" or "Phong" were supposed to tell us WHAT those properties DO! To me those labels were meaningless, LOL. So that's really an interesting bit of trivia. Thank you!

I have so much trouble with the UI in Studio, that I'm lucky if I can even find a figure to load into the scene, much less play with materials there. So I don't know anything about how Daz handles it.

I can totally understand that, because that's how I feel inside of P10. :) Daz's material properties are just much more intuitively named. Specular is self explanatory; diffuse is the base texture map. Bump is self explanatory; velvet, okay that one is a little less obvious, but think on it for a moment and one figures out that it's going to be some kind of velvet-like quality when applied to a material zone. And, unlike Phong and Blinn for me in Poser, if I do test renders with each of the properties, I can immediately see what type of effect they have on a material.

I think that's my biggest problem with Poser's material room (aside from it being clunky). It's the inability to really be able to SEE what a lot of the properties actually do for a material and how they interact with the lighting and such.

But back to the horrors of Poser's material room. I'd just be happy if it would remember the last material I was looking at, instead of me having to reselect it every time I go back into the room.

You know, I'd agree with you on that one, too! LOL
 

eclark1894

Visionary
Isn't there a Python script that you can use instead of Poser's native Material room?
also, I often hear complaints about aspects of Poser, like the Material room, but no one ever gets specific about what they find wrong. I wish someone would write all that stuff down.
 

Seliah (Childe of Fyre)

Running with the wolves.
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Isn't there a Python script that you can use instead of Poser's native Material room?

I don't know of any python script that would allow me to set up materials without the default material room. If you're talking about EZSkin, I haven't had much luck with that yet. But then I'm working with EZskin2 and Dawn/Dusk seem to be unsupported/Other figures, so it might be that reason, too, in my case.

also, I often hear complaints about aspects of Poser, like the Material room, but no one ever gets specific about what they find wrong. I wish someone would write all that stuff down.

1.) Inability to select multiple material zones at the same time.
2.) Related to #1, inability to affect multiple material zones at the same time when making changes.
3.) Material room does not "remember" what our last selected material was; defaults back to whatever zone is at the top of the list.
4.) When copy/pasting material settings from one mat zone to another, it leaves a bunch of disconnected nodes in it's place. I'd like to see an option to have it just remove these nodes with the paste operation, as the script button to remove them all is a fair bit laggy.
5.) Material properties are not exactly named in an intuitive fashion; very difficult to understand what some of the properties do by their names, and test renders with them don't really seem to help me identify, visually, what they actually DO for a material.
6.) The tendency of the palettes to fly this way or that and get "stuck" loading that way, even after you've moved them into proper position before going to the next material zone.
7.) I strongly dislike the way Poser's lighting works, too. I understand how to get Daz lights to work. I can not for the life of me get a single decent lighting rig out of Poser, and yes I have followed written tuts and video tuts and all sorts of things over the years. I have never been able to work with Poser's lighting system.

How's that for starters? :)

My main issues with Poser *ARE* in the Material room. Phu displayed earlier tonight that P11/PP11 the interface can actually, successfully be customized to "clean" the UI up as much as I need it to. This capability does not exist in P10 or Pro2010, as discussed earlier in the thread.

My other chief complaint, is that P10 seems utterly incapable of rendering the heavy scenes I build, while DS 4 doesn't even bat an eyelash. Likewise, the entire interface slows down to a crawl very quickly (2 to 3 human figures and that's all it takes), whereas I have had huge, massive environments FILLED with trees and 10+ figures with all their accessories in Studio and have NO lag or viewscreen slow-down at all.

I have 12GBs of RAM; that might not be a TON, but if it's enough for me to spit out Aftermath in one single pass, it ought to be enough to be able to put out a scene in Poser that has two human figures with their clothes and hair/accessories, and a background. Sadly, it's not, and Poser chokes on it every time, and I end up right back inside of DS to do my renders.

For me, those are the biggest issues I have with Poser. The material room is HORRIBLE for me, the UI in Poser10 and Pro2010 is just as bad no matter HOW I move/rearrange the elements, and the program in general seems to manage memory in a much less efficient manner than Studio.

So, those are my basic issues with using Poser, and the combination has pretty much made sure I stayed out of it except as a content creation tool.

Does that help explain it any? I think it's a very powerful program; it's just not, in the current form I own (P10/Pro2010) an interface that I can tolerate for more than short bursts at a time. What takes me 20 minutes to do inside of DS takes me an hour or more inside of Poser, minimum, to figure out how to accomplish, and I can never seem to match the quality I get out of DS.

While I recognize that part of this my lack of skill, I have followed I don't know HOW MANY tutorials on using Poser's material room and I still, STILL cannot make heads or tails of it, or get the kinds of results I want out of it.

Please understand - I am *NOT* bashing Poser. I'm not. It's just that for my own workflow, the above reasons are enough to make me not only hate being inside of it, but it makes it near impossible for me to accomplish anything, or put out anything even remotely resembling a halfway decent quality texture or render with it. I think it's a really good program, and there are aspects of it that it DOES do better than Studio and vice versa - but for me, personally, I'm just NOT comfortable inside of P10 or Pro2010 at all, and I feel like I'm pulling my teeth out of my head just to try and get anything done.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
Now I'll try elaborate.

I don't know of any python script that would allow me to set up materials without the default material room. If you're talking about EZSkin, I haven't had much luck with that yet. But then I'm working with EZskin2 and Dawn/Dusk seem to be unsupported/Other figures, so it might be that reason, too, in my case.
Advanced Material Manger 2. Still on RDNA. Was not updated fot P11 and I think will not be. Should work in P10. Multiedit, texture manager and a heap of more good things.

Unrelated - Netherworks scripts no more... I didn't think his sctipt store already closed.
 

Seliah (Childe of Fyre)

Running with the wolves.
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
Advanced Material Manger 2. Still on RDNA. Was not updated fot P11 and I think will not be. Should work in P10. Multiedit, texture manager and a heap of more good things.

Unrelated - Netherworks scripts no more... I didn't think his sctipt store already closed.

Ah, thanks. Yeah, I was not aware of that script at all. I'm looking at it now. Have wishlisted it for the moment... thanks, it's worth a try!
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
And finaly to @eclark1894 question.
Poser MatRoom vs Surfaces+ShaderMixer.
Daz did great thing decoupled inputs in shader from shader itself. It is THE reason why you can apply shader to a surface and still have all the maps and colors in its places. If such thing was in poser there would be no need for scripts like EzSkin. (How many different Iray skin shaders now in Daz store? 5? 10? All of it works with same maps. They share same incoming data.) There would be need only for cool shaders inside it :) And this is great for shaders developers.
Next is nodetrees. Both clumsy. As I said, there are better. But honestly, there are worse. Main issues with Poser is stability (jumping nodes) and low speed sometimes. And no scripting node! (It's my personal grievance.)
Some time ago I wrote long rant on RDNA about my woes with Poser, the gist was: too many just tapped and stalled potential. Clothroom, hairroom, bullet, matroom...
But I have such thing against DS too: why only 8bit output? Tonemapping that restarts render, WTF?
 

Gadget Girl

Extraordinary
Contributing Artist
There's two characters high on my priority to do list...more work with Fluffy, and the recently released Shetland Pony, kinda for the same reason...the hair and the cuddly factor :)

View attachment 4891

You pushed me over the edge. I've been meaning to get the hive wire horse for a while, and I do need him, although cute as the pony is, I'd feel guilty making him pull a cart, so I'll wait on getting that breed.

1.) Inability to select multiple material zones at the same time.
2.) Related to #1, inability to affect multiple material zones at the same time when making changes.
3.) Material room does not "remember" what our last selected material was; defaults back to whatever zone is at the top of the list.
4.) When copy/pasting material settings from one mat zone to another, it leaves a bunch of disconnected nodes in it's place. I'd like to see an option to have it just remove these nodes with the paste operation, as the script button to remove them all is a fair bit laggy.

Yes, the interface is horribly clunky, especially if you are working on something with lots of material zones. When I've written a couple of my own scripts to stream line some of this, but it's still not a great solution.

Daz did great thing decoupled inputs in shader from shader itself. It is THE reason why you can apply shader to a surface and still have all the maps and colors in its places.

Okay that is pretty cool thing in Daz.
 

Satira Capriccio

Renowned
CV-BEE
Contributing Artist
I didn't notice any difference in the PP11 UI than the PP 2014 UI. I don't think it's any different either from PP 2012, but of course, it's been a few years since I used 2012. I'll have to look again at Phu's screenshot and PP11 when I'm home tonight. But, unless I'm mistaken, he's only got a few windows displayed. I'm not sure what the window is below his camera. Could be an addon. (Netherworks Material Room addon has made setting up materials SOOO much easier for me, I can't believe how long it took me to get it. Being able to copy a material zone setup and paste it to a bunch of selected material zones is a lifesaver.)

I'm the opposite in that I absolutely hate minimizing/closing the windows I use the most and having to click them to open them. It's entirely too many extra steps for me. But, I sure do understand where you're coming from, and I can see where the ability to minimize UI windows would be helpful for people. I could see it being helpful too for me with a few of the windows I keep open, but don't need to use all the time. Of course, with shortcut keys, it's easy enough to close windows you're not using until you need them. I just don't seem to remember the shortcut keys :p

I also love the ability with Poser to float my doc window, which lets me size it independent of the rest of the UI windows, and that was a huge frustration for me with 4.0. Especially, as to work as I prefer, the DS 4.0 UI results in a workspace the size of a postage stamp.

I've gotten spoiled at work with two monitors, and rather miss that at home. Of course, I have the second monitor and the ability to use two monitors at home. It's just one of those things I'm not all that comfy in doing. Even though, it really only involves unplugging the second monitor from the unused computer and plugging it into my primary computer. I'm most definitely a procrastinator. It's a wonder I get as much done as I do! (Probably because housework is always at the end of the list and I never get there.)

The screenshot that Phu posted of P11 actually looks usable for me. Yes, I know he's customized it. But it looks like it's actually customizable enough to be comfortable. Can I afford P11? Oh, heck no! LOL. But it's nice to know that the interface has seen some serious improvements as far as customization and personalization, and if it ever drops to a low enough price that I can actually save up to get it, I will probably get it. PP11 does also have some other features that I would actually like to really dig into for content creation, but I simply can't manage the pricetag that it goes for. Too rich for my blood. :)


I am enjoying seeing everyone's early works. I'll have more time this evening (I think!) to look through the last few pages.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Netherworks Material Room addon has made setting up materials SOOO much easier for me, I can't believe how long it took me to get it. Being able to copy a material zone setup and paste it to a bunch of selected material zones is a lifesaver.
Sounds like a good addition to my Netherworks addons once he's established in another store. I always liked being able to adjust materials for more than one matzone at the same time with copy/paste in D S. I know Poser allows you to copy/paste, but you still have to select each matzone individually. I'm definitely going to be adding this one. Not sure why I haven't already. ~scratches head~
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
Copy/Paste and texture manager are exellent timesavers.
I didn't notice any difference in the PP11 UI than the PP 2014 UI. I don't think it's any different either from PP 2012, but of course, it's been a few years since I used 2012. I'll have to look again at Phu's screenshot and PP11 when I'm home tonight. But, unless I'm mistaken, he's only got a few windows displayed. I'm not sure what the window is below his camera. Could be an addon. (Netherworks Material Room addon has made setting up materials SOOO much easier for me, I can't believe how long it took me to get it. Being able to copy a material zone setup and paste it to a bunch of selected material zones is a lifesaver.)
I'm the opposite in that I absolutely hate minimizing/closing the windows I use the most and having to click them to open them.
Yes, I'm too. So all windows have customised shortcuts, like hierarchy Ctrl`, Library ` and so on. Below camera is Netherworks Camera Panel.
 

phdubrov

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
I use a lot of his scripts. Dial manager on the top in this screenshot, MATWriter and SceneToy will pop on left and right, others when needed.
 
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