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Off topic stuff moved from "Refining Our Direction at HiveWire 3D" thread

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
For goodness sake, Lisa - I have already told you that was NOT my opinion, but something that Chris told me on occasion. I was just passing the info to someone who was thinking the same as I did before Chris had clarified that for me. Not once, but you have called me a liar TWICE before you've decided to double-check with Chris, just to find out I was telling the truth.

You are mixing issues to your advantage, Ken. I never called you a liar. I said the way you represented things in that one example was not the entire truth for that situation. My recollection had more to it. I researched it and corrected my self where I was wrong. I gave you credit where you were right. At no time have I called you a liar or implied that you have lied.

I am personally offended by these remarks. You are NOT doing me any favors by harassing me in the forums like this. Are you trying to publicly demoralize me or something? This is ridiculous and it has to stop.

Considering the extensive email chain we have going right now I was quite surprised to see this post by you. I would hardly call speaking up on behalf of HiveWire harassing you, Ken. It is certainly not my intention to demoralize you and I am sorry of that's how you feel. What has to stop is the mixing of opinion with fact to make it appear that the opinions are also facts. That is what I have issue with. No one is doing HiveWire any favors with those tactics, not to mention the long and winding endless roads of second-guessing what has happened in the past and speculation about what might happen next.

I asked everyone to stop because it creates too much fuel for fires. Someone gets offended and then has to jump in and correct the record, then someone else jumps in and it all becomes a free-for-all. It's pointless. What is ridiculous is to keep going down these roads when we have repeatedly asked people to stop. I have limited time to create and _I_ am offended when I am forced to invest my time in situations like this that should not exist.

@Ken1171 Being dismissed and not taken seriously by someone who you'd think would know better... Now you know how I feel.

I'm not entirely sure how to take this post, but I do know it doesn't sit well with me. You are implying that I have dismissed Ken and am not taking him seriously and that I should know better? And also somehow implying that you have also been dismissed? by Ken? who should know better?

I happen to like Ken. While we have our differences, I appreciate the knowledge and perspective he brings to our community and to these forums. I have not read every single post he has made but the ones I do read I generally agree with, as well as learn from. He is and has been a passionate advocate for Dawn and for HiveWire. He has experience in many areas that I do not. He is patient when he explains things to me that I do not understand. He brings things to the discussion that I would not have otherwise considered. I take my and our (HW) relationship with Ken very seriously and in am in no way being dismissive of him. In an effort to keep this forum going in a positive direction I am simply asking that some care be taken with how things are communicated and when you are asked to stop, at least have the respect for the people who are running the place to just stop.

There are some good discussions in this thread. As much as one might think they have hidden them, there are also quite a few barbs and insults going around. Enough already.

I'd rather get on with creating and see what we can do together! Who is with me?
 

Semicharm

Eager
@LisaB I mean no disrespect Lisa. It wasn't fair to pull anyone else into my disagreement with Ken and I apologize. I tried to fairly point out what Ken said about morphs in Poser was factually incorrect and was repeatedly dismissed as if I didn't have a clue what I was talking about. The pictures I posted hopefully settle the matter.
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
@LisaB I mean no disrespect Lisa. It wasn't fair to pull anyone else into my disagreement with Ken and I apologize. I tried to fairly point out what Ken said about morphs in Poser was factually incorrect and was repeatedly dismissed as if I didn't have a clue what I was talking about. The pictures I posted hopefully settle the matter.

Fair enough. Thank you for your apology.

Gentle reminder - we each have our own personal experiences that lead us to conclusions based on that experience. Those are the things that are true for us, based on feedback via a trial and error process where 'when you do this, this happens'. While there are some absolutes that are true for everyone no matter what, there are several areas where the user experience and perspective is directly related to the result that person perceives as true.

One example of this is when I first started using a computer, I was just learning and had a narrow perspective. When going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 there was a learning curve. My trial and error had me forming patterns to get certain things done. For example, to get to My Computer I would click the start button, then click something else, then scroll, then click My Computer. My husband asked me why I was going through all of those steps when all I needed to do was go to my desktop, right click an icon and select My Computer. So many clicks saved in the process. I recall being resistant to doing it his way when I was so proud of learning how to do it on my own.

We each have our own perspective and experience in the same situations which lead us to various versions of 'truth'. Others having different experiences does not invalidate our own. We could each be more open to the experience of others and allow that there's more than one way to get to My Computer.

Enjoy creating today.
 

Hornet3d

Wise
Fair enough. Thank you for your apology.

Gentle reminder - we each have our own personal experiences that lead us to conclusions based on that experience. Those are the things that are true for us, based on feedback via a trial and error process where 'when you do this, this happens'. While there are some absolutes that are true for everyone no matter what, there are several areas where the user experience and perspective is directly related to the result that person perceives as true.

One example of this is when I first started using a computer, I was just learning and had a narrow perspective. When going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 there was a learning curve. My trial and error had me forming patterns to get certain things done. For example, to get to My Computer I would click the start button, then click something else, then scroll, then click My Computer. My husband asked me why I was going through all of those steps when all I needed to do was go to my desktop, right click an icon and select My Computer. So many clicks saved in the process. I recall being resistant to doing it his way when I was so proud of learning how to do it on my own.

We each have our own perspective and experience in the same situations which lead us to various versions of 'truth'. Others having different experiences does not invalidate our own. We could each be more open to the experience of others and allow that there's more than one way to get to My Computer.

Enjoy creating today.


I came across this on a regular basis when I was teaching, I would always show them the fastest or most efficient way of ding things but left it to them to decide which method they preferred to use. From my point of view if they were able to get the result, how they got there was not really that important.
 

KageRyu

Lost Mad Soul
Contributing Artist
@LisaB To this day my Win 7 machines are set to look as much like Win 85 as possible (same of my XP machines) and I navigate most programs through the start menu not the desktop. On of the first things I do when rebooting or booting up is to open Windows Explorer to a Details view for file work to work in as close to an environment of programs such as the old DOS Norton Commander or the Commodore Amiga's SID menus for file maintenance and work. I still use an old program called ThumbsPlus for organizing images mostly. Old Habbits...

@carmen indorato and @Hornet3d Yes, good detailed sets, props, vehicles, and animals are a must, and those have dwindled a lot in recent years. I find myself trying to kitbash large environments lately from mixed quality content - sometimes it works, sometimes not. I see a lot of beautiful sets from artists who once were avid Poser supporters that are now DS only products, not even OBJs that can be imported and I find it frustrating. Some of the newer vendors for Poser content I find the content, well, lacking for a variety of reasons (detail, mesh structure, etc). Though so many have also passed on or retired as well. I myself have wanted to get back into modeling, but have been overwhelmed with real life concerns these past few years. The only modeling I did was back in the early 90's and the techniques were vastly different then as to now, and I have had difficulty wrapping my head around the newer techniques (teaching an old dog and all that).
 

LisaB

HW3D Vice President & Queen Bee
Staff member
Co-Founder
@Hornet3d I would be the same way. I tend to share my shortcuts that I earned through a lot of painful trial and error, but I forget that the way I found the shortcuts in the first place was to try and fail, try and fail until I figured out on my own the most efficient way get the result. I finally realized that in some cases, the shortcut, avoiding all of the pain or learning, is not a gift that can be truly be given since so much of knowledge (what is retained) is based in the 'trial and fail' or 'trial and error' experience.

@KageRyu I loved Thumbs Plus! I only stopped using it when I started using Google's Picasa. Picasa isn't supported anymore but stubborn me ... I still use it to organize photos and texture resources because I can assign keywords and seearch my own database. It also has face recognition to help me organize family photos and a collage feature that I use for newsletters for the Hive. I haven't had time to search for a suitable replacement so I cross my fingers and hope it works every time I start it. It's a resource hog though ... best of time, worst of times.

In general, it's funny/ironic how the changes life forces on us sometimes can really make us feel like we are lost and spinning out of control. I find that creative expression helps with finding balance and groundedness in what can feel like an insane world. Learning something new also helps. It may feel overwhelming while I am in the midst of it, but I always come out the other side with more than I went in with. Keeps my brain sharp to learn new things, too. ;)
 

pommerlis

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
One example of this is when I first started using a computer, I was just learning and had a narrow perspective. When going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 there was a learning curve. My trial and error had me forming patterns to get certain things done. For example, to get to My Computer I would click the start button, then click something else, then scroll, then click My Computer. My husband asked me why I was going through all of those steps when all I needed to do was go to my desktop, right click an icon and select My Computer. So many clicks saved in the process. I recall being resistant to doing it his way when I was so proud of learning how to do it on my own.

That reminded me so much of my stepbrother. Back in the day, in the past century, I had an MSN-group. Yesss, looooong ago that was me lass.
Anyhew, I wanted to create this beautifull frontpage that needed a table that would fill the screen without people having to scroll sideways. So I asked him since he was great with computers and all he wrote in an email was: <table width= "100%"></table> and a "read the attachement and good luck sis".
He added a HTML page. It took me a while to figure it out but I had loads of fun doing it, even though I cursed at times. He could have come and create the page for me while explaining in expensive words what he was doing but he knew me well enough.
I love it to let my brain work and figure things out on my own.
 

DanaTA

Distinguished
That reminded me so much of my stepbrother. Back in the day, in the past century, I had an MSN-group. Yesss, looooong ago that was me lass.
Anyhew, I wanted to create this beautifull frontpage that needed a table that would fill the screen without people having to scroll sideways. So I asked him since he was great with computers and all he wrote in an email was: <table width= "100%"></table> and a "read the attachement and good luck sis".
He added a HTML page. It took me a while to figure it out but I had loads of fun doing it, even though I cursed at times. He could have come and create the page for me while explaining in expensive words what he was doing but he knew me well enough.
I love it to let my brain work and figure things out on my own.

But sometimes you lose years off your life, struggling with something that looks like it should work, but doesn't. Only to find out you omitted something really simple, that you already knew! But this is also how I learned the stuff to create my website. No canned software, a couple of controls from DevXpress (a couple of which I've abandoned for pure CSS). Even the cart, wishlist, and PayPal checkout process I've done mostly on my own, with some help from tutorials and examples. And a private forum for vendors and testers! It all took a while, but I got it. Of course, nothing is ever done done. There are features I want to add, but they aren't crucial.

Dana
 

pommerlis

Noteworthy
Contributing Artist
Only to find out you omitted something really simple, that you already knew!

Yessss,....LOL
I just recently discovered that while creating my blog on blogger. I use to have one but totally forgot how to adjust a theme there LOL
 

DanaTA

Distinguished
I wish there was some kind of control I could insert into one of my pages that would cause lots of people to come to my site and buy things! :D :rolleyes:
Or did I miss that one somewhere?

Dana
 

Semicharm

Eager
@LisaB Yeah, I remember the bad old days of Win3.1 And with touch screen devices, we've gone back to icon windows again. The irony is lost on kids these days. LOL

@KageRyu Win10 is OK, though Its insistence on changing Explorer back to the useless thumbnail view every time they do a version update is really annoying. I agree, the "details" view is so much more useful for everyday work and other apps do a much better job of managing images anyway. It's still possible to set the default view to "details", but the view options window is even more buried than previous versions. :/

As for DS props, the DSON importer can get many of those into Poser, but you'll get very basic shaders. And managing lots of mat zones is not Poser's strong suit. Being able to select multiple mats, even across multiple items, is something I really miss from DS. I really need to finish that mat utility I started... Just haven't had the time lately.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
@Ken1171 Being dismissed and not taken seriously by someone who you'd think would know better... Now you know how I feel.

Hey Semicharm, I am really sorry I made you feel dismissed. I really am. What I was saying was true to the best of my knowledge, and like you said, the images you have showed me have definitely proven me wrong. I was definitely not trying to dismiss you - and what you have showed me in the end left me speechless. Seeing is believing, right? I stand corrected. I have been doing this for a while and I guess I've got overconfident. This doesn't make everything I said wrong, but the morphs part definitely was, and I apologize for not believing until you've showed me. I have no idea how the face morph still worked after you have changed the vertex count. That usually changes the vertex order, which would typically end in a spiked out shape. I assume this would involve editing the morph target deltas to put them back in the right order after the change. I wouldn't know where to start. That's some respectful skills! ^____^
 

Semicharm

Eager
@Ken1171 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I've had to actually rebuild morphs after artists mixed up the vertex order and the such. I too I've been told back in the day that those where unfixable, but being a crazy tinker with an engineering degree I eventually managed to work out how those parts of Poser work, and how to get around those issues. That was in the bad old days of Vicki and Posette, when vertexes were almost reasonably countable, so such things were easier to work out. I've since seen such updates done correctly, as with the Roxie update, so I'd assumed that knowledge of these things was at least somewhat know by now. I was apparently wrong.

Well, as for how it can be done...you're almost there. The cleanest way is to not change the vertex order at all, placing all new vertexes at the end of the "v" list in the OBJ file. That's basically what SM did when they added lashes to Roxie. Morphs that didn't affect the lashes only needed to have "numbDeltas" updated. The morph data doesn't need to be touched at all. That's basically what I did in my example with Dawn.

There are other ways to do it, but those require updating the vertex indexes of the faces. Now, in practice...that can be easier said than done. I know how it technically works and can breakdown what I know, but how much help that is to modelers and morph sculptors is another matter. Modding a model in another app and getting it back into Poser can be like trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together. If the vertexes can be put back into the right order, morphs that should otherwise be unaffected would still work.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
If the vertexes can be put back into the right order, morphs that should otherwise be unaffected would still work.

One incredibly important thing that comes to mind is when we export figure OBJs from Poser with the weld vertices option - the welding changes the vertex order. Even if the number of verts is the same as the respective figure, their scrambled order makes any exports from Poser unusable. If it would be possible to restore them them to the right order, this could be a break-through in Poser workflow. I can't imagine how that could be done, though. But if possible, this would resolve one of Poser's most crucial issues - incompatibility with other programs - namely DAZ Studio and CC3, I would assume this is impossible since once Poser loads and splits the model geometry, it no longer knows what the original order was. After the groups are split, the geometry is no longer the same. Exporting with weld makes the verts count back to how it was before, but the order... is lost forever?
 

Semicharm

Eager
One incredibly important thing that comes to mind is when we export figure OBJs from Poser with the weld vertices option - the welding changes the vertex order. Even if the number of verts is the same as the respective figure, their scrambled order makes any exports from Poser unusable. If it would be possible to restore them them to the right order, this could be a break-through in Poser workflow. I can't imagine how that could be done, though. But if possible, this would resolve one of Poser's most crucial issues - incompatibility with other programs - namely DAZ Studio and CC3, I would assume this is impossible since once Poser loads and splits the model geometry, it no longer knows what the original order was. After the groups are split, the geometry is no longer the same. Exporting with weld makes the verts count back to how it was before, but the order... is lost forever?
Yes, exports from Poser are fundamentally broken because Poser's figure format is fundamentally broken. I've been told that many morph artists who don't create them in Poser import the original obj into their modeler of choice. Of course, that can still be problematic if the original mesh wasn't solid (some, such as SM figures, had breaks) and the vertex order can still get messed up when transferred back to Poser.

Now, what I was talking about before was going the next step to actually modifying the mesh beyond just moving vertexes around. That can be done, even without breaking morphs, but again only when starting from the original obj. Going into Poser is still a one-way trip. What goes in isn't reliably coming back out in any other format.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
Going into Poser is still a one-way trip. What goes in isn't reliably coming back out in any other format.

That's about it in a nutshell. The eternal Poser non-unimesh drama. I was passing this to the SMS dev team when I was in their beta-testing program. They are aware of it, but "fixing" this would require rewriting the Poser core from scratch, and would potentially break everything else. At the time, [I assume] SMS would not authorize this kind of radical change, since they thought all we wanted were new shiny features. Larry Weinberg told me they could do it in Poser 12, but if only the measure had enough support to push it forwards. In other words, it's not enough that I alone would want it. That is, if the community is Ok with broken exports, they would be fine with it, too.

Just to clarify this before people jump to conclusions, rewriting the Poser core means making it work with meshes in 1-piece, instead of splitting into separate parts after figures are loaded. This would NOT affect backwards compatibility, or any parts of the Poser files. However, products that used OBJs created with the current non-unimesh Poser would probably not work with the new version. Maybe they could make it work with both unimesh and non-unimesh OBJs, but the goal would be to always export the meshes WITHOUT altering them. Like Semicharm said, the way it is now, once a figure is loaded into Poser, we can NEVER recover the original geometry. That is the part that needs to change, and for that to happen, it will probably need support from the community.
 

kobaltkween

Brilliant
Contributing Artist
Just popping back to check on this before posting some Blender info. I'm not sure where to share it, but the new Blender out, 2.81, has the Intel denoiser as a filter in the compositor. So it can work on a random image, as long as its noise is a predictable 3d renderer's noise. Which means that Poser Superfly users can use Blender as their free denoiser.

Anyway, just saying I agree with Semicharm about the "unimesh" deal, and I apologize for misunderstanding you. I've literally never seen that term used that way in the larger 3D world, so I didn't catch it. It's simply impossible for me to make even the most basic JCM with Blender's powerful sculpting tools, and that's a problem. My choices are pay for _and_ master Zbrush or use Poser's Morph Tool, which has no ability to just grab stuff and drag it where I want. Meanwhile, DS has managed to come up with an export solution for this. There's tons of tutorials on it. So if you're one of the very, very many independent 3D artists using Blender to make content, it's not only easier to make content for DS, it's practically necessary when it comes to conforming clothes. Which are kind of the bread and butter of the community.

Poser's creators _could_ take a hint from DS in this area, and just focus on the export and import problem. From a user perspective, it's not a problem that Poser splits its meshes. As a content creator, my problem is that I can't make clothing JCM in Blender. DS developers solved that problem at the export and import level, so it's definitely possible.

I do want to say that I follow several environment vendors, and there's still a lot of stuff coming out for Poser. Definitely look around, because there's vendors out there who would love the support. Especially because general scenery is less of a thing than general female characters and clothing. Almost anyone can use a random fantasy gown, but customers tend to be more specific about where they show off such a gown.
 

Ken1171

Esteemed
Contributing Artist
Which means that Poser Superfly users can use Blender as their free denoiser.

I have posted on the Dawn renders thread about nVidia's powerful and FREE OptiX 6.5 GPU accelerated denoiser, where the results I've got were quite superior to what I could get from Blender denoiser. It's a self-contained program, so people can use it without having to install anything else. There is also a version that can be used with Blender as a 3rd party plugin. The only downside is that the standalone version has no interface, so it has to be ran from a command line. I was thinking on creating an interface for it. For the time being, I made a batch file where we can just drag and drop images over it, so we don't have to use the command line. :)

My choices are pay for _and_ master Zbrush or use Poser's Morph Tool, which has no ability to just grab stuff and drag it where I want.

For a long time I have also thought the Morphing Tool couldn't grab and move geometry around, but it actually can. From the "pull" or "push" brushes, select the "Screen" mode, and now you can move verts anywhere in relation to the camera. This is what I have used to create all of my Body Type series sculpts, without ever leaving Poser. I also use this to create all the necessary JCMs for pose correction. When we do things this way in Poser, and then save the results to the library (or export as morph injection), it preserves the geometry (remains unimesh), which is what we want.

I have zBrush, but I find myself using it very seldom nowadays, because the Morphing Tool allows me to keep posing the figure as I sculpt it, which is not possible with zBrush. Another reason I avoid zBrush for body sculpting from Poser is because I cannot export morph targets from either zBrush or Poser. If I do, the geometry will be split, and cannot be used in DS. If I do everything in Poser, like described above, I can save the results to the library or export morph injections without messing up with broken OBJs. If you want the morph in DS, just save to CR2 and load it back in DS. We can ignore all the weight maps error messages, since we only want the shape. Once this is done, export to OBJ from DS, and now we have a morph target that works in both programs (assuming you export in Poser scale).

In my personal experience, I have been having great results with this workflow. :)

Poser's creators _could_ take a hint from DS in this area, and just focus on the export and import problem.

Like Semicharm said, as soon as a figure is loaded into Poser, the mesh integrity is lost forever. This happens whether we export it or not, so the problem is not just with import/exports. I am reminded of this every time I create a JCM in Poser with the Morphing Tool, where we have to use the pre-pend/post-pend workaround before and after making any changes, or changing a pose. If we forget, the morph may be compromised and we have to start over. We wouldn't have to do this if the mesh was preserved as unimesh after loaded. The Morphing Tool expects meshes to be unimesh, but Poser doesn't support that internally, and that's why the workaround was introduced. Without that, the Morphing Tool would have a good chance of exploding your model when making JCMs. Happened to me a few times, and can keep us from finishing a product. The workaround works, but it's still a nuisance.

So you're absolutely right - the Poser creators have to take a hint from this. LadyLittleFox wrote an article about this, even claiming it was a major reason why she gave up on Poser, because she couldn't finish her products with P10 (the workaround was only introduced in P11 SR-5). This is a serious issue that does affect content creators. Unfortunately, SMS told me this would require rewriting the Poser core from scratch, so it's not something that could be "fixed", but instead something that would have to be "changed" deep inside the way Poser works.

In a way, for those who are old enough to know, Poser was never designed to do the things it does nowadays. It kept growing and expanding over time, attempting to accomplish more in every version. But the core functionality was designed to split the geometry in every part of the process, and that has never changed. So it's not that Poser is "broken", but instead that it was designed to behave like this because, by that time, it sounded like a good idea. DS wouldn't exist until a decade later, so by then we didn't need "unimesh" support to make products work in both programs. As a matter of fact, all of Autodesk's mainstream 3D programs do not support unimesh to this day. If we create a figure grouping in, say, 3DSMAX or Maya, it will split the model just like Poser does. There are actually very FEW programs that support unimesh, namely Blender3D, Modo, and [maybe] Lightwave.

I could only hope Rendo will address this in Poser 12, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I doubt they would try something this deep at this point. I don't know who's in the dev team now, but it would require changing the Poser internals quite significantly, according to what Larry Weinberg told me back in the SMS days, just before they would start working on Poser 12. Nonetheless, it doesn't hurt to be hopeful. :)

As a content creator, my problem is that I can't make clothing JCM in Blender. DS developers solved that problem at the export and import level, so it's definitely possible.

If we start from Poser, we can only create JCMs in programs that support unimesh, which includes Blender and Modo. However, the problem is that we CANNOT export any rigged figures from Poser, because the geometry was broken the moment it was loaded into Poser. Therefore we are left with either GoZ or the Morphing Tool. Even if we use GoZ, the geometry will still be split and broken, so even if we export morphs from zBrush to OBJ, it will also be broken (vertex count won't match the original). Poser can still handle this (with a few exceptions), but none of these OBJs will work in DS.

This is why I prefer the Morphing Tool to create my JCMs - it doesn't require any OBJ exporting/importing, and hence avoids the non-unimesh issue. The pre/post-pending workaround is still a nuisance, but it works. The GoZ workflow also works, but we can't change poses in zBrush to test the JCM for different bending angles. To me that's the big plus of using the Morphing Tool to create JCMs. Or perhaps, especially when creating JCMs, because we have to test and make adjustments at different poses.

On the DS side, they didn't fix the non-unimesh problem just at import/export level. DS never splits the geometry. It is always unimesh at all levels, just like Modo and Blender do. If Rendo would resolve this in Poser, that's how it would have to be. It wouldn't be a "fix", but instead a "change" in how it works internally. When the Morphing Tool was first introduced, it was meant to work with unimesh geometry, and that's why the workaround was introduced in P11, because it couldn't handle JCMs in P10. If we pose the figure and try to sculpt on it with the Morphing Tool without changing the transforms order first, the vertexes at the borders between groups will spike out. Even if we first convert the model to Unimesh Skinning, it will still spike out when we return to normal skinning mode. That's how bad it is, so we have to use the workaround until Poser stops splitting the groups.

SMS claimed I was the first one to ever report this issue. I am pretty sure other content creators knew about it, but if they don't report it, there is little chance it will ever be addressed.
 

Miss B

Drawing Life 1 Pixel at a Time
CV-BEE
Just popping back to check on this before posting some Blender info. I'm not sure where to share it, but the new Blender out, 2.81, has the Intel denoiser as a filter in the compositor. So it can work on a random image, as long as its noise is a predictable 3d renderer's noise. Which means that Poser Superfly users can use Blender as their free denoiser.
You can always post that sort of thing in our Blender forum. Oh wait, you did! ;)
 

Alisa

RETIRED HW3D QAV Director (QAV Queen Bee)
Staff member
QAV-BEE
Note - I just moved this stuff from the Refining our Direction thread, which had several pages of off topic stuff :). Thanks!
 
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