-
Welcome to the Community Forums at HiveWire 3D! Please note that the user name you choose for our forum will be displayed to the public. Our store was closed as January 4, 2021. You can find HiveWire 3D and Lisa's Botanicals products, as well as many of our Contributing Artists, at Renderosity. This thread lists where many are now selling their products. Renderosity is generously putting products which were purchased at HiveWire 3D and are now sold at their store into customer accounts by gifting them. This is not an overnight process so please be patient, if you have already emailed them about this. If you have NOT emailed them, please see the 2nd post in this thread for instructions on what you need to do
Rigging for G3F and G8F (general weights)
- Thread starter Ken1171
- Start date
Oh yes, DAZ also sells a couple of models at the Reallusion store, and even though they were decimated to reduce poly count, they are still too heavy for using real-time. That's why I made that dance animation in iClone using a 20K polys decimated Dawn, turning her into a real-time game model. It can be done, but it has limits.
Hehe legacy rigging was SO much easier than weight painting, and rigging could be faithfully transferred from one clothing to another with very little work. It was easier, but it had serious limitations. Weight painting was the natural next step. It's the SAME thing, where the only difference is that now we have direct access to the weight maps and can edit it with a brush. But even legacy rigging already had THREE maps per joint, just like TriAx. It's the same thing, but with a different interface.
However, the very first Poser models had only 1 single map per joint over 20+ years ago. Genesis 3 and 8 went back to, literally, Poser's pre-historic times. It has to heavily depend on correction morphs (JCMs) to pose properly, and consider DS doesn't have tools do edit them when things go wrong. Coming from that, it's hard for me to look at this in a positive way.
Hehe legacy rigging was SO much easier than weight painting, and rigging could be faithfully transferred from one clothing to another with very little work. It was easier, but it had serious limitations. Weight painting was the natural next step. It's the SAME thing, where the only difference is that now we have direct access to the weight maps and can edit it with a brush. But even legacy rigging already had THREE maps per joint, just like TriAx. It's the same thing, but with a different interface.
However, the very first Poser models had only 1 single map per joint over 20+ years ago. Genesis 3 and 8 went back to, literally, Poser's pre-historic times. It has to heavily depend on correction morphs (JCMs) to pose properly, and consider DS doesn't have tools do edit them when things go wrong. Coming from that, it's hard for me to look at this in a positive way.
Hey, that's the year when DAZ distributed their Mil3 figures for FREE for the first time. That kicked all other figures out of business overnight, and nothing on my store would sell anymore (can't compete with free), which got me out of business too. This is how all the wide variety of figures we once had disappeared all at once, leaving only DAZ figures around since then. Dan Farr thought this move would widen the DAZ customer base, but what it caused was much deeper than just that. That was a crucial year for the Poser/DS world. Took me 2 years to come back as a vendor, by the time when V4 came out with zero JCMs.
Yeah, I was using AnimeDoll, which was the figure that got me into Poser. It was way more fun to have so many different figures to play with. Each had their own CAs supporting them. I only came to really appreciate diversity after we lost all of it back in 2005. That's why that date is burned in my memory. You probably only got a few months before it was all wiped off the stores, replaced by free DAZ figures.
From my understanding about weight maps is the map you do not want affected by any new weight maps being painted is to LOCK that maps you don't want disappearing or altered. Another reason I hate weight mapping is it's so time consuming going back and forth between the bones and locking and unlocking maps.
The issue with Genesis 3 and later is that they gave 2 joints per group on the thighs. Although there are 2 bones there, apparently we only have ONE single map to handle all 3 axes, so the extra Twist bone is useless. Since Genesis 3 and later figures have only a single map per joint, locking is no longer an option. You will be editing the weights for all 3 directions, bending, side-side, and twisting, all in the SAME map. That is, you fix the bend map, and it breaks the side-side and twist, because it's the same map. That's what TriAx was invented to resolve, but now we are back to how it was 20 years ago.
What happened here was that I created a new map on the Thigh Twist bone, and you actually can do that, but the map still becomes tied up to the Thigh Bend map, even if they are separate maps driven by different bones. It couldn't be more confusing than this, but to add to the mess, DS now automatically adds figure JCMs to the outfit, even if it has none. This causes the shapes to change as the legs are posed, which can fool you to think it's because of your weight map, when it's not.
To make it even more fun, DS cannot disable these automatic JCMs. It looks like another tool is needed to stop the JCMs to interfering with your weight maps, but I don't know what it is yet. Conversely, single map per joint has to rely heavily on JCMs to pose properly, but DS has no tools to edit them. TriAx was way easier than this, but we all want to please the gaming companies, by making rigging more compatible with their game engines. Isn't that what we all want?
What happened here was that I created a new map on the Thigh Twist bone, and you actually can do that, but the map still becomes tied up to the Thigh Bend map, even if they are separate maps driven by different bones. It couldn't be more confusing than this, but to add to the mess, DS now automatically adds figure JCMs to the outfit, even if it has none. This causes the shapes to change as the legs are posed, which can fool you to think it's because of your weight map, when it's not.
To make it even more fun, DS cannot disable these automatic JCMs. It looks like another tool is needed to stop the JCMs to interfering with your weight maps, but I don't know what it is yet. Conversely, single map per joint has to rely heavily on JCMs to pose properly, but DS has no tools to edit them. TriAx was way easier than this, but we all want to please the gaming companies, by making rigging more compatible with their game engines. Isn't that what we all want?
Ok, I have started the tutorial, and Esha clarifies that DAZ Studio comes incomplete, and that we have to become DAZ vendors to receive the missing part. This missing part activates a part on the DS interface that allows us to enable/disable JCMs so they don't interfere with weight map editing. She presents a workaround that involves loading 2 figures, and then switching between them to overcome the limitation.
The bottom line is that if you are a content creator, but you are not a DAZ vendor, you are not entitled for the complete version of DAZ Studio. This in part explains why my several attempts to rig a skirt for Genesis 3 have failed so far. And consider the unsuspecting CA will have to PAY to find that out, and still have to use workarounds to deal with it.
So just hiding the info for content creation with DS is no longer enough for DAZ. Now they also undermine DS to make you fail, unless you become a DAZ vendor. Nice.
The bottom line is that if you are a content creator, but you are not a DAZ vendor, you are not entitled for the complete version of DAZ Studio. This in part explains why my several attempts to rig a skirt for Genesis 3 have failed so far. And consider the unsuspecting CA will have to PAY to find that out, and still have to use workarounds to deal with it.
So just hiding the info for content creation with DS is no longer enough for DAZ. Now they also undermine DS to make you fail, unless you become a DAZ vendor. Nice.
Yea, I remember reading Esha's tutorial about that with two figures and all that a little while back. I still think, more for my needs and understanding, General is the way to go and add in fix morphs as needed. TriAx is so convoluted to me but everyone's brain is wired differently in this respect.
All rigging was general maps before Poser. Introducing 3 maps per joint was the logical solution for easier rigging, where each map is independent and only handles one joint direction. This means that once you are done with "bend", you can go work on Side-Side and Twist without affecting what you have already done. With general weights, you will have to edit each bending direction several times, until one stops destroying what you did for the other. It's a step back to how things were before, like over 20 years ago. But what disappoints me more is that DAZ is doing this to please the game industry, which has nothing to do with this market. They decided to sacrifice this market to please another one they don't have yet, which means we are no longer a priority to them.
Glitterati3D
Dances with Bees
Whew, I think I'm glad I don't do DS rigging...............yuck!
And, all those "fix morphs" were how V4s issues were addressed and the JCMs got completely and utterly out of control very fast.
Exactly - there were so many complaints concerning Mil3 figures having too many JCMs, so DAZ removed them all in Mil4 figures. Now they are back in full force in G3 and G8, and if that wasn't enough, they removed TriAx and went back to all the way to old-school single map per joint. They couldn't care less for the CAs. I was really mad after wasting 3 days trying to rig a skirt, just to find out DS has been deliberately sabotaged as means to "persuade" people to sell at DAZ. They removed a part of it that undermines weight map editing, and "forgot" to tell us about it. We can't get it back unless we become DAZ vendors. That was a low blow....
Leana
Enthusiast
The changes in rigging methods have not been made only to be closer to industry standard rigging, it was also because they wanted to introduce the face bones for expressions. Rigging those with TriAx would have been a nightmare and would have made the figure use huge amounts of RAM by itself.
Well, you see, Pauline and Maisie have both been rigged with 3 maps per joint, and they have facial bones that work well. But perhaps my biggest question is - since when this market cares for what other applications use for rigging? Isn't that why both Poser and DS have exporting options to multiple industry standards like Colada and FBX?
in addition, people may have perhaps forgotten that 3 maps per joint was an improvement over single map rigging? Consider that DAZ has won an award for TriAx, but not for general maps. There is a reason for that, and it's because TriAx is better for CAs to work with, giving us more control over the process. I suspect the only reason DAZ has downgraded their rigging was yet another attempt to get into the gaming market, which as far as I know, couldn't care less about Poser or DS. The content licensing from the stores get in the way.
Leana
Enthusiast
I don't say it was the best choice, simply that when G3F was released MallenLane said it was one of the reasons he didn't feel TriAx was adequate for G3F rigging and switched to dual quaternion rigging.
I've never used Pauline or Maisie, I don't have P11 (bought a few versions on sale along the years but I never really liked working in Poser, so I stopped at P10). Do they have as many facial bones as G3?
I've never used Pauline or Maisie, I don't have P11 (bought a few versions on sale along the years but I never really liked working in Poser, so I stopped at P10). Do they have as many facial bones as G3?
I am not sure how many bones each figure has on their faces, but I can tell from experience that 1 map per joint direction is always going to be better than 1-fits-all. Like I said, 3 maps per joint was introduced to *resolve* all the issues we used to have in the past with a single map to handle all joint rotations. Single map, in a nutshell, is when we fix one joint rotation and ruin the other two. Now rinse and repeat until you can get a compromise where all 3 rotations work to some extend without ruining [too much] the others.
This is why Genesis 3 and 8 have SO MANY JCMs all over the body - to compensate for the accumulated compromises of using a single map per joint. It's an inferior rigging compensated with loads of JCMs. And consider that lots of JCMs was exactly what killed their Millennium 3 figures, being later replaced by Millennium 4 figures without a single JCM in their body. From that experience we already know that JCMs are NEVER a good thing when used in excess.
Therefore Genesis 3 and later are an accumulation of BAD ideas compensated by yet more BAD ideas that have a history of having already failed in the past. Regular users don't have to deal with any of what's under the hood, though. The problems fall on the laps of CAs, who are the ones who have to actually deal with it.
This is why Genesis 3 and 8 have SO MANY JCMs all over the body - to compensate for the accumulated compromises of using a single map per joint. It's an inferior rigging compensated with loads of JCMs. And consider that lots of JCMs was exactly what killed their Millennium 3 figures, being later replaced by Millennium 4 figures without a single JCM in their body. From that experience we already know that JCMs are NEVER a good thing when used in excess.
Therefore Genesis 3 and later are an accumulation of BAD ideas compensated by yet more BAD ideas that have a history of having already failed in the past. Regular users don't have to deal with any of what's under the hood, though. The problems fall on the laps of CAs, who are the ones who have to actually deal with it.