Rigging for G3F and G8F (general weights)

[Ken1171]

I've got commissioned to create a long skirt for G3F, and this is the first time I am working with the new dual quaternion with general weights instead of TriAx. My problem has been with finishing the thigh bend and side-side (it's the same map), and when I edit the "Twist", which is on a different bone, it destroys what I previously did on Bend and Side-Side.

This doesn't make sense - they are different bones, and different weight maps. I must be missing something, since this is not TriAx anymore. First thing I've noticed was that the Twist bone from the thigh didn't have a weight map on the skirt. I created one and then painted the weights on "Left Thigh Twist". When I am done, the weight map from "Left Thigh Bend" is all messed up.

Why does this happen? Aren't these maps from different joints ("Left Thigh Bend" and "Left Thigh Twist")? This is in DS 4.8. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Pendraia]

Sorry I don't know any more than you about the dual quaternion mapping. I mainly use triax for Dawn and haven't done any clothing for Genesis 3 only morphs.

Have you tried using the transfer utility and seen what that gives you in terms of bones? Maybe it needs something specific in the naming?

 

[Ken1171]

I have used the Transfer Utility to get the bones in place. The problem is how to paint one weight map without destroying the other. G3 and G8 have 2 thigh bones on each leg - one for bending and side-side, and one just for twisting. This splits the thigh weights into 2 separate maps. Whenever I edit one, it destroys the other. This doesn't make sense. These are 2 separate bones - how can editing weights on one alter the other? I must be missing something, since this is a new rigging system.

 

[Pendraia]

This is the channel for Josh Darling...he does some great tutorial on DS but it looks like he only goes up to V6 with rigging
josh darling rigging - YouTube

or there are some more here that I found when I searched on you tube for rigging in DS with quaternion...
rigging in Daz studio quaternion - YouTube

Hope there is something here that is useful...

Another thing you could try is messaging SickleYield on DA. She has always been very helpful and provided lots of tutorials on how to do stuff in DS. She is a really nice person and it couldn't hurt to ask.

 

[Ken1171]

Thank you, Pen! This should be very helpful! The rigging video is using Genesis 3, which should include what I need to know.

 

[Pendraia]

Glad I could help. If stuck I always look at Josh's channel first.

 

[Ken1171]

His video covers exactly the thing I wanted, which is rigging a G3F skirt, but he doesn't touch weight maps. He just used Auto-Fit.

 

[Pendraia]

Has it helped you to finish your project? If not let me know and I'll see if i can find something else.

 

[Ken1171]

Not really - my doubt was on weight maps, and he only used Auto-Fit. The title was rather misleading. I am stuck on the general weight map. Genesis 3 has 2 joints on the tights, and that's where my problem is. There is 1 map per joint, but editing one affects the other.

 

[Pendraia]

Hmm... I'm going out shortly but when I get back I'll have a look and see if i can find anything.

 

[Ken1171]

Thanks, Pen! I am lucky the guys who commissioned me is very understanding about these things.

 

[Pendraia]

Okay...I had a look.

Most of what I found are for sale

This one I have and I'm going to watch and see if it talks about what you're looking for.

The arki ones listed here are also recent as I considered doing them but couldn't afford them at the time.

Digital Art Live | 3D Models and 3D Software by Daz 3D

I also have pm'ed Sickle at DA and asked her if she has any tutorials that she has done on weight mapping for Genesis 3 or above...she may not have as she is tending not to make clothing at the moment. Hopefully she may already have something somewhere about this.

Off to watch the Esha one as I still haven't watched it all the way through.

 

[Pendraia]

Okay...get a reply back from Sickle and she suggested Esha and Arki's tutorials. Just opening up the tutorial I have from Esha if I can find what you need on it you may want to pick it up. It's showing as 50% off at the moment.

 

[Pendraia]

She does discuss left thigh bend and twist and how they can only have one weight map.

She discusses how you need to find out which of the bones has the problem(test by moving them around) and the one that the problem appears on is the one you need to fix. She also mentions how JCM's automatically correct the figure and that there is a developer tool kit that you need to install to be able to turn the JCM off and on. I'm not sure where you would get the tool kit from. She specifically mentioned the bones you were having difficulties with.

Apparently you need to get it right with the JCM's switched off. If you get poke thru you need to try and use weight mapping to fix it first. JCM's are not transferred with the transfer utility. Studio creates a matching morph on the fly.

1. switch of JCM's
2. try and make the weight maps as perfect as possible with them switched off.
3. When finished turn the jcm's back on and if problems you will need to create custom jcm's by sending it to your modeller. Esha uses ZBrush.



Don't know if that is what you need...

 

[Ken1171]

Wow thank you! That sounds about what I needed to know. The thighs have 2 bones, but there is only 1 weight map. When I looked at the maps, they were definitely different, which makes me suspect I was not supposed to have created a new map for the thigh "twist" bone. There wasn't one at first, so I created one myself. What happens is that it becomes basically impossible to have a single weight map that resolves bending in 3 axes. If I fix bend, it breaks side-side and Twist. If I fix Side-Side, it breaks Bend and Twist. If I fix Twist, it breaks the other two. I have tried for days, and it was impossible.

Genesis 3 and 8 have TONS of JCMs all over the place, similar to how it was with Millennium 3 figures (oh, the horror!). So maybe the secret would be to first disable them, which like you said, is not something DS can do on its own. That's the trap I was falling for when trying to rig for G3 and G8. DAZ trashed something good - TriAx - in favor of inferior game engine rigging to please a market that has nothing to do with us. First they distanced themselves from Poser, and now from the DS market. They are catering for the gaming industry. I suppose we, the hobbyists, don't make them enough money. With the inferior rigging, the only reason Genesis can pose well is because of massive use of JCMs all over the place. We are back to the days of Mil3 figures, the least successful from the DAZ lineup.

I have to find out how to disable JCMs in DS now. By what you said, they are automatically generated even if the clothing has none. If I got this right, even though there are 2 bones on thigh, we can only use the first one (bend) for all weight map purposes. I fail to see this is better (for us) than TriAx, but I guess this is mandatory for game engine compatibility. This also explain the losses in topology fidelity from Genesis 2 to 3, and even more from 3 to 8. All for the good of game engine compatibility. Sounds like we are not in 1st place in their priorities anymore.

 

[Ken1171]

I have purchased Esha's tutorials you have recommended while taking advantage of the 50% off promo. They made a rigging puzzle out of it this time, and I am not doing to figure it out by trial and error. Time to go back to school before I can continue the DS commissions.

 

[Pendraia]

So glad I could help.

Good idea Ken...esha will explain it much better than I can.

I did post on the forums about the developer kit that is mentioned and Richard has responded that it is most likely a pa thing.

An alternative would be to go into the current section of the parameter tab and manually turn them off.

You are not the first I've seen post that about games and priorities...I think it might be more about expanding than excluding though it would require some compromising to achieve that.

 

[Ken1171]

If the compromise is to bring weight map rigging back to the stone age of game engines, then I think it's too much. There is a reason why Poser and TriAx use 3 maps per joint - it resolves a rigging problem we had with single maps. The same reason why DAZ won a tech award for TriAx, but not for this. It's a step back to how rigging was 20 years ago. This is what I call leveling by the lowest denominator, where we are the ones pulling the short stick.

 

[Pendraia]

I don't know enough to comment about that Ken. I wish I did.

 

[Ken1171]

That's alright, I am just disappointed with DAZ. I started rigging with single maps decades ago, until Poser came up with 3 per joint, which *greatly* simplified the process. Going back to single maps after this long doesn't make sense, unless DAZ is turning into a game assets store. And if it does, Poser/DS license restrictions would not allow it, so it all seems pointless if you know what I mean.