Question about what is probably a dumb idea...

[McGyver]

DISCLAIMER: The following post may be too long.
Do read it if you want to stay awake, have a short attention span, are bleeding profusely or have a small bladder.
If you don't like reading or are running out of blood, but still want to know the question, skip down to the bottom where it says "ACTUAL QUESTION"


And... It's a moot point too!
The question is about a post/suggestion I was going to make.
It's at a different site, not here... the one with a rainbow octopus logo.

Background:
I don't post much there anymore and I really gave up trying to help out people who ask questions...
One of the reasons I stopped trying to help is because I mainly responded to questions where the OP was clearly being misunderstood.
And more often then not the post I'd make trying to clarify what exactly the person was asking, would get buried in responses to a question that was not asked.
It's kinda funny sometimes because I'd wonder if people were actually reading more then half a sentence into the OP and then just assuming the rest.
But whatever...
I also gave up making suggestions there because it's pointless... If there is a problem, it's going to remain a problem and people are either going to defend it or get pissed off because nothing is being done about it.
Which I have to say is a totally different environment here since 99% of the time LisaB or Chris will respond to something like that... Granted the other place has more traffic and is "bigger", but it's really nice to know you are heard or that there is someone minding the store who cares.
Anyway...

The point was I had noticed quite a while ago as DS grew more complex that some of the products there were not for beginners... Particularly certain shaders, materials and plugins etc...
Hell, even some characters.
People would often post they bought a product and needed help using it... You'd see they had like 3-4 posts to their credit, so most likely they were a noob.
Often from the answers you would see that the method was kind of complicated and even well known forum people would respond with statements like "gee, I didn't know that, that's good to know..."
How is a noob or even an intermediate level user supposed to know something is complicated to use or get the same results in the promo?
It's kinda disappointing to fiddle around with something amazing looking and then find out you need another three years of understanding and three thousand dollars worth of computer more to be able use properly.
Today I read a thread where someone was asking how to use a product and one of the answers, though helpful, concluded with something to the effect of "you have to learn how to use these things first, this is a complicated effect and you need more experience"... Which was entirely accurate.
So I looked up the product and right in the main promo is the effect the OP was trying to achieve...
There is no indication this requires much know how or is potentially resource intensive.
How is a noob or beginner supposed know this is not as simple as it looks?

So here is the idea I'm never going to suggest to anyone, but I'm curious if it's totally batsnot insane or has some slight merit.

ACTUAL QUESTION:

Would it have helped you when you were new to 3D if certain products had a skill level rating?
How about a resource usage rating?
Skill level would be simple... Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced... I'd imagine the vendor should know enough to honestly predict or suggest that.
Resource usage would probably be harder to gauge, but basically Low, Medium and Intense...



So that's it... Thanks for your participation and have a great day!

 

[Desertsilver]

First, I want to say how strange it is to me that so many forums will have immediate negative feed back if the post is more than a short paragraph. Or just comments like : wall o text, did not read. I think this way of shaming to limit communication adds to the problem you noted; people not answering the actual question asked!

Yes to the first question. I am a painter with no knack for computers. I got Daz to use when I could not afford live models. I excitedly downloaded it, bought some content, tried desperately to follow the tutorials and after a week of embarrassed frustration uninstalled it for 2 years!!

Resource usage would also be really helpful. My first computer was so bogged down by Studio that it was impossible to move in the view port- everything kept jumping around or lagging. Posing was worse than a root canal.

 

[Satira Capriccio]

I don't think it's a dumb idea at all. And I managed not to fall asleep or lose too much blood reading the wall of text :wink:

The only thing that confused me was the rainbow octopus logo. Probably because I don't visit many sites other than HiveWire.

I really really vaguely think I may have encountered a product or perhaps two where there was a note on the product page that lower end computers might have problems with the product. But I could be imagining that too.

I do think it would be helpful to let a customer know when a product might require a bit more knowledge than entry level. I also think these products should include information ... either in a pdf or in the ReadMe ... on how to use the product ... successfully. A note on the product page where the customer can find that information would also be helpful. I'd hate to see someone avoid a product because it's Intermediate or Advanced and they are a Beginner when with instruction, they could use the product (and learn something cool too).

If a product is a bit heavy on the resources, providing tips in a ReadMe on how to get around computer limitations would be helpful too. For example, if a computer bogs down posing a character, it might help to switch to a wireframe view. I'm sure others can think of even more tips (I worked 9.5 hours today instead of 7.5 because of a last minute problem that had to be resolved ... so I'm massively brain dead)

 

[Willowisp]

Rainbow octopus LOL I always saw it as a grabby hand

I don't think your questions are stupid at all, on the contrary I find your ideas to be quite useful

 

[Mythocentric]

Probably my inner Grinch speaking here, but how many providers would actually tell you about any special considerations for use if it resulted in fewer sales?

 

[kobaltkween]

Hmmmm.

In my experience, it's not exactly about being a beginner or not. It's about knowing how to do the particular thing I want to do. I differentiate because I what I find takes time and effort is getting to the particular kernel of information I need to answer my specific question.

I think that while good documentation is worth its (printed) weight in gold, someone who can answer specific questions directly is worth their own weight in platinum and diamonds. Also, I find it's _much_ easier to walk someone through the task in real time, letting them ask specific questions and get specific answers as you go.

Me, I had no problem with the first dynamic clothing tutorial I found. That let me go off and running. But most people I know had to try it several times, looking at several different versions of instructions, before they finally got the process down. And I know the main time I was successful was actually over chat, answering only the specfic questions that came up.

It's really easy for most people to go from specific to general. That's basically how babies learn. But when you start with the content creator instead of with user requests, the user has to figure out how to apply the content creator's generalized instruction to their specific problem. With totally unfamiliar tasks, that often doesn't work.

I think some sort of system where people can ask specific content questions/requests, and other people can make quick tutorials in response would be amazing and possibly help this problem. But I have no clue how that would even work. Actually, yes, I do, but it wouldn't be simple to write and I don't know of any CMS add-on that does that task.

 

[kobaltkween]

Probably my inner Grinch speaking here, but how many providers would actually tell you about any special considerations for use if it resulted in fewer sales?

I think you're right if all we're talking about is a label that says: this is hard to use. And frankly, I don't think that would serve customers, because it's almost impossible to predict what would be hard for someone. It really depends on what they're trying to achieve. Customers who found a tool easier than labeled would probably feel cheated of complexity and features, and customers who found a tool harder than labeled might be angry at the implication that their experience was "wrong."

I think vendors of products people tend to find difficult would be happy to give their customers the information they need to use what they're selling. That's more likely to create more sales. Customers are likely to avoid obviously complex products without labels. Confused and possibly frustrated early adopters of seemingly simple products are likely to drive off new sales when they post to forums.

Most merchants are just individuals who are selling what they like to create. The people who make complex items only do it because that's what they like to make. Material sets with hundreds of the same material in different hues and simple patterns will _always_ sell better than my Essential Materials that can take any color or textures you want of several totally different types of materials. But I'm not interested in coming up with 100+ colors of one to three types of materials.

People who are able to focus on sales in terms of volume tend to make simple, useful items with a set form and consistent but plentiful one-click options. Complex items in this community are a labor of love, because the likelihood that people will pay enough for the extra work as compared to the simple item is pretty low. Customers tend to value one-click simplicity over freedom to make their own choices. I find most people just can't visualize possibilities given tools or options (I'm a really visual person who always "sees" scenarios instinctively, so I often have to adjust for that), so it would be absolutely _invaluable_ marketing to demonstrate how a complex tool solves real world customer problems.

 

[RAMWolff]

First, I want to say how strange it is to me that so many forums will have immediate negative feed back if the post is more than a short paragraph. Or just comments like : wall o text, did not read. I think this way of shaming to limit communication adds to the problem you noted; people not answering the actual question asked!

Yes to the first question. I am a painter with no knack for computers. I got Daz to use when I could not afford live models. I excitedly downloaded it, bought some content, tried desperately to follow the tutorials and after a week of embarrassed frustration uninstalled it for 2 years!!

Resource usage would also be really helpful. My first computer was so bogged down by Studio that it was impossible to move in the view port- everything kept jumping around or lagging. Posing was worse than a root canal.

How strange. I back in the day, over a decade ago now I was looking for "Free Models" on I THINK Google or maybe it was another search engine way back then and up popped DAZ Studio comes with free models... I was like "What is a DAZ Studio?" At the time I was creating this very complex figure in Xara, which is a vector program, and was stuck on some perspective issue. I thought at the time "I must be the only artist out there that fell for this" but for me and my curious mind I was hooked. Back then it was still in beta and very light on system resources so my computer worked fine for running it. As it grew and grew more complex and needed more system resources I got into building my own computers so I could build it cheaper with higher end hardware that would have costed me twice that for a pre-built computer. These days I just throw it on a credit card and pay it off and I'm quite happy with the company I buy from as I can get a base and change everything from the case to all the internals I want, even the mother board.

Needless to day I had a huge system crash about 7 years back and MOST of my 2D works from Xara and Photoshop were lost. I did allot of crying but I guess it was time to let all that go.... I still miss allot of those works though, the work files were hundreds and hundreds of hours of creative work. I did this one painting in Photoshop of the X-Men's Phoenix that was just lovely. I got lots of compliments on it.... stuff like that just kills me to think about loosing it... it's like the house was on fire and all the precious art work went up in flames inside..... just like that. You move on but a part of you doesn't recover fully from that.

When I get stuck on things in DAZ Studio I ask here and over there. Sometimes I get help and like many folks my questions go unanswered. So I rely on Google and YouTube and often times I get the needed answers to my questions and often times, esp over there, where I can either be flat out ignored or my question is just one of many that got forgotten, I'll go in with my found answer and post it in case anyone else needs the info. Allot of the times I get a thank you from some other poor soul looking for similar help! Not sure what's with some folks. I guess they think just because the join a forum they are automatically supposed to know ENOUGH about a given program so they don't ask "stupid questions" but for me there are NO STUPID QUESTIONS... just sometimes you get the cold shoulder from a self righteous moron that probably has the needed info but isn't kind enough to share it.

 

[esha]

You know, this is an interesting point.
As a vendor, I always try to make things easy for my customers but of course in some cases things can get quite complicated, no matter what you do. I think your suggestions has merits. However, I see several difficulties:

1) I often don't know what people will find difficult. I work with 3D software on a daily basis. Some things have become second nature for me, so that I don't even think of mentioning them. I'd need testers with various skill levels and ask them for feedback to find out what might be considered too complicated. That procedure makes sense for complex products with a long development time, like scripts or plugins, but it's just too impractical for the everyday product.

2) What is perceived as difficult differs from person to person. Even a general tag like Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced will not really help. I do consider myself an advanced user, but there are areas, like animation for example, where I have practically no experience so in these areas I'd be on Beginner level. I guess every user has his/her strong areas and weaker ones. And sometimes it's really hard to clarify in the product description at what skill level the product is targeted.

3) It also depends on what you want to do with a product. Take a dynamic Poser dress, for example. Draping it around a simple standing pose and rendering that for a still render is rather easy. The same dress on a figure in a complicated sitting pose, interacting with several props, and rendered as an animation and not a still - that can get really complex and rather difficult to pull off. So, the same product can be easy to use or very complicated, depending on what you want to do with it. What tag should the vendor put onto such a product?

4) Regarding system resources: I know that things which push my system to its limits will not run on weaker systems. But if something runs smoothly on my system, how could I know how much weaker the hardware can be before it starts to get sluggish? I'd need several different systems to test on, which would be very time-consuming (see also Point 1)...

I also gave up making suggestions there because it's pointless...

I feel with you. I've also seen the things you described so aptly, over and over again in various forums
Another interesting thing is when the answers to a post are all correct and helpful, but the person asking the question doesn't accept any of them because they're so fixated on doing it their own way (which doesn't work) that they don't even want to try any other methods...

 

[Hornet3d]

It is certainly an interesting question and does highlight a problem, I suspect it is a growing problem because products can be more complex now. There also does not seem to be the same willingness/opportunity to help today as there was when I started out. There are less forums and, in many so many questions turn into flame wars. I have certainly given up trying to help as I felt I could not win whatever I said. The suggestion that someone new to the hobby might be best of trying trying a free program before spending a fairly substantial amount of money had people claiming I was a fan boy of some camp, while suggesting they use free or cheap figures rather than the latest G on the block (at least until they found what they wanted to do with their are, had others claiming I was in an opposing camp. Even the most basic responses where often responded to suggesting I had some hidden agenda.

Still that was a long time ago and since finding Hivewire my visits to other forums have dwindled to the point now I just don't go anywhere else.

Anyway, back to the question, I am not sure beginner, Intermediate and Advance would work, it might, I am just not sure. What might help is some guidance of the skills required, for example if a promo for a dynamic dress shows a complex pose a comment along the lines that a good working knowledge of the cloth room would be needed to duplicate said promo. This approach may also not work but at least it specifies some of the skills required which is not necessarily true with terms like beginner.