Opposable Thumbs

[Hornet3d]

I am late to this threads, as usual, but I agree with many here that I do not like the fake reflections in the eyes and that real reflections make a render look more believable. Trying to find a set of eyes without burnt in reflections seems to be difficult and with V4 I had one set that had images for each part of eye and none of the images included any burnt in reflections. When I started using Dawn one of the first things I went looking for is a decent set of eyes with no reflections but finding any sort of eye textures for Dawn seemed difficult. Early on I purchased Fabiana's Oriana character and while the reflections are not real the reflections included are generated from the eyes surface and not added to the image map for the iris which is often the case. In my Dawn character I have used the image map from Oriana and only add reflection in cornea and lacirmal materials. The big problem with the highlights burnt into the image mp is that they do not, quite literally, reflect the position or shape of the lights in the scene. For distant shots of a figure this may not be an issue, although at some distances I believe the viewer senses something is not right. For portraits, which many of you will know is a favorite of mine, it is very important and as they are essentially studio shots they reflect the type and position of the lights, very important if you want the eyes to 'follow you around the room'. In most cases for me lighting is a couple of spots and I can place the highlight just where I want by moving the lights. Most my scenes otherwise are indoors and here I again want the eyes to reflect the lighiting for instance if the lighting is from a strip light above say from a corridor lighting panel a round bright highlight does not look right.

Which brings me nicely to Kit Bashing, for some this is just a question of using different clothes such as matching a skirt from one product with a jacket from another, and why shouldn't that be the definition. For me, kit bashing is similar but much wider, I consider my Dawn character to be kit bashed as the figure uses the eyes from one product, the skin texture from another and god knows how many morphs from different sets. The whole is made up from many different parts so I regard it as coming from a kit but then I always have a simple outlook on these sort of things. Comes from having a simple mind I guess.

 

[StudioMartillo]

I got an early start with kitbashing. Late 1950's. The models would come with lots of optional bits for customising. Especially car models, which were my favorites.
After building quite a few kits it became possible to do more and more custom jobs.
An exacto knife and little mini torch for softening the plastic and the cars could be chopped, channeled, raised, raked and fit to other body parts.
Then slot cars came along and I would adapt my favorite models to slot car chassis.
Now I use Lightwave for an exacto knife. Haven't cut my thumbs off yet so it seems safe enough.
It must be OK to broaden the definition since it got broader the first time it was applied to CG.

 

[Dakorillon (IMArts)]

Very cool! I used to love to do car and plane models! I had the Invisible Woman, which you couldn't do a lot to kit bash with, and I wanted the Invisible Horse, so bad. My parents used to build Remote Controlled Airplanes, and I got a put together a simpler Tethered Plane. The also built Balsam Gliders. But, I never stuck with it to the point of kit-bashing.

 

[StudioMartillo]

There was once a toy for model making called Vacu-Form. It was about the right size for scale models and came with sheets of plastic to use.
There was a port that you put a regular vacuum cleaner hose into.
You had to carve a small sculpture that the plastic could rap over. Put the plastic over that. Turn on the heat till the plastic drooped down...
and then turn on the vacuum.
I got one of those but I wrecked everything I tried to make. The sculpting took a lot of skill I never did develop.
Probably can't get toys like that now. But we have this virtual world you can make things for no end without using up materials.
Better still.

 

[Hornet3d]

Thought I would try and demonstrate what I was trying to describe in my last post, simple set up with one infinite light and a panel placed in front of the figure set with the ambient to 10 so the panel will glow and represent the light from a window.

The highlights in the eye are very different than if they were burnt into the image map used in the eye.

This is a low resolution render but even here it can be seen that the reflection is oblong rather than round. Not only that the reflection is placed in a different point in each eye, this difference will vary on the position of the head and how far the figure is from the source of the light. With burnt in highlights the reflection is often in the same position in each eye.

All this is of no importance, of course, if you cannot see the eyes in a render but for close-ups it helps the place the figure in the scene being portrayed.

 

[Dakorillon (IMArts)]

I totally agree!
I have done the burnt highlights before, and did some square, some round, some with bars, etc. But, no, you can't get the true look of the reflection in that time and place correctly if it's just a "spot" with no other reference. Thanks for the visual, though, it's good to see we are on the same track.

 

[Hornet3d]

I totally agree!
I have done the burnt highlights before, and did some square, some round, some with bars, etc. But, no, you can't get the true look of the reflection in that time and place correctly if it's just a "spot" with no other reference. Thanks for the visual, though, it's good to see we are on the same track.

Very good idea and setting up the burnt highlights as you suggest is certainly one option and would work in many instances but unfortunately most commercial eyes sets only have a single option and more often than not consist of a simple white spot. There are some products that have more complex reflections that can work but some are so complex it is a wonder where they could possibly be used. The advantage of setting up true reflections, or more accurate at least, is that once done the same figure can be used in any environment without having to play with image maps to try and fake it.

 

[StudioMartillo]

But, but why does it always have to be a window? Why not A BALL OF FIRE! Meow?

 

[Dakorillon (IMArts)]

lol! I was actually thinking about seeing if I could get the cornea to do some reflections like that, treelines, windows, spotlights, lightning, etc. Don't know if I can . But, currently, the cornea materials are transparent, so I thought it might be a usable possibility. Haven't played with it yet. Been a busy week.

 

[Hornet3d]

But, but why does it always have to be a window? Why not A BALL OF FIRE! Meow?

View attachment 23407

Good question and a simple reply - it doesn't. I used a window as the simplest way demonstrate the difference between highlights burnt into an image map in the materials and reflection added to the eye surface. With the correct lighting far more complex reflections than windows would be possible.

 

[StudioMartillo]

Drama would be my inspiration for placing a foreground in the scene, the sole purpose of which is to cast a reflection in the eyes.
Normally, not using binoculars, if I were in a position to see the eyes up close the only sparkle in the eyes would be the reflection of my radiant charisma.
Of course then I would have to contrive the 'image of radiant charisma'. Probably turn in to another Vacu-Form scenario.
Obviously a certain amount of vacuum would be involved.

 

[Hornet3d]

Another aspect of the reflection from the surface of the eyes is that the reflection itself is distorted by the curvature of the eye, something else that is not replicated with burnt in highlights. Here the reflection of a display the figure is studying is reflected and, although in a lowish resolution, the distortion is evident.

I addition to the curvature there is a cloud node plugged into the bump of the cronea in an attempt to replicate the wet nature of the eye. While all these little tweaks seem to be a bit finicky, subconsciously we get a great deal of information when we look in someone's eyes and I honestly believe reflections in the eyes makes many close up renders more credible than by using burnt in highlights.

 

[Hornet3d]

Drama would be my inspiration for placing a foreground in the scene, the sole purpose of which is to cast a reflection in the eyes.
Normally, not using binoculars, if I were in a position to see the eyes up close the only sparkle in the eyes would be the reflection of my radiant charisma.
Of course then I would have to contrive the 'image of radiant charisma'. Probably turn in to another Vacu-Form scenario.
Obviously a certain amount of vacuum would be involved.

Once you understand the limitations of burnt in highlights it opens up a whole new range of options but it does not mean that burnt in highlights should never be used. Eyes with no highlights at all look dull and lifeless and, unless that is your intent, any highlights will negate this effect. I am certainly not saying reflections will be important in every case but knowing that there is an alternative allows the artist to make their on decision. This could be helped if vendors making eye sets were to work in much the same way as Fabiana in the set I have used in that there are refection options available but by not including them in the image map of of the iris the artist has the option. Trying to paint out the highlights on an image map is not that easy and it should not be too difficult if the vendor wants to use this method that two maps be included one with highlights and one without, after all they must be starting with a image without to begin with.

 

[Dakorillon (IMArts)]

Excellent examples and reasonings!

 

[Hornet3d]

Excellent examples and reasonings!

Thanks you as you can probably tell eye reflections are important to be as I became disappointed with the burnt in highlights and the restrictions they can impose. I also tend to be a little different from the norm and for many years I have been trying to get away from the teenage to mid twenty model type figures looking for a more mature looking figure. My quest started many years ago with V4 and I did have some success but when I started with Dawn I had there was a brief step backwards for a while. Thanks to some excellent skin resources from 3Dream and a character from Fabiana along with what I had learnt playing with V4 I was able to come up with a Dawn based character I was happy with. It was Fabiana's use of an iris image map without the highlights that allowed me to come up with what I have. I am always searching for improvements so I like putting little tests like this out there in the hope better minds than mine might become interested and try their own methods.

 

[StudioMartillo]

I like the way Dusk's thumbs are rigged.
Much more natural than the M4 character.
I converted some poses from M4 to Dusk and the thumbs were positioned quite differently.
But they are easy to pose so the conversion went quickly.